For all dispensational brethren to consider

[HankD]

This is so wrong...I do not know where to begin.

You have everyone being saved...no matter what.They might lose a few privleges but they all go to heaven anyway???
None of these will be the bride of Christ????

This is the danger and evil of dispensationalism.....that God had preserved a Godly remnant shows that not all were saved!

As stated this is a gospel of another kind...not that which is in scripture.
Sorry...I might back out of this one...I do not want these false thoughts in my mind.

This system seperates what God has brought together. At this point you are looking at the verses, and missing what is said.
no matter what is offered you will turn it to this other gospel....

10Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.

11So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

12Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

True Iconoclast.

I have always supported this thesis, not all Israel is Israel.

Those Jews having been saved before Jesus said "I will build my church" are redeemed Israel.

All who are saved are saved by grace through faith no matter what age (aeon), covenant, dispensation, whatever, Jew or Gentile...

I do however make a distinction between redeemed Israel and the church.

HankD

 

[stilllearning]

Hello Iconoclast

If you want to back out, that’s okey I guess.

But a clear “part” of the Gospel is...........
Ephesians 2:8-9
V.8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
V.9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Good works have nothing to do with “getting saved”:
But you seem to be leaning toward a “works based Gospel”:
Which is truly dangerous.
--------------------------------------------------
Just one question: You talked about.......

“a Godly remnant”

Are you talking about “sinless perfection”, or something else?

What Scripture do you use to support this statement:
In light of........
1 John 1:8
“If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.”

 

[Iconoclast]

Hello Iconoclast

If you want to back out, that’s okey I guess.

But a clear “part” of the Gospel is...........
Ephesians 2:8-9
V.8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
V.9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Good works have nothing to do with “getting saved”:
But you seem to be leaning toward a “works based Gospel”:
Which is truly dangerous.
--------------------------------------------------
Just one question: You talked about.......


Are you talking about “sinless perfection”, or something else?

What Scripture do you use to support this statement:
In light of........
1 John 1:8
“If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.”

Stilllearning,

Okay...I will try some more here..some now some later on..have to drive again...but get a concordance and look up the phrase elect. or elect remnant.
Most times it is found in the OT speaking of the believers that God preserved among the OT jews..
like Isa 1:9

doth not know, my people doth not consider.

4Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the LORD, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward.

5Why should ye be stricken any more? ye will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint.

6From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment.

7Your country is desolate, your cities are burned with fire: your land, strangers devour it in your presence, and it is desolate, as overthrown by strangers.

8And the daughter of Zion is left as a cottage in a vineyard, as a lodge in a garden of cucumbers, as a besieged city.

9Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.

Paul identifies them as an elect remnant in Romans ..he quotes this....

29And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.

or again in isa 10;

17And the light of Israel shall be for a fire, and his Holy One for a flame: and it shall burn and devour his thorns and his briers in one day; 18And shall consume the glory of his forest, and of his fruitful field, both soul and body: and they shall be as when a standard-bearer fainteth.

19And the rest of the trees of his forest shall be few, that a child may write them.

20And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.

21The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God.

22For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness.

23For the Lord GOD of hosts shall make a consumption, even determined, in the midst of all the land.

Thorns and briers= apostates covenant breakers..see ezk2:6
the remnant....means the majority went to hell! only the remnant are saved...not all jews..a believing remnant..

Ezekiel 2:6

King James Version (KJV)




6And thou, son of man, be not afraid of them, neither be afraid of their words, though briers and thorns be with thee, and thou dost dwell among scorpions: be not afraid of their words, nor be dismayed at their looks, though they be a rebellious house.

More...later...must go across wyoming now..lol..very scenic..DR.Bob..lol
27Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:


ps...

Good works have nothing to do with “getting saved”:
But you seem to be leaning toward a “works based Gospel”:
Which is truly dangerous.

relax....works cannot save at all ,never ....Only the work of Jesus saves....will explore this whole issue later no sinless perfection....[but we have a duty to gospel obedience,and mortifcation of all known sin]...STILLLearning..to unravel this maze will take some time....look up ..remnant, thorns and briers..in the concordance..it is a good study..very profitable!

 

[Iconoclast]

True Iconoclast.

I have always supported this thesis, not all Israel is Israel.

Those Jews having been saved before Jesus said "I will build my church" are redeemed Israel.

All who are saved are saved by grace through faith no matter what age (aeon), covenant, dispensation, whatever, Jew or Gentile...

I do however make a distinction between redeemed Israel and the church.

