Flaws of Arminianism

[robycop3]

Sportzz Fanzz, the simple truth is that God gave free will to every being He created, from man to cherubim. Thus, Satan CHOSE to rebel; he was not made imperfect. If God had wanted robots who couldn't do anything but His will, He could easily have made them.

Remember, Jesus said He knocks at the door. We must CHOOSE to get up & let Him in. He does not kick the door down.

 

[AustinC]

Sportzz Fanzz, the simple truth is that God gave free will to every being He created, from man to cherubim. Thus, Satan CHOSE to rebel; he was not made imperfect. If God had wanted robots who couldn't do anything but His will, He could easily have made them.

Remember, Jesus said He knocks at the door. We must CHOOSE to get up & let Him in. He does not kick the door down.

This would only be true if God was NOT a covenant making God.
But, God is a covenant making God and God knows exactly whom he has chosen in His covenant (will).

Have you ever created a will? If so, you know that you make the decision regarding to whom your possessions go. The recipient may not even know they are going to receive an inheritance. They find out when the will is read.
So it is with the New Covenant (covenant and will are the same Greek word). God the Son died, thus setting off the will (covenant) that God the Son had drawn up for the adopted children of God (Ephesians 1) so that they would receive the inheritance of their adoption, which was secured before the foundation of the world.

So, your claim is not correct and the Bible shows you why you are not correct.

Hebrews 9:15-17,24-28

That is why he is the one who mediates a new covenant between God and people, so that all who are called can receive the eternal inheritance God has promised them. For Christ died to set them free from the penalty of the sins they had committed under that first covenant. Now when someone leaves a will, it is necessary to prove that the person who made it is dead. The will goes into effect only after the person’s death. While the person who made it is still alive, the will cannot be put into effect.

For Christ did not enter into a holy place made with human hands, which was only a copy of the true one in heaven. He entered into heaven itself to appear now before God on our behalf. And he did not enter heaven to offer himself again and again, like the high priest here on earth who enters the Most Holy Place year after year with the blood of an animal. If that had been necessary, Christ would have had to die again and again, ever since the world began. But now, once for all time, he has appeared at the end of the age to remove sin by his own death as a sacrifice. And just as each person is destined to die once and after that comes judgment, so also Christ died once for all time as a sacrifice to take away the sins of many people. He will come again, not to deal with our sins, but to bring salvation to all who are eagerly waiting for him.

 

[DaveXR650]

Nothing I wrote conflicts with any scripture, whereas your position appears to nullify verse after verse.

Honestly Van, I don't think you have developed a coherent position. Your OP is all over the place and since you respond to everyone with insults and charges you're not really interested in a discussion.

 

[robycop3]

This would only be true if God was NOT a covenant making God.
But, God is a covenant making God and God knows exactly whom he has chosen in His covenant (will).

Have you ever created a will? If so, you know that you make the decision regarding to whom your possessions go. The recipient may not even know they are going to receive an inheritance. They find out when the will is read.
So it is with the New Covenant (covenant and will are the same Greek word). God the Son died, thus setting off the will (covenant) that God the Son had drawn up for the adopted children of God (Ephesians 1) so that they would receive the inheritance of their adoption, which was secured before the foundation of the world.

So, your claim is not correct and the Bible shows you why you are not correct.

Hebrews 9:15-17,24-28

That is why he is the one who mediates a new covenant between God and people, so that all who are called can receive the eternal inheritance God has promised them. For Christ died to set them free from the penalty of the sins they had committed under that first covenant. Now when someone leaves a will, it is necessary to prove that the person who made it is dead. The will goes into effect only after the person’s death. While the person who made it is still alive, the will cannot be put into effect.

For Christ did not enter into a holy place made with human hands, which was only a copy of the true one in heaven. He entered into heaven itself to appear now before God on our behalf. And he did not enter heaven to offer himself again and again, like the high priest here on earth who enters the Most Holy Place year after year with the blood of an animal. If that had been necessary, Christ would have had to die again and again, ever since the world began. But now, once for all time, he has appeared at the end of the age to remove sin by his own death as a sacrifice. And just as each person is destined to die once and after that comes judgment, so also Christ died once for all time as a sacrifice to take away the sins of many people. He will come again, not to deal with our sins, but to bring salvation to all who are eagerly waiting for him.

