Flaws of Calvinism

[Van]

1. Calvinism is Fatalistic.​

Calvinism promotes fatalism and resignation. In reality, Calvinists believe everything has been predestined, you were either saved or damned from eternity for eternity, and there is nothing you can do to alter that outcome for yourself or your loved ones.

2. Calvinists do not think Evangelism helps save souls, as those to be saved were predestined before creation.
However, many Calvinists are deeply committed to sharing their faith, understanding it as a command from God.

3. Calvinism is Out of Touch With Modern Biblical Study
Calvinist theology is outdated, a relic of the "dark ages." It blames God for those who reject the gospel, since their choice was supposedly predestined, rather than looking to improve the efficacy of their evangelism. Calvinism is not based on what the Bible actually says, but on what can be read into vague or poorly translated passages of scripture.


But the true Doctrines of Grace, taken directly from what scripture actually says, are these:

General Offer of Reconciliation - Christ died for all people, those to be saved and those never to be saved, 1 Timothy 2:6 and 2 Peter 2:1
Resistible Grace - Many of the Lost are able to understand God's revelation, but are also able to reject it in whole or in part, as well as fully accept it. When and only if God credits the person's faith as righteousness, does God put the person into Christ.
Ability to Believe - the Lost can understand Spiritual Milk, the Fundamentals of the Gospel, and thus can seek God and trust in Christ based on His revelation without supernatural "Enablement."
Conditional Election - God chooses individuals for salvation based on crediting their faith as righteousness, and then transferring the individual spiritually into Christ. This transfer is also referred to as being given to Christ, being called into His kingdom, being sanctified, being baptized into Christ, and believing into Christ, even His name.
Eternal Security - Once a person has been transferred into Christ, they undergo spiritual rebirth, with their faith protected by the power of God, and then sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit forever, thus salvation cannot be lost.

 

[Zaatar71]

1. Calvinism is Fatalistic.​

Calvinism promotes fatalism and resignation. In reality, Calvinists believe everything has been predestined, you were either saved or damned from eternity for eternity, and there is nothing you can do to alter that outcome for yourself or your loved ones.

2. Calvinists do not think Evangelism helps save souls, as those to be saved were predestined before creation.
However, many Calvinists are deeply committed to sharing their faith, understanding it as a command from God.

3. Calvinism is Out of Touch With Modern Biblical Study
Calvinist theology is outdated, a relic of the "dark ages." It blames God for those who reject the gospel, since their choice was supposedly predestined, rather than looking to improve the efficacy of their evangelism. Calvinism is not based on what the Bible actually says, but on what can be read into vague or poorly translated passages of scripture.


But the true Doctrines of Grace, taken directly from what scripture actually says, are these:

General Offer of Reconciliation - Christ died for all people, those to be saved and those never to be saved, 1 Timothy 2:6 and 2 Peter 2:1
Resistible Grace - Many of the Lost are able to understand God's revelation, but are also able to reject it in whole or in part, as well as fully accept it. When and only if God credits the person's faith as righteousness, does God put the person into Christ.
Ability to Believe - the Lost can understand Spiritual Milk, the Fundamentals of the Gospel, and thus can seek God and trust in Christ based on His revelation without supernatural "Enablement."
Conditional Election - God chooses individuals for salvation based on crediting their faith as righteousness, and then transferring the individual spiritually into Christ. This transfer is also referred to as being given to Christ, being called into His kingdom, being sanctified, being baptized into Christ, and believing into Christ, even His name.
Eternal Security - Once a person has been transferred into Christ, they undergo spiritual rebirth, with their faith protected by the power of God, and then sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit forever, thus salvation cannot be lost.

False caricatures once again! Will this never end. No substance Vanology on display! Invented ideas not found in scripture anywhere!

1} using the term fatalism, without understanding what it means!

2} Calvinists are all about evangelism

2} Confessional Calvinists are all about bible study!

 

[Charlie24]

That wouldn't make sense. Before a sinner comes to Christ, they are not Christians, whether reformed Christians, or any other sort.

If unconditional election is true, then we are all saved through Reformed Theology and just don't know it yet.

My original statement was said in sarcasm.

