Election refers to God choice to save that sinner from eternity past, but before the sinner chosen receives Jesus as Lord and savior is indeed on highway to hell, and once saved, then predestined unto highway to heaven
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Flaws of Calvinism
- Thread starter Van
- Start date
the ONLY version of that that will be successful will be the Kingdom set up here upon earth when Lord jesus returns
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Are these some of the others you are referring to?
1) "but we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory:"( 1 Corinthians 2:7 ). <---- God ordained.
2) " Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel." ( 1 Corinthians 9:14 ). <--- The Lord ordained.
3) " Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, ( I speak the truth in Christ, [and] lie not; ) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity." ( 1 Timothy 2:7 ). <--- Please see Acts 20:28, which tells us:
"Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood." <---- So, in 1 Timothy 2:7, Paul was made a preacher and an apostle by the the Lord... i.e. ordained of God.
4) "And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God [to be] the Judge of quick and dead." ( Acts 10 ). <--- Ordained of God.
5) " beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection." ( Acts 1:22 ). <--- Here a lot was drawn regarding whether Matthias or Barsabas was to be numbered among the 11 to make 12 apostles. They prayed to the Lord asking Him to show them, and the lot fell upon Matthias. Thus, the Lord showed them who He had ordained to replace Judas.
6) " And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed." ( Acts 14:23 ) <---- Again, please see Acts 20:28, where it is the Holy Spirit who does the ordaining... making each and every one who is ordained as an overseer ( pastor, etc ), ordained of God.
7) "And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31 because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by [that] man whom he hath ordained; [whereof] he hath given assurance unto all [men], in that he hath raised him from the dead." ( Acts 17:30-31 ). <---- God ordained.
8) "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." (Ephesians 2:10 ) <---- God ordained.
Also,
Please see Hebrews 5:1, Hebrews 8:3, John 15:16, Jude 1:4, Mark 3:14, Romans 13:1 and Galatians 3:19.
Perhaps I'm reading them wrong, Van.
Would you please explain how one gets a mutually agreed upon arrangement out of statements that tell us that it was God who ordained something?
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Silverhair
Well-Known Member
But if as you say they were chosen in eternity past then was there ever the possibility that they would not be in heaven? Not according to the flawed calvinist view there was not. So in reality they were never on the road to hell. Rejecting God was not a option for them was it.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Had to look this up as had not come across "theonomy" before.
Theonomy presumes biblical Israel's Old Covenant judicial laws have not been abrogated, and therefore all civil governments must enforce them.
At Christ's return I do not see in scripture where we will be under the OT laws. We are under the new covenant.
They would get to heaven, but were born in the state of being in Adam, and were hell bound
Are we supposed to believe you do not know the word I was referring to is the Greek word translated as "ordained" in Acts 13:48, and not the English word "ordained?" As I said, there is nothing more I can say.
Let us consider various translations of Acts 13:48
KJV = ordained
NKJV = appointed
LEB = designated
TLB = wanted
NOG = prepared
TLV = inscribed
WE = before chosen
Clearly those who believe individuals were chosen for salvation individually before creation read into this verse a prior election by God. So setting that agenda driven mistranslation aside, we are left with appointed, designated and wanted.
Now lets look at the actual Greek word, "tasso" (G5021)
Here is how the KJV translates the word:
Matthew 28:16 = appointed
Luke 7:8 = set
Acts 13:48 = ordained
Acts 15:2 = determined
Acts 22:10 = appointed
Acts 28:23 = appointed
Romans 13:1 = ordained
1 Corinthians 16:15 = addicted
However, if we consider all 8 usages of the word, they always refers to an arrangement mutually agreed upon. For example, if the gospel says the way to eternal life is to believe in Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord, then, those that agree and accept that revelation presented by Paul, made the appointment. Just like when we accept the time and place our Doctor specifies, we make an appointment with our doctor.
By the numbers:
In Mathew 28:16 the disciples agreed to meet Jesus at the specified place.
In Luke 7:8 the officer agrees to use the authority specified.
In Acts 13:48 as many as had accepted the specified way to eternal life believed.
In Acts 15:2 Paul and others accepted the arrangement to go to Jerusalem.
In Acts 22:10 Paul accepts the things that were specified for him to do.
In Acts 28:23 people accepted the arranged day to hear Paul preach
In Romans 13:1 we are to accept the governing authority's direction established by God.
1 Corinthians 16:15 the household had accepted the ministry to the Saints.
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Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Calvinism the truths of tulip are nothing short than the gospel of God's grace!
Calvinism's falsehoods of the TULIP are nothing short of a demonic corruption of the Gospel of Christ.
Claims without evidence, like the two above, only serve to divide rather than edify.
For example, post #67 provides evidence that Acts 13:48 when properly understood through study does not support individual election before creation.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Respectfully, I know very well what "tasso" means, Van.
"τάσσω" ( transliterated as "tasso" ) means exactly what the lexicons tell us that it means, and the translators of the AV ( and many other modern English translations ) have rendered it faithfully and accurately.