Nupe! The salvation verses of Scripture are full of "whoever"s

If everyone was predestinated, no matter what, with no chance to change their status, there'd be no need for Bibles, preachers, or churches.

Salvation is open to all living.

 

[Van]

Honestly Van, I don't think you have developed a coherent position. Your OP is all over the place and since you respond to everyone with insults and charges you're not really interested in a discussion.

I don't think you know what the word "honestly" means. You made up incoherence from whole cloth, but my position is completely coherent. And it is also consistent with scripture, whereas Arminianism is not.

You misrepresented my views, then claim I am casting insults when I point out, using quotes, your malfeasance.

Finally I am interested in "honest" discussion, where my views are presented and discussed accurately.

 

[Van]

We were made sinners. Does that mean we became sinners when we sinned? Of course not.

Calvinists claim being spiritually dead means having total spiritual inability. But, again, that is obviously false doctrine, as the people of Matthew 23:13 had some spiritual ability even though being spiritually dead. I define being spiritually dead as being spiritually separated from our holy God because the lost are unholy. Here it is in a nutshell - separated from God = spiritually dead, united with God, (i.e. together with God) results in being made "alive" thus not spiritually dead.

Since the lost have limited spiritual ability, able to understand spiritual milk but not spiritual solid food, there is no basis for the invention of "irresistible grace" or "prevenient grace" to overcome a non-existent condition.

Our individual election is by way of our faith as credited by God. Numerous verses clearly point to our being chosen for salvation through or by way of our faith being credited as righteousness. 2 Thessalonians 2:13, James 2:5, etc.

Arminianism is correct or nearly correct on at least two points, Christ died for all humanity and God's choice of individuals for salvation is conditioned on accepting their faith, not foreseen faith.

Matthew 23:13 demonstrates that the unregenerate can believe in God and seek God yet be turned away by false teachings.

Christ died for all mankind (1 Timothy 2:6), becoming the propitiation (means of salvation) for the whole world (1 John 2:2), but only those who God credits their faith in Christ as righteousness (Romans 4:4-5; 4:23-24) are then spiritually placed in Christ by God (1 Corinthians 1:30), and receive the reconciliation provided by Christ’s sacrifice (Romans 5:10-11). Thus we are saved by grace through faith and not by the will or actions of men. Ephesians 2:8-9.

 

[DaveXR650]

We were made sinners. Does that mean we became sinners when we sinned? Of course not.

Do you agree then that there was a "fall" as they call it, or was there some original sin? What in your opinion is a mans condition when he is born - having not been able to sin personally yet.

Here it is in a nutshell - separated from God = spiritually dead, united with God, (i.e. together with God) results in being made "alive" thus not spiritually dead.

When you say spiritually dead = separated from God, you are using that in a way that a Calvinist or Arminian will not be able to converse with you because they all are taught that being dead means you can't do anything on your own to help yourself. See below:

Since the lost have limited spiritual ability, able to understand spiritual milk but not spiritual solid food, there is no basis for the invention of "irresistible grace" or "prevenient grace" to overcome a non-existent condition.

Now you say the lost have limited spiritual ability. This will confuse a Calvinist or an Arminian because they think having limited spiritual ability is not possible if you are also spiritually dead.

Our individual election is by way of our faith as credited by God.

If individual election is based on foreseen faith then I think that is an Arminian position. If it's based on faith that you bring from your own ability then how is that election at all. It's based on you.

Arminianism is correct or nearly correct on at least two points, Christ died for all humanity and God's choice of individuals for salvation is conditioned on accepting their faith, not foreseen faith.

Here you say not foreseen faith so I know you don't mean that above. I thought the Arminian position made use of foreseen faith. What do you mean by "accepting their faith"? Is there a possibility that someone will come and not have their faith accepted? Please clarify.

 

[AustinC]

Nupe! The salvation verses of Scripture are full of "whoever"s

If everyone was predestinated, no matter what, with no chance to change their status, there'd be no need for Bibles, preachers, or churches.

Salvation is open to all living.

It seems you have to throw out large passages as not being in the Bible in order to maintain your assertion.
If you accept that God has established a new covenant and that Jeaus as both High Priest and sacrifice made the covenant binding, then you cannot argue for free will.