 

[Brightfame52]

Good Grief, the whole of humanity are not elect!

okay be specific,, so when you say fallen humanity who do you mean ? As far as Im concern that describes the elect since they fell in Adam

Next, God is reconciling humanity to Himself, one sinner at a time. S

The point is, how were they reconciled to God according to Rom 5:10

. Scripture does not say God has reconciled all those to be saved.

What does the scripture say in Rom 5:10 concerning them reconciled by His death while enemies ? What's the promise that shall happen to them ?

 

[cjab]

So who does the whole world refer to according to 1 Jn 2:2

Every man in the whole world.

 

[cjab]

You are not addressing the issue at all. You offer the same lame excuses, ie, Manichaeism,, lol No one quoted any gnostic teaching.
You have not demonstrated any link. You assert many things in an effort to avoid the links offered. That's fine as far as it goes. You are welcome to avoid truth! That is your self will choice!

It is a gnostic teaching to presuppose that the creation itself is flawed. I deduce that this is your view as you maintain ALL infants are given to "loving darkness." That's not to say that some are given to sin. Sure, the bible records the cases of rebellious children, and laws against them. Some doubtless reject God's revelations to an extremity. But it cannot mean "all", as Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God, and many children are exposed to God's word from birth.

So it is futile to pretend that children are apostate from birth (which is what "loving darkness" connotes), if they are trained in godliness from birth. It is futile to say that without God, man will hate God, for man was never made to live without God in the first place. It is not a flaw in man's constitution to say that man cannot live with God.

Of John the Baptist it is written that he possessed the Holy Spirit even before his birth (Luke 1:15). And as Jesus said of the infants presented to him (who had been fully exposed to the law of Moses) .... "for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”

This is the crux, I believe. And you won't address it, but are determined to evade it. You seem to be incapable of defending your thesis that I genuinely find to be Manichaean (and sorry if you object to that but it is common allegation made against the later teachings of Augustine which Calvin followed).

 

[cjab]

It is a gnostic teaching to presuppose that the creation itself is flawed. I deduce that this is your view as you maintain ALL infants are given to "loving darkness." That's not to say that some are given to sin. Sure, the bible records the cases of rebellious children, and laws against them. Some doubtless reject God's revelations to an extremity. But it cannot mean "all", as Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God, and many children are exposed to God's word from birth.

So it is futile to pretend that children are apostate from birth (which is what "loving darkness" connotes), if they are trained in godliness from birth. It is futile to say that without God, man will hate God, for man was never made to live without God in the first place. It is not a flaw in man's constitution to say that man cannot live with God.

Of John the Baptist it is written that he possessed the Holy Spirit even before his birth (Luke 1:15). And as Jesus said of the infants presented to him (who had been fully exposed to the law of Moses) .... "for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”

This is the crux, I believe. And you won't address it, but are determined to evade it. You seem to be incapable of defending your thesis that I genuinely find to be Manichaean (and sorry if you object to that but it is common allegation made against the later teachings of Augustine which Calvin followed).

I rather intended "It is not a flaw in man's constitution to say that man cannot live WITHOUT God."

Children having godly parents will have a better probability of being godly children, for "Otherwise, your children would not be holy, but now they are holy." 1 Cor 7:14.

 

[Brightfame52]

Every man in the whole world.

Thats not what it says.

 

[Van]

False caricatures once again! Will this never end. No substance Vanology on display! Invented ideas not found in scripture anywhere!

1} using the term fatalism, without understanding what it means!

2} Calvinists are all about evangelism

2} Confessional Calvinists are all about bible study!

Four false claims, for the purpose of denial. Every point of the "reformed" doctrines of GRACE are taught explicitly in scripture.
Christ died for the whole of humanity, 1 John 2:2, 1 Timothy 2:6 and 2 Peter 2:1.
Many of the lost are able to understand God revelation, Luke 13:24, Matthew 13 soils 2, 3 and 4.
God chooses individuals for salvation through faith in the truth, 2 Thessalonians 2:13
Once saved, always saved, John 3:16

 

[Van]

okay be specific,, so when you say fallen humanity who do you mean ? As far as Im concern that describes the elect since they fell in Adam


The point is, how were they reconciled to God according to Rom 5:10

What does the scripture say in Rom 5:10 concerning them reconciled by His death while enemies ? What's the promise that shall happen to them ?

