For By Grace Are Ye Saved

[Benefactor]

Winman seems to do that a lot. Stating verses that Abraham believed God when his and Sarah's wombs were "dead" to giving birth is absolutely silly to compare with being "dead in trespasses and sins" to prove that one has the intrinsic ability to believe the Gospel. Not all forms of "dead" are created equal. Does one's computer or car battery being "dead" prevent someone from believing the Gospel?

Being "dead in sins" has to do with one's ability to believe or act contrary to one's spiritual nature.
Being "dead" in the womb has to do with one's physical ability to procreate.

These two are not mixable; however, God raising someone to spiritual life so that he believes the Gospel contrary to his nature is just as much (if not more) a miracle as God quickening a dead womb to procreate.

There is a HUGE problem here.

The soul of man is described as dead in sins and trespasses, but the soul is not dead in the sense that it is not alive. When one seeks to equate physical death to spiritual death a disconnect occurs. The only likeness in the two is "separation" but of a different kind and state. The difference between physical and spiritual is the physical ceases to exist and returns to the elements it came from. The soul that is dead in sins and trespasses does not return to non existence, it lives forever either in heaven or the lake of fire after physical death. Therefore, a dead soul is alive but separated from God because of sin.

 

[OldRegular]

The soul that is dead in sins and trespasses does not return to non existence, it lives forever either in heaven or the lake of fire after physical death. Therefore, a dead soul is alive but separated from God because of sin.

And only GOD can bridge that separation through what Jesus Christ speaks about in John 3:3-8.

3. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
5. Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

As shown in the above Scripture the New Birth is solely the work of GOD the Holy Spirit. Following the New Birth man is given the gift of faith through he will respond to the Gospel [Ephesians 2:8].

 

[webdog]

Could not the thinking that faith in the Gospel is the same "faith" as flipping a light switch and expecting light be considered a man-made doctrine? Regardless, where is the Scripture that says that everyone has "faith" (as in salvific quality) but just needs to "place" it in the right "object"? What about 2 Thes 3:2 and Rom 12:3?

I think the problem is you think there are different qualities of faith, and the high quality leads to salvation. Scripture states it only takes the faith of a child.

 

[OldRegular]

I think the problem is you think there are different qualities of faith, and the high quality leads to salvation. Scripture states it only takes the faith of a child.

It has nothing to do with the quality of faith. What some people call faith is not. I have posted the following earlier but apparently some still don't comprehend.

Martyn Lloyd-Jones, The Holy Spirit, page 140 makes the following argument [Paraphrased for brevity.]

“It is unfortunate that all too often saving faith is compared to the choices that people make in life. The argument is as follows :

Faith is a natural faculty that every person has. You are always exercising faith in your life, you couldn’t live a day without doing so. You exercise faith when you go out to start your car. You exercise faith when you board an airplane. Just as you trust that the car will start and the airplane will arrive safely, why don’t you trust Jesus Christ as Savior?

In fact starting a car or boarding an airplane have nothing to do with faith, rather they have to do with an understanding [to a greater or lesser degree] that the probability of the desired event will happen. Therefore, such a comparison is meaningless."

 

[AresMan]

I think the problem is you think there are different qualities of faith, and the high quality leads to salvation. Scripture states it only takes the faith of a child.

The faith of a child is what saving faith is: an utter dependence upon God to do for you what you cannot do for yourself. It is the evidence of things unseen. Flipping on a light switch and rightly expecting the circuitry to perform as it is designed is not "faith." Sitting in a chair and expecting it to do what it is designed to do is not "faith." If either of these things malfunction because of something that went unnoticed that is obviously contrary to the normal expectancy also does not mean that this so-called "faith" was misplaced.

 

[Winman]

The faith of a child is what saving faith is: an utter dependence upon God to do for you what you cannot do for yourself. It is the evidence of things unseen. Flipping on a light switch and rightly expecting the circuitry to perform as it is designed is not "faith." Sitting in a chair and expecting it to do what it is designed to do is not "faith." If either of these things malfunction because of something that went unnoticed that is obviously contrary to the normal expectancy also does not mean that this so-called "faith" was misplaced.