God wrote the covenant (will) for His children to inherit.
When you write out a will, you specifically name the people who receive an Inheritance. That is exactly what God did.

 

[Van]

Do you agree then that there was a "fall" as they call it, or was there some original sin? What in your opinion is a mans condition when he is born - having not been able to sin personally yet.
SNIP

What a waste, here this disinformation poster asks if I agree there was a fall!!!! I addressed the fall specifically in my posts, so this person has no regard for truth. (See post #19)

 

[DaveXR650]

Van. I really didn't see where you dealt with that in your view. I see where you quoted the Arminian position but I thought that's what the thread was refuting the errors of. I have asked proper questions and tried to treat you with respect on a thread that you started. I just don't understand what it is you are getting at. Post 47 has specific questions using quotes from you so you know where I'm coming from. You come back with one more insult and I'll be reporting it. If you don't want any more conversation with me then say so and that will be it.

 

[Van]

Van. I really didn't see where you dealt with that in your view. I see where you quoted the Arminian position but I thought that's what the thread was refuting the errors of. I have asked proper questions and tried to treat you with respect on a thread that you started. I just don't understand what it is you are getting at. Post 47 has specific questions using quotes from you so you know where I'm coming from. You come back with one more insult and I'll be reporting it. If you don't want any more conversation with me then say so and that will be it.

Your claims are false. You asked if I believed there was a fall. But I cited Romans 5:19 in post #4 and mentioned our fallen condition in post #19. I specifically said we were "made sinners!!!" So you are not trying to ask me about my position, but trying to claim I hold a bogus view of your creation.

 

[Van]

One question seems to be whether God would not credit a person's faith. Why this question is asked is hard to fathom. Were those who had faith and said "Lord, Lord" in Matthew 7 saved? Nope. How about in Matthew 13 and soils #2 and #3? Was their "faith" credited as righteousness? Nope. So why ask the question? To throw up a smokescreen of strawman arguments? Looks like it!

 

[DaveXR650]

Matthew 7 is about workers of lawlessness, not people whose faith was not accepted. Read the context. Matthew 13, OK. I don't think soils 2 and 3 involve faith but you put it in quotes so I accept your explanation.

Look. You started a thread about the errors of Arminianism. I am somewhat familiar with Arminianism, Semi-Pelagianism, Pelagianism, Roman Catholicism , and Calvinism. Just so you know, I tend to be Calvinistic but I think Arminians, Semi-Pelagians, Calvinists, and yes even Catholics can be Christians. I get in trouble on here with the Calvinists for not being dogmatic enough against non-Calvinists. If you believe that everyone has been given by God an ability to hear the gospel and respond with saving faith because of a decision they made of their own free will that is perfectly fine with me. Stop all this "disgusting", "throw up a smokescreen", "strawman arguments", "claiming I hold a bogus view of your creation". I'm not sure what your view is.

 

[Van]

On and on the false claims continue unabated. Did the workers of Matthew 7 carry out ministry? Yes! Why - because they had faith in their beliefs about God. To claim they did not believe disregards their claims they did.

Obviously the poster is not "somewhat" familiar with Semi-Pelagianism, otherwise he would not ascribed the false doctrine to my views.

He recognized I believe scripture does not allow belief in "Total Spiritual Inability." but did not offer support other than Romans 3 which I addressed.
1) If TSI were true (and it is not) then Jesus would not have needed to speak in parables as described in Matthew 13, as they would not have believed.

2) If TSI were true (and it is not) God would not have needed to harden the unbelieving Jews of Romans 11, as they would not have believed.

3) If TSI were true (and it is not) the lost people of Matthew 23:13 would not have been in the process of entering the kingdom, but they were.

4) If TSI were true, the people of Tyre and Sidon (Luke 10:13) would not have repented in response to seeing miracles, but they would have according to Jesus.

Next, the false construct of "saving faith" is once again attributed to me, demonstrating once again no honest effort at actual discussion is being made. Do I believe that "everybody" has the ability to believe the gospel? Did I not mention Matthew 13, which of course includes soil #1 with no ability. No one comes to the Father unless they were drawn by the Father. On and on folkis, one false charge after another.