HankD

Yes Hank,
Many sit under dispensational error today.It is such a maze of wrongly dividing the truth...that it totally confuses many new converts.
They do supply answers and come across as answering all the questions.
It takes awhile to learn enough to even begin to question the system.
It is almost shocking when you see how it unravels....so many cling to it,afraid that if they let go...they are turning from the word.

 

[Iconoclast]

Stilllearning,

Good works have nothing to do with “getting saved”:
But you seem to be leaning toward a “works based Gospel”:
Which is truly dangerous.
--------------------------------------------------
Just one question: You talked about.......


Are you talking about “sinless perfection”, or something else?

Sinless perfection is an error that came to life among some methodist ,holiness groups.....make no mistake it is clearly error.

That being said.....we are saved as you say from Eph2:8-9...by grace...but lets see how it looks when we add verse 10:

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

there are good works that are ordained for us...who are saved by grace:thumbs:

12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

13For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

14Do all things without murmurings and disputings:

15That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

Once we are saved, get strengthened in the word.....we seek God's face and word to see what He would have us tgo do....

good works are commanded.

14What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

there is a DEAD FAITH...that is a non saving faith! Do not be mislead by anyone who says there is no difference in types of faith.

 

[HankD]

Yes Hank,
Many sit under dispensational error today.It is such a maze of wrongly dividing the truth...that it totally confuses many new converts.
They do supply answers and come across as answering all the questions.
It takes awhile to learn enough to even begin to question the system.
It is almost shocking when you see how it unravels....so many cling to it,afraid that if they let go...they are turning from the word.

Don't get me wrong Iconoclast, I do accept many of the tenents of so-called "dispensationalism".

The Law of Israel, the Age of Grace, the distinction of redeemed Israel and the church, the gathering of the Elect, the Tribulation, the visible and bodily return of Jesus Christ, the Millennium, the Eternal State. All those elements held by some since the beginning.

Just not the excesses of multiple gospels and other errors of hyper-dispensationalism (i.e. Bullingerism).

One gospel by grace through faith ruling over each age.

HankD

 

[Iconoclast]

Don't get me wrong Iconoclast, I do accept many of the tenents of so-called "dispensationalism".

The Law of Israel, the Age of Grace, the distinction of redeemed Israel and the church, the gathering of the Elect, the Tribulation, the visible and bodily return of Jesus Christ, the Millennium, the Eternal State. All those elements held by some since the beginning.

Just not the excesses of multiple gospels and other errors of hyper-dispensationalism (i.e. Bullingerism).

One gospel by grace through faith ruling over each age.

HankD

Hello Hank,
It is good to hold what you do,unless and until further study leads to more clarity.....

I found that ...law is in every age,conscience is in every age, grace is in every age.

the distinction of redeemed Israel and the church,

13These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

14For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.

15And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.

16But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

39And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

What is your take on these verses in Heb11...that speaks of OT saints and us together??? read the whole chapter and see how he causually mentions all the redeemed as ONE.

 

[ituttut]

DTo Iconoclast, I do accept many of the tenents of so-called "dispensationalism".

An interesting point you make. Does that mean you believe some of what Paul taught to the Gentiles?

The Law of Israel, the Age of Grace, the distinction of redeemed Israel and the church, the gathering of the Elect, the Tribulation, the visible and bodily return of Jesus Christ, the Millennium, the Eternal State. All those elements held by some since the beginning.

Just not the excesses of multiple gospels and other errors of hyper-dispensationalism (i.e. Bullingerism).

One gospel by grace through faith ruling over each age.

HankD

Do you believe all dispensationalists that separate themselves from Israel religious rites, laws, and ordinances to be hyper-dispensationalist, or just some?

Grace has always been, and you are saying God has always dispensed His Grace the same from the beginning. I really believe you have missed something. In His eyes, God only found Grace in one man, and surely there were many, many thousands, and most likely millions at that time. If justification has always been the same, then had some of us not get busy building a boat? I personally cannot start at this time for He has not told me to do so.

God in His Grace didn't do the WORK, but Noah had to do it. And what many dispensationalists believe is that Noah knew nothing about his salvation having to do by coming through the blood of God, our Lord Jesus Christ. The secret of all ages (dispensations) is to believe God, and what He tells you as you live, and not what He tells someone else.

 

[ituttut]

posted to Hank,
It is good to hold what you do,unless and until further study leads to more clarity.....

I found that ...law is in every age,conscience is in every age, grace is in every age.

I agree with you both, but there other considerations, as you may know.