You are incorrect. Look up the word trust or faith in a concordance. You will see that men trust in idols, men trust in riches, or their military power, and many other things. The same word is used, the Bible does not make the distinction for the word trust or faith that you do. It does not speak of a supernaturally imposed faith.

Psa 31:14 But I trusted in thee, O LORD: I said, Thou art my God.

Psa 49:6 They that trust in their wealth, and boast themselves in the multitude of their riches;

Psa 44:6 For I will not trust in my bow, neither shall my sword save me.

Psa 115:4 Their idols are silver and gold, the work of men's hands.
5 They have mouths, but they speak not: eyes have they, but they see not:
6 They have ears, but they hear not: noses have they, but they smell not:
7 They have hands, but they handle not: feet have they, but they walk not: neither speak they through their throat.
8 They that make them are like unto them; so is every one that trusteth in them.

The word trust, trusted, and trusteth is the exact same word in these verses. It is the object of your faith that is important. Your wealth cannot save you, neither power, or false gods. Only Jesus can save you.

Psa 56:11 In God have I put my trust: I will not be afraid what man can do unto me.

 

[Winman]

even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have ye been saved), Eph 2:5


I don't care what elaborate definitions of grace the theologians have come up with over the years. The scriptual definition:

Grace is being brought to life from the dead.

Grace means the undeserved and unmerited favor of God. It means he loved us even though we were sinners worthy of death.

You cannot have access to God's grace without faith.

Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

You are not saved until you come to Christ.

John 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

You cannot come to God unless you have faith.

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

If you cannot have life until you come to Christ, and you cannot come to God unless you have faith, then this shows you have faith before you have life.

And faith comes by hearing the word of God.

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Therefore, you must be able to hear and believe God's word before you have life.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

 

[Winman]

And only GOD can bridge that separation through what Jesus Christ speaks about in John 3:3-8.

3. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
5. Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

As shown in the above Scripture the New Birth is solely the work of GOD the Holy Spirit. Following the New Birth man is given the gift of faith through he will respond to the Gospel [Ephesians 2:8].

John 3:3-8 does not say God regenerates a man to have faith. The word faith is not even mentioned, nor the word regenerated.

Jesus did say you must be born again of the Spirit, but the only effect he showed that a man can discern is that he said we can hear the sound thereof.

John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

This sound is the word of God. Jesus said his words were spirit, and they are life.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Jesus said you must first hear his words, then believe, and then you will get eternal life.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Who is it that has everlasting life? He who hears Jesus's words and believes.

 

[OldRegular]

Winman

In the passage I quoted Jesus Christ said that to enter the Kingdom of God one must be born again of/by the SPIRIT of GOD. And that is a fact. That same truth is taught in Ephesians 2:1-7. Ephesians says that this person is then given the gift of faith. That faith enables him/her to respond to the GOSPEL. The Apostle Paul states that the GOSPEL is

Romans 1:16. For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth;

I have never said that believing the GOSPEL was not an essential part of Salvation. In an earlier post somewhere on this Forum I said:

Conversion

Conversion is the result of conscious act of a regenerate person in which he responds to the ‘effectual call’ and turns to God in faith and repentance. Conversion is in reality an acknowledgment that one has experienced regeneration, and through GOD given faith justification and forgiveness.

It is important to realize that conversion is a personal transaction between God and man. Therefore, since no two people are alike we should not expect that they will have the same conversion experience. God saves people one at a time! Jesus Christ explains conversion in the following manner:

John 3:16, KJV
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

The Apostle Paul explains conversion simply as follows:

Romans 10:9, KJV
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Faith

Faith is an essential aspect of conversion and, though exercised by man, is itself a gift of God.