 

[Van]

DaveXR650 does not know my beliefs, but has attributed false doctrines to me from his first post to his last. See post #3 and post #53

 

[robycop3]

It seems you have to throw out large passages as not being in the Bible in order to maintain your assertion.
If you accept that God has established a new covenant and that Jeaus as both High Priest and sacrifice made the covenant binding, then you cannot argue for free will.

God wrote the covenant (will) for His children to inherit.
When you write out a will, you specifically name the people who receive an Inheritance. That is exactly what God did.

And all living are eligible to become His children.

 

[DaveXR650]

On and on the false claims continue unabated. Did the workers of Matthew 7 carry out ministry? Yes! Why - because they had faith in their beliefs about God. To claim they did not believe disregards their claims they did.

I stand by my view on Matthew 7. And you by mistake I'm sure said it right "they had faith in their beliefs". It's common for people to rely on their belief system and so don't have "saving faith" which is valid whether you like it or not.

Obviously the poster is not "somewhat" familiar with Semi-Pelagianism, otherwise he would not ascribed the false doctrine to my views.

You say this in your post and then go on and describe your semi-Pelagian position perfectly. The idea that there is no such thing as TSI is a semi-Pelagian position position.
By the way, it is quite weird that anytime anyone disagrees with you it immediately becomes some kind of personal attack. There is not one post on here where you actually discuss something when someone disagrees with you.

The only option I guess is to just sit and take in your words of wisdom without any discussion allowed. Even the pope allows questions. I'm done with you. I think you may have issues that go beyond theology.

 

[Van]

I stand by my view on Matthew 7. And you by mistake I'm sure said it right "they had faith in their beliefs". It's common for people to rely on their belief system and so don't have "saving faith" which is valid whether you like it or not.


You say this in your post and then go on and describe your semi-Pelagian position perfectly. The idea that there is no such thing as TSI is a semi-Pelagian position position.
By the way, it is quite weird that anytime anyone disagrees with you it immediately becomes some kind of personal attack. There is not one post on here where you actually discuss something when someone disagrees with you.

The only option I guess is to just sit and take in your words of wisdom without any discussion allowed. Even the pope allows questions. I'm done with you. I think you may have issues that go beyond theology.

This falsehood poster does not even know what Semi-Pelagainism is. I am so sick and tired of his false claims, one after the other, while running from any sort of actual discussion of biblical doctrine.

Calvinists almost always charge those holding differing views with one heresy or another, then claim they do not engage in "some kind of personal attack." LOL

BTW, for those who have not studied "Semi-Pelagainism" the idea is the lost person "initiates" or "takes the first step" toward their salvation. However, that false doctrine denies God reveals Himself to humanity, and all those who seek God do so only after God has revealed Himself. But the Bible says no one "comes to Me" unless drawn (attracted) by the Father. People "receive" the gospel, rather than have an innate sense of it. Semi-Pelagainism "denies that God’s unmerited favor is necessary for us to begin the process of salvation."

 

[DaveXR650]

Semi Pelagianism teaches what you have been saying; that a person has in their natural state the ability to come to faith in Christ without any further help. Semi Pelagianism is not a heresy in my view. It is the most common view of most evangelicals nowadays. Semi Pelagianism does not deny that God reveals himself or that you have to hear the gospel. Semi Pelagianism does not deny grace or unmerited favor in the sense that they are fully on board with believing that you can be saved only by the merits of Christ. Based on your posts, I do think you are a semi Pelagian. I do not think that is a heresy. Many on here do but I do not charge you with a heresy. I fully understand the way some of the Calvinists on here do things so I kind of understand your reaction. You started a thread and I thought you would show what was wrong with Arminianism. Calvinism shouldn't even enter in this discussion. You said in the above post that "no one comes to me unless drawn (attracted by the father). That would not be a semi Pelagian position.
Just like in post 21 you take both sides of a position. Let me know who wins.

 

[AustinC]

And all living are eligible to become His children.

Only those written into the covenant.

The covenant is not a free sign up to receive a coupon. The covenant is a will, written out to those who inherit what the Father has given them upon the death of Christ Jesus on the cross.
Only those to whom Jesus calls out their name will hear and believe.
This is the consistent teaching of God and the expression of any covenant. You have a fantasy that makes you feel like you are in charge, but it's just your fantasy, not God's teaching.