Note not one word concerning the fact the elect were once not a people and had not received mercy. Thus no individual could be elected before creation. Not one word, but more denial and deflection.

 

[Van]

The truth does not need to be defended/ Truth is like a Lion who can defend itself.

1 Peter 3:15
We are to be ready to defend the Truth

2 Timothy 2:15
We are to accurately present the word of Truth.

John 14:6
Jesus *said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father except through Me.

 

[Reynolds]

Election refers to God choice to save that sinner from eternity past, but before the sinner chosen receives Jesus as Lord and savior is indeed on highway to hell, and once saved, then predestined unto highway to heaven

If my name was written in book before time, There was never a possibility I would arrive in Hell.

 

[Reynolds]

1. Calvinism is Fatalistic.​

Calvinism promotes fatalism and resignation. In reality, Calvinists believe everything has been predestined, you were either saved or damned from eternity for eternity, and there is nothing you can do to alter that outcome for yourself or your loved ones.

2. Calvinists do not think Evangelism helps save souls, as those to be saved were predestined before creation.
However, many Calvinists are deeply committed to sharing their faith, understanding it as a command from God.

3. Calvinism is Out of Touch With Modern Biblical Study
Calvinist theology is outdated, a relic of the "dark ages." It blames God for those who reject the gospel, since their choice was supposedly predestined, rather than looking to improve the efficacy of their evangelism. Calvinism is not based on what the Bible actually says, but on what can be read into vague or poorly translated passages of scripture.


But the true Doctrines of Grace, taken directly from what scripture actually says, are these:

General Offer of Reconciliation - Christ died for all people, those to be saved and those never to be saved, 1 Timothy 2:6 and 2 Peter 2:1
Resistible Grace - Many of the Lost are able to understand God's revelation, but are also able to reject it in whole or in part, as well as fully accept it. When and only if God credits the person's faith as righteousness, does God put the person into Christ.
Ability to Believe - the Lost can understand Spiritual Milk, the Fundamentals of the Gospel, and thus can seek God and trust in Christ based on His revelation without supernatural "Enablement."
Conditional Election - God chooses individuals for salvation based on crediting their faith as righteousness, and then transferring the individual spiritually into Christ. This transfer is also referred to as being given to Christ, being called into His kingdom, being sanctified, being baptized into Christ, and believing into Christ, even His name.
Eternal Security - Once a person has been transferred into Christ, they undergo spiritual rebirth, with their faith protected by the power of God, and then sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit forever, thus salvation cannot be lost.

2 is an absolute lie.
3 is simply inaccurate.

 

[Van]

2 is an absolute lie.
3 is simply inaccurate.

Yet another mindless taint so post, devoid of any context.

If you believe the future is predetermined, you can choose to life less carefully than if you believe wise living may positively impact others.

And if you deny Calvinism is a relic of the Dark ages, there is nothing more that can be presented.

 

[Zaatar71]

It is a gnostic teaching to presuppose that the creation itself is flawed. I deduce that this is your view as you maintain ALL infants are given to "loving darkness."

That's not to say that some are given to sin. Sure, the bible records the cases of rebellious children, and laws against them. Some doubtless reject God's revelations to an extremity. But it cannot mean "all", as Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God, and many children are exposed to God's word from birth.

So it is futile to pretend that children are apostate from birth (which is what "loving darkness" connotes), if they are trained in godliness from birth. It is futile to say that without God, man will hate God, for man was never made to live without God in the first place. It is not a flaw in man's constitution to say that man cannot live with God.

Of John the Baptist it is written that he possessed the Holy Spirit even before his birth (Luke 1:15). And as Jesus said of the infants presented to him (who had been fully exposed to the law of Moses) .... "for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”

This is the crux, I believe. And you won't address it, but are determined to evade it. You seem to be incapable of defending your thesis that I genuinely find to be Manichaean (and sorry if you object to that but it is common allegation made against the later teachings of Augustine which Calvin followed).