Ephesians 2:8,9, KJV
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

The prophet Habakkuk who writes [2: 4b]: the just shall live by his faith, is echoed by the Apostle Paul in that great faith chapter of the New Testament, Hebrews 11, which clearly demonstrates that faith is, in fact, a way of life.

Repentance

Like faith repentance is also an essential aspect of conversion. Jesus Christ teaches:

Luke 13:3, KJV
3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

However, the repentance associated with conversion must be proceeded by faith, that is, a person cannot truly repent of his sins against God until he believes that he has sinned against God.

 

[Winman]

Old Regular

Well, we are never going to agree. I know Ephesians 2:8

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

I also know that this verse has been controversial for centuries. Some believe the gift spoken of in this verse pertains to faith, other believe it pertains to the word grace, and still others that it pertains to salvation which is the topic of the passage. I understand you believe it refers to faith as most Calvinists do. I believe it refers to salvation.

The problem is, faith is spoken of in the scriptures literally dozens of times as belonging to the person. The person is also held accountable for having faith, or lack of faith.

Matt 9:27 And when Jesus departed thence, two blind men followed him, crying, and saying, Thou Son of David, have mercy on us.
28 And when he was come into the house, the blind men came to him: and Jesus saith unto them, Believe ye that I am able to do this? They said unto him, Yea, Lord.
29 Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you.

Now, if God gave these two blind men faith, then Jesus seemed to be completely unaware of it. First, he asks them if they believe. Then he says, "according to YOUR faith". So if God gave these men their faith, Jesus's comments are completely non-sensical to say the least.

And I could show you dozens of verses like that.

And what about Hebrews chapter 11, often called the "Hall of Faith"? In this chapter God honors great men of faith like Abraham, Moses, Abel, Noah, Rahab, Isaac, Jacob, Gideon and on and on.

If your doctrine is true, my comment would be, So what? Big deal. So Abraham believed against hope, what is so special about that? You gave him great faith. And so what that Moses gave up wealth and power in Egypt? You gave him this faith, he had no choice in the matter whatsoever.

Why did Jesus marvel when the centurion had great faith?

Matt 8:8 The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed.
9 For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.
10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

Why would Jesus marvel at the centurion's faith if God gave it to him?

I mean, if I gave you a brand new Porsche on Monday, if you drove up in it on Tuesday I would not be filled with marvel.

And if I gave you a pair of leather boots, I wouldn't then ask you if you owned a pair of leather boots. If I did, you would think there was something wrong with me.

But that is exactly the kind of questions Jesus asked people many times. He asked if they believed.

Mark 9:23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.

If your doctrine is true, then Jesus statement to the father of the demon possessed boy is absurd. According to your doctrine, there is no such thing as "if thou canst believe". You either believe or you don't, and Jesus would be completely aware of whether you did or not.

John 11:40 Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?


Again, this would be an absolutely ridiculous question if Calvinism is true. According to your doctrine, God's grace is irresistable. So if God gives you faith, you cannot possibly not believe. And if God does not give you faith, you cannot possibly believe. There is no room for asking "if" according to your doctrine. The only other alternative is to believe that Jesus did not have this knowledge. But the scriptures say Jesus knew from the beginning who would believe, and who would not.

John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

What do Calvinist's do when they come to verses like this? I could probably show you 20 more verses like this that make no sense whatsoever if your doctrine is true.

So, you cling to a single controversial verse to try to prove your doctrine, and ignore literally dozens of verses that prove it false.

 

[OldRegular]

Old Regular

Well, we are never going to agree. I know Ephesians 2:8

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

I also know that this verse has been controversial for centuries. Some believe the gift spoken of in this verse pertains to faith, other believe it pertains to the word grace, and still others that it pertains to salvation which is the topic of the passage. I understand you believe it refers to faith as most Calvinists do. I believe it refers to salvation.

The only reason it is controversial is that some people believe GOD alone cannot save them. They have to help out a little. Makes them feel good.

Is SALVATION the GIFT of GOD? YES!

Is GRACE the GIFT of GOD? YES!