 

[Greektim]

Hebrews 3:6 was the beginning of the end of my dispensationalist beliefs. It makes the discontinuity thing difficult in light of there being only 1 house of Israel which the church was included. As I studied biblical theology, I realized Jesus role in the grand narrative. He picks up where Israel left off (embodiing Israel and fulfilling her covenants). So there is continuity between the OT and the 4 gospel accounts. Then the NT makes the same continuity between the 4 accounts and the rest of the NT. Therefore, the gospel accounts link the OT and NT together in such a way that some mystery program and postponed kingdom seems silly and useless.

My hermeneutic also vastly changed from the literal type to a christocentric/missional type (Lk 24:44ff.) To see the way the early church interpreted the OT and the restoration of Israel as happening in Acts 15 was pretty telling. So as I adjusted my hermeneutic, my theology adjusted with it.

 

[beameup]

Hebrews 3:6 was the beginning of the end of my dispensationalist beliefs. It makes the discontinuity thing difficult in light of there being only 1 house of Israel which the church was included. As I studied biblical theology, I realized Jesus role in the grand narrative. He picks up where Israel left off (embodiing Israel and fulfilling her covenants). So there is continuity between the OT and the 4 gospel accounts. Then the NT makes the same continuity between the 4 accounts and the rest of the NT. Therefore, the gospel accounts link the OT and NT together in such a way that some mystery program and postponed kingdom seems silly and useless.

My hermeneutic also vastly changed from the literal type to a christocentric/missional type (Lk 24:44ff.) To see the way the early church interpreted the OT and the restoration of Israel as happening in Acts 15 was pretty telling. So as I adjusted my hermeneutic, my theology adjusted with it.

Interesting, as I have recently come to the firm conviction that the entire Bible, with the exception of Paul's Epistles,
was written to and for Jews. Even Paul's Epistles show a gradual revelation of the "Mystery" of the Gentiles.
God spared nothing in revealing to the Jews that he would establish his Kingdom on Earth under Messiah.
The Book of Acts illustrates that the 12 Disciples/Apostles were expecting Jesus to return immediately.
God gave the Jews at least until 70AD to fulfill that promise. Instead the Jewish Nation rejected Jesus and
were cut-off "until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in" [Rom 11:25b], the Rapture of the Bride of Christ,
and the "revival" of the Jewish Nation, when Israel is once again back into the milieu of the first chapters of Acts.

I do find the entire Bible of value for doctrine, reproof, correction, instruction in righteousness with the Pauline Epistles as the foundation.

 

[HankD]

This is good.

If only all our discussions could be a calm and objective sharing of differences.


HankD

 

[Iconoclast]

Hebrews 3:6 was the beginning of the end of my dispensationalist beliefs. It makes the discontinuity thing difficult in light of there being only 1 house of Israel which the church was included. As I studied biblical theology, I realized Jesus role in the grand narrative. He picks up where Israel left off (embodiing Israel and fulfilling her covenants). So there is continuity between the OT and the 4 gospel accounts. Then the NT makes the same continuity between the 4 accounts and the rest of the NT. Therefore, the gospel accounts link the OT and NT together in such a way that some mystery program and postponed kingdom seems silly and useless.

My hermeneutic also vastly changed from the literal type to a christocentric/missional type (Lk 24:44ff.) To see the way the early church interpreted the OT and the restoration of Israel as happening in Acts 15 was pretty telling. So as I adjusted my hermeneutic, my theology adjusted with it.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:
Hebrews 3;1-6...a most excellent passage GT!!!

 

[Iconoclast]

This is good.

If only all our discussions could be a calm and objective sharing of differences.


HankD

This is half the battle:laugh::laugh:

 

[thomas15]

Due to a busy work schedule and a computer that is misbehaving I haven't had much time to devote to this forum in the last few weeks. Again, my conviction is that details of the end times are but a small side arguement of a larger issue, that being the debate in evangelical circles between covenant theology and dispensationalism. My contention is that those who accept the covenants of works, redemption and grace do so based on factors other than an accurate and clear rendering of the teaching of the Bible.

I checked out the link at the OP and the first thing that struck me is the proclimation that dispensationalism is the majority view. This is at best silly and it tries to convey the notion that those who take the actual words of the Bible seriously are basically out on the fringe. The preterist on the other hand, those who claim that Jesus returned in AD 70, a view with no historical backing are viewed as sensable in their theology, forgetting that Jesus himself said that everything in the OT would come to pass in exact detail Matt 5:18 "For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.."

Now here we are at 50+ posts and to my knowledge no one has mentioned a counter to the Nicene Council's 95 contentions against dispensationalism. Strange behavior for those who are addicted to hyperlinks and smilies. One exists at Sharper Iron, this link will get you started http://sharperiron.org/tags/series-95

 

[thomas15]

beameup, I basically agree with you. I would add that those Pauline epistles are addressed to believers both Jew and Gentile, in Paul's own words "to the Jew first..." Reformed theology makes a fundamental error in supposing that the times of the gentiles will not have an end. There is no acknowledegment of the fact that the issue of the Jews will be the downfall of many (Isaiah 8:14, Zechariah 12:30).