You say: {It is a gnostic teaching to presuppose that the creation itself is flawed. I deduce that this is your view as you maintain ALL infants are given to "loving darkness."]
Are you a new professed Christian Cjab? I ask this because you have missed the biblical teaching on this!
God looked at His original creation and proclaimed it was very good!
Gen.1:31 31 And God saw everything that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

However the fall of Adam took place and we read where Solomon explained a bit on this in Eccl.7:
29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.
This is biblical teaching and not gnostic ideas at all. The idea of trying to suggest that we are the product of forms of Gnostism, is a weak attempt to smear those of us, who understand the teaching of the doctrines of grace.
Likewise we learn of the condition of Children straight from scripture;
Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Psa58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

This does indeed mean ALL who were ever conceived. We were ALL born spiritually dead.
Romans 3:23 teaches that ALL sinned in Adam at the fall.
Men because of the sin nature are born alienated from the life of God Eph2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

{Of John the Baptist it is written that he possessed the Holy Spirit even before his birth (Luke 1:15). And as Jesus said of the infants presented to him (who had been fully exposed to the law of Moses) .... "for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”

This is the crux, I believe. And you won't address it, but are determined to evade it. You seem to be incapable of defending your thesis that I genuinely find to be Manichaean (and sorry if you object to that but it is common allegation made against the later teachings of Augustine which Calvin followed).}

Not everyone is a John The Baptist... your children were conceived as sinners, not a blank slate. The Kingdom of God belongs to those little ones...who believe! Mt. 18:6 defines those who BELIEVE, not just all children.
Your Manichean excuse does not fly among biblical Calvinists, who shred these false ideas quite quickly .
I would recommend you put down your gnostic literature, and the writings of those who hate the doctrines of grace, and start by reading the verses offered her, and those offered in the 1689 Confession of faith.

https://www.grbc.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/The-1689-Baptist-Confession-of-Faith.pdf

 

[Zaatar71]

2 is an absolute lie.
3 is simply inaccurate.

Yes, both an absolute lie, and a dishonest caricature of truth!

 

[cjab]

Thats not what it says.

No comment.

You say: {It is a gnostic teaching to presuppose that the creation itself is flawed. I deduce that this is your view as you maintain ALL infants are given to "loving darkness."]
Are you a new professed Christian Cjab?

No. But I am a simple Christian, in the sense I try not to let philosophy intrude into religion.

I ask this because you have missed the biblical teaching on this!
God looked at His original creation and proclaimed it was very good!
Gen.1:31 31 And God saw everything that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

However the fall of Adam took place and we read where Solomon explained a bit on this in Eccl.7:
29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.
This is biblical teaching and not gnostic ideas at all. The idea of trying to suggest that we are the product of forms of Gnostism, is a weak attempt to smear those of us, who understand the teaching of the doctrines of grace.

Now you're addressing the fully grown man who has not honored and glorified God as he should. On this we probably agree, although perhaps not fully, as Jesus allows for differing degrees of righteousness in different classes of people, which your pessimistic view doesn't allow for.

But my comments were a reflection on this specific comment of yours:

"Loving darkness" in the sense of a preference for working iniquity is the one sin that will cause God to prohibit access to the kingdom of God.

All men are born in that condition!

Likewise we learn of the condition of Children straight from scripture;
Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Psa58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

This does indeed mean ALL who were ever conceived. We were ALL born spiritually dead.

It doesn't mean that at all. I have studied the commentaries and they do not interpret these passages as you do. Man is born with a mind, as well as flesh. A man is more than a lump of flesh, as you insinuate wrongly.

In Rom 7:18 Paul articules the Christian interpretation: "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells." However, he counters this with "with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin."

So Paul as other Old Testament characters concede that the mind controlled by faith and the Spirit is able to conquer the flesh. And this is what transpires with some or many, even from birth, provided they are birthed by godly parents.

Romans 3:23 teaches that ALL sinned in Adam at the fall

All having sinned doesn't infer that all are spiritually dead (at emnity with God - although undoubtedly many are).

Men because of the sin nature are born alienated from the life of God Eph2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Paul is stating the general case re a Gentile world given over to idolatry, but he wouldn't have said it of the Israelite prophets.