Is FAITH the GIFT of GOD? YES!

Nothing blesses me more, makes me more thankful, than knowing my salvation is entirely the result of the GRACE of GOD. If it were not for HIS GRACE I would be lost eternally.

 

[Benefactor]

The only reason it is controversial is that some people believe GOD alone cannot save them. They have to help out a little. Makes them feel good.

Is SALVATION the GIFT of GOD? YES!

Is GRACE the GIFT of GOD? YES!

Is FAITH the GIFT of GOD? YES!

Nothing blesses me more, makes me more thankful, than knowing my salvation is entirely the result of the GRACE of GOD. If it were not for HIS GRACE I would be lost eternally.

Grace is not described by Scripture as a gift
Believing faith is not described by Scripture as a gift
Salvation is described by Scripture as a gift.

The Biblical definition of faith defies the Calvinist view to force it to be an infused special gift into the soul of man after he is regenerated. One must deny Hebrews 11:1 to hold to a view that believing faith is a special infused gift, much less to say it follows regeneration which cannot and never will be proven from the Bible.

 

[Amy.G]

The Biblical definition of faith defies the Calvinist view to force it to be an infused special gift into the soul of man after he is regenerated. One must deny Hebrews 11:1 to hold to a view that believing faith is a special infused gift, much less to say it follows regeneration which cannot and never will be proven from the Bible.

Good point.

If faith is the substance of things hoped for, and the evidence of things not seen, then by that very definition it must come before regeneration because regeneration (by the Cal definition) is the opening of one's eyes and heart to see and understand.

 

[OldRegular]

Good point.

If faith is the substance of things hoped for, and the evidence of things not seen, then by that very definition it must come before regeneration because regeneration (by the Cal definition) is the opening of one's eyes and heart to see and understand.

That is simply a definition of faith. It does not say where it originates.

 

[OldRegular]

Grace is not described by Scripture as a gift

Before making such a rash statement you should check the Bible.

Ephesians 3:7. Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

Ephesians 4:7. But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

Ephesians 3:2. If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

Ephesians 3:8. Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

1 Peter 4:10. As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God.

Romans 12:3. For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Romans 12:6, Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;

Romans 15:15, Nevertheless, brethren, I have written the more boldly unto you in some sort, as putting you in mind, because of the grace that is given to me of God,

1 Corinthians 1:4. I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;

1 Corinthians 3:10. According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

Galatians 2:9. And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

2 Timothy 1:9. Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

 

[OldRegular]

Believing faith is not described by Scripture as a gift.

Romans 12:3. For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Romans 12:6. Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;

Ephesians 2:8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

1 Corinthians 12:4-9
4. Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5. And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
7. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8. For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9. To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

If faith is spoken of as a Spiritual Gift how can anyone on this Forum argue that what has been called "Saving Faith" is not a gift of GOD, particularly in light of Ephesians 2:8

 

[OldRegular]

Salvation is described by Scripture as a gift.

One out of three is not bad. However, how can you argue that Salvation is a gift but declare that an essential part of Salvation, FAITH, is not a gift, particularly in light of the Scripture showing that FAITH is a gift.

 

[webdog]

That is simply a definition of faith. It does not say where it originates.

Well, since Scripture states it comes from hearing (meaning understanding), those that can hear and understand are the ones that can have faith, and that is the origin.

 

[OldRegular]

Well, since Scripture states it comes from hearing (meaning understanding), those that can hear and understand are the ones that can have faith, and that is the origin.

I posted Scripture saying it is a gift! You can believe what pleases you!

 

[The Archangel]

Well, since Scripture states it comes from hearing (meaning understanding), those that can hear and understand are the ones that can have faith, and that is the origin.

If you're referring to Romans 10:17, the word is not referring to understanding. The word refers to hearing as the faculty of hearing. Perhaps it would be better to think of the organ of hearing--the ear.

So, while your interpretation of this passage is common, it does not conform to the Greek of the word.

Blessings,

The Archangel