Are we supposed to believe that every passage in the New Testament that uses the word, "ordained" ( translated from the Greek word " τάσσω" ) is speaking of a mutually agreed upon arrangement, when most of the passages that use it speak of the Lord ordaining something... with no mention of us being involved?
I don't, because again, I know what "tasso" means...
And it never means "a mutually agreed upon arrangement".
I'm sorry, Van, but I disagree.
I'm also assuming that you're reading and understanding the passages that I've posted above.
"Ordained of God" means that God did the assigning / commissioning / appointing.
He did not consult us.
He does not ever have to consult us with anything that He decides to do:
" But our God [is] in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased." ( Psalms 115:3 )
" Whatsoever the Lord pleased, [that] did he in heaven, and in earth, in the seas, and all deep places." ( Psalms 135:6 )
"The Lord of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, [so] shall it stand:"(Isaiah 14:24 ).
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Silverhair
Well-Known Member
That is an illogical statement. If they were pre-chosen to go to heaven as the calvinists posits then they were at no time bound for hell. It was not even a matter of if they believed in Christ as by the calvinist version they were all pre-saved.
Folks, yet another "taint so" post, again pretending all the Greek words translated as "ordained" by the KJV are mean "a mutually agreed upon arrangement." Talk about nonsense.
Did I address the off topic references to verses not translating tasso? Nope, but once again, this poster wants to address his deflection.
Back to the topic:
In Mathew 28:16 the disciples agreed to meet Jesus at the specified place.
In Luke 7:8 the officer agrees to use the authority specified.
In Acts 13:48 as many as had accepted the specified way to eternal life believed.
In Acts 15:2 Paul and others accepted the arrangement to go to Jerusalem.
In Acts 22:10 Paul accepts the things that were specified for him to do.
In Acts 28:23 people accepted the arranged day to hear Paul preach
In Romans 13:1 we are to accept the governing authority's direction established by God.
1 Corinthians 16:15 the household had accepted the ministry to the Saints.
This poster claims all these translation choices are incorrect. Denial of the obvious is all they have. Tasso is always used in scripture to mean "a mutually agreed upon arrangement!"
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
@Van
16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
They may have agreed however Jesus did the appointing, they didn't appoint them selves.
Also the words went away in the original are poreuō:
Now in this verse its an aorist passive indicative, so by it being passive, they were acted upon to go to the place appointed by Jesus.
So this dislodges your careless handling of the scripture sir.
So they were led or sent to the appointed place into galilee
16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
They may have agreed however Jesus did the appointing, they didn't appoint them selves.
Also the words went away in the original are poreuō:
- to lead over, carry over, transfer
- to pursue the journey on which one has entered, to continue on one's journey
- to depart from life
- to follow one, that is: become his adherent
- to lead or order one's life
Now in this verse its an aorist passive indicative, so by it being passive, they were acted upon to go to the place appointed by Jesus.
So this dislodges your careless handling of the scripture sir.
So they were led or sent to the appointed place into galilee
Why are you posting this nonsense, the word translated in your reference as appointed refers to a mutually agreed upon arrangement.
Folks, here again is absurdity, changing the subject to another word having nothing to do with the issue.
Matthew 28:16 Interpretive translation
But the eleven disciples proceeded to Galilee, to the mountain where they had agreed to meet at the place designated by Jesus.
Note the effort to rewrite "tasso" as if it were "tithēmi" (G5087), but that is not the word God inspired.
Calvinism must be read into the text where scripture precludes it.
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Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
More nonsense, it does not matter whether in the middle voice or the passive voice, they took the direction, received passively and acted upon it, middle. How many times have I explained this? Scores?
Folks, Acts 13:48 actually provides no support for the false doctrines of Calvinism. The bogus support comes from misrepresenting the verse.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
In bible hub greek and blue letter bible greek text its passive voice, not middle. And scripture for all interlinear has passive voice
eporeuqhsan eporeuthEsan G4198 vi Aor pasD 3 Pl WERE-GONE went
Now if you have a source that has it in the middle voice please provide it. Thanks
Folks, ask yourselves this question, has any posting Calvinist EVER admitted that even one of the points of the TULIP is bogus. And remember that 5 point Calvinists claim 4 point Calvinists are not actually Calvinists!
Why did Christ die for all of humanity if God had already chosen who would be saved individually? That is why they claim Christ did not become the means of reconciliation for the whole of humanity, 1 John 2:2, and did not die as a ransom for all, 1 timothy 2:6, and certainly did not taste death for all, Hebrews 2:9. No Siree Bab, those verses do not mean what they say, according to Calvinism.
Why did Christ die for all of humanity if God had already chosen who would be saved individually? That is why they claim Christ did not become the means of reconciliation for the whole of humanity, 1 John 2:2, and did not die as a ransom for all, 1 timothy 2:6, and certainly did not taste death for all, Hebrews 2:9. No Siree Bab, those verses do not mean what they say, according to Calvinism.
Nonsense response, it does not matter what voice the word is in. Can you address what I say, or are you going to continue to post drivel non-stop?