I want to state very clearly that my view is that the entire Bible is the Word of God, even those passages that we don't generally consider important such as the genealogies. Jehovah put them there for a reason and my guess is for the benefit of the Israelites who when the gentile times have run their course will look to the Scriptures and find those passages vital in determining that Jesus is the promised Savior and King of the Isrealites.

Interesting, as I have recently come to the firm conviction that the entire Bible, with the exception of Paul's Epistles,
was written to and for Jews. Even Paul's Epistles show a gradual revelation of the "Mystery" of the Gentiles.
God spared nothing in revealing to the Jews that he would establish his Kingdom on Earth under Messiah.
The Book of Acts illustrates that the 12 Disciples/Apostles were expecting Jesus to return immediately.
God gave the Jews at least until 70AD to fulfill that promise. Instead the Jewish Nation rejected Jesus and
were cut-off "until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in" [Rom 11:25b], the Rapture of the Bride of Christ,
and the "revival" of the Jewish Nation, when Israel is once again back into the milieu of the first chapters of Acts.

I do find the entire Bible of value for doctrine, reproof, correction, instruction in righteousness with the Pauline Epistles as the foundation.

 

[thomas15]

One final thought relative to having a friendly, civilized discussion. Actually it is a question. Am I the only one here who finds it odd that there are those on this opinion forum who imply on the one hand that their theological view's are better than those of the average bear and on the other hand profess not to be well schooled in the topic at hand?

 

[HankD]

An interesting point you make. Does that mean you believe some of what Paul taught to the Gentiles?

Do you believe all dispensationalists that separate themselves from Israel religious rites, laws, and ordinances to be hyper-dispensationalist, or just some?

Grace has always been, and you are saying God has always dispensed His Grace the same from the beginning. I really believe you have missed something. In His eyes, God only found Grace in one man, and surely there were many, many thousands, and most likely millions at that time. If justification has always been the same, then had some of us not get busy building a boat? I personally cannot start at this time for He has not told me to do so.

God in His Grace didn't do the WORK, but Noah had to do it. And what many dispensationalists believe is that Noah knew nothing about his salvation having to do by coming through the blood of God, our Lord Jesus Christ. The secret of all ages (dispensations) is to believe God, and what He tells you as you live, and not what He tells someone else.

The elements of the gospel have been know and taught by God from the beginning.

The works of man's hands (fig leaves) cannot be used as a covering for sin and death.

God Himself must provide the sacrifice/covering and that by the shedding of blood.

Genesis 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.​

A Deliverer/Savior would come from the "seed" (virgin birth) of Eve's progeny who would destroy the serpent and his works.​

NKJV Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, And between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, And you shall bruise His heel."​

All those who believed, longed for and looked for this Savior were saved by grace through faith in God's promise of a Messiah/deliverer/redeemer of believing mankind.​

Genesis 22:8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.​

Genesis 49
10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.
11 Binding his foal unto the vine, and his ass's colt unto the choice vine; he washed his garments in wine, and his clothes in the blood of grapes:
12 His eyes shall be red with wine, and his teeth white with milk.​

Job 19:23
25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.​

Isaiah 53
...
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.​

And many others.​

HankD​

 

[ituttut]

Interesting, as I have recently come to the firm conviction that the entire Bible, with the exception of Paul's Epistles,
was written to and for Jews. Even Paul's Epistles show a gradual revelation of the "Mystery" of the Gentiles.
God spared nothing in revealing to the Jews that he would establish his Kingdom on Earth under Messiah.
The Book of Acts illustrates that the 12 Disciples/Apostles were expecting Jesus to return immediately.
God gave the Jews at least until 70AD to fulfill that promise. Instead the Jewish Nation rejected Jesus and
were cut-off "until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in" [Rom 11:25b], the Rapture of the Bride of Christ,
and the "revival" of the Jewish Nation, when Israel is once again back into the milieu of the first chapters of Acts.

I do find the entire Bible of value for doctrine, reproof, correction, instruction in righteousness with the Pauline Epistles as the foundation.

Outstanding. Puts forth to whom we should be listening to, viz. Jesus Christ from Heaven.

 

[Greektim]

Outstanding. Puts forth to whom we should be listening to, viz. Jesus Christ from Heaven.

Except he is arguing that the one "to whom we should listen to [sic]" is Paul not Jesus.