Not everyone is a John The Baptist... your children were conceived as sinners, not a blank slate. The Kingdom of God belongs to those little ones...who believe! Mt. 18:6 defines those who BELIEVE, not just all children.

Yes, and wasn't man made to believe? Belief is the correct state for man to be in, as Hab 2:4 concedes.

Your Manichean excuse does not fly among biblical Calvinists, who shred these false ideas quite quickly .

In insisting that all men are born "spiritually dead" you and your fellow Calvinists have espoused Manichaeanism. The bible says nothing of the kind. Born into sin, yes. Born "spiritually dead", no. A man doesn't become spiritually dead until he has sinned grievously, but even then he may repent, as the prodigal son also did.

I would recommend you put down your gnostic literature, and the writings of those who hate the doctrines of grace, and start by reading the verses offered her, and those offered in the 1689 Confession of faith.

https://www.grbc.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/The-1689-Baptist-Confession-of-Faith.pdf

Sorry, but you don't prove anything by citing one or two verses affirming that nothing good lives in the flesh, for man is not just "flesh" - that state properly belongs to the "natural man" - it is the most wicked state of men, the apostate. Again, I point out that the modern Calvinist seems to be incapable of distinguishing between the different categories of men that appear all the time in the bible (in both the OT and the NT).

Certain peoples especially the new testament Gentiles, and the followers of the Jewish elites, were in a depraved condition in those days. This accounts for Paul's wide usage of pessimistic generalities, but I don't believe he would have used the same words of the godly, e.g. the Israelite prophets. There is simply no record of them being born "spiritually dead."

 

[Brightfame52]

Note not one word concerning the fact the elect were once not a people and had not received mercy. Thus no individual could be elected before creation. Not one word, but more denial and deflection.

Evaded my question

 

[Brightfame52]

No comment

Good move

 

[Zaatar71]

No comment.


No. But I am a simple Christian, in the sense I try not to let philosophy intrude into religion.


Now you're addressing the fully grown man who has not honored and glorified God as he should. On this we probably agree, although perhaps not fully, as Jesus allows for differing degrees of righteousness in different classes of people, which your pessimistic view doesn't allow for.

But my comments were a reflection on this specific comment of yours:






It doesn't mean that at all. I have studied the commentaries and they do not interpret these passages as you do. Man is born with a mind, as well as flesh. A man is more than a lump of flesh, as you insinuate wrongly.

In Rom 7:18 Paul articules the Christian interpretation: "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells." However, he counters this with "with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin."

So Paul as other Old Testament characters concede that the mind controlled by faith and the Spirit is able to conquer the flesh. And this is what transpires with some or many, even from birth, provided they are birthed by godly parents.



All having sinned doesn't infer that all are spiritually dead (at emnity with God - although undoubtedly many are).


Paul is stating the general case re a Gentile world given over to idolatry, but he wouldn't have said it of the Israelite prophets.


Yes, and wasn't man made to believe? Belief is the correct state for man to be in, as Hab 2:4 concedes.


In insisting that all men are born "spiritually dead" you and your fellow Calvinists have espoused Manichaeanism. The bible says nothing of the kind. Born into sin, yes. Born "spiritually dead", no. A man doesn't become spiritually dead until he has sinned grievously, but even then he may repent, as the prodigal son also did.


Sorry, but you don't prove anything by citing one or two verses affirming that nothing good lives in the flesh, for man is not just "flesh" - that state properly belongs to the "natural man" - it is the most wicked state of men, the apostate. Again, I point out that the modern Calvinist seems to be incapable of distinguishing between the different categories of men that appear all the time in the bible (in both the OT and the NT).

Certain peoples especially the new testament Gentiles, and the followers of the Jewish elites, were in a depraved condition in those days. This accounts for Paul's wide usage of pessimistic generalities, but I don't believe he would have used the same words of the godly, e.g. the Israelite prophets. There is simply no record of them being born "spiritually dead."

Thanks for your responses, Cjab. I understand where you are coming from now. I would encourage you to reread scripture until you can believe all of it. Selecting some verses and explaining away others until you do not believe them anymore is not healthy.