For By Grace Are Ye Saved

[Winman]

I ask you again, have I said anywhere that faith is not required for salvation?

You are avoiding my question.

You have said that faith is not required for the New Birth.

You have said I misrepresent you, so I showed you your own words. So, I'm asking you straight out, do you believe a person can be regenerated by the Holy Spirit and not be saved?

 

[OldRegular]

I have posted the following more than once on this Forum.
OldRegular

Salvation, A Multifaceted Gem

Salvation, the blessing of grace, is that work of the Triune God by which He eternally redeems and reconciles to Himself those chosen in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world [Ephesians 1:4], freeing them from bondage to sin and His holy wrath. That salvation is purchased by the blood of the Incarnate Son [Romans 5: 9; Hebrews 9: 14; 1 Peter 1: 18; 1 John 1: 7; Revelation 1: 5; Revelation 7: 14], the blood of the everlasting covenant [Matthew 26: 28; Hebrews 13: 20], and is made effective in the life of the elect by the Holy Spirit through union with Jesus Christ. Salvation from beginning to end is entirely by the Sovereign Grace of the Triune God.

Salvation is a once for all time occurrence in the life of the elect. However, as we see explicitly in Romans 8:28-30, and throughout Scripture, there are a number of events that are associated with salvation. In some of these man takes an active roll but in most of them he is entirely passive. If we consider salvation, this blessing of grace, as a multifaceted gem, we may better appreciate both the gift of salvation and the work of God, in particular God the Holy Spirit, in the salvation of those whom God the Father, before the foundation of the world, has chosen in Jesus Christ, God the Son.


1. Regeneration

The initial event in salvation is regeneration, the theological term synonymous with ‘rebirth’ or ‘being born again’. Regeneration is solely the work of God the Holy Spirit whereby those who are spiritually dead in trespass and sin are made spiritual alive and are brought into union with Jesus Christ [Ephesians 2:1-9]. Although Regeneration is the initial event in Salvation the following aspects are not necessarily in chronological order.


2. Union with Jesus Christ

Union with Jesus Christ is an integral part, a condition, of God’s electing grace and this union is solely the work of God the Holy Spirit.


3. Effectual Calling

Insofar as man himself is aware, the initial event in salvation is the effectual calling of the Holy Spirit. It is an observable fact that not all who hear the Gospel accept it and come to salvation. The regenerate do, the unregenerate do not.


4. Conversion

Conversion is the result of conscious act of a regenerate person in which he responds to the effectual call and turns to God in faith and repentance. Conversion is in reality an acknowledgment that one has experienced regeneration.


4a. Saving Faith

Saving faith is an essential aspect of conversion and, though exercised by man, is itself a gift of God [Ephesians 2:8,9] The prophet Habakkuk who writes [2: 4b]: the just shall live by his faith, is echoed by the Apostle Paul in that great faith chapter of the New Testament, Hebrews 11, which clearly demonstrates that faith is, in fact, a way of life.


4b. Repentance

Like faith repentance is also an essential aspect of conversion. However, the repentance associated with conversion must be proceeded by faith, that is, a person cannot truly repent of his sins against God until he believes that God is and that he has sinned against God.


5. Pardon

A righteous God cannot overlook sin for the wages of sin is death [Romans 6.23]. Man is not a sinner because he sins but man sins because he is a sinner. As such he is subject to the wrath of God [Romans 5:12, Romans 1:18]. All who exercise God given repentance obtain forgiveness through Jesus Christ. Forgiveness or pardon implies deliverance from the penalty of sin.


6. Justification

Justification is a judicial act whereby the unjust sinner is declared righteous in the sight of a just and holy God. John Dagg in his Manuel of Theology [page 265] notes that justification is a higher blessing of grace than pardon. Pardon frees from the penalty that follows sin, justification frees us from the guilt of sin. Justification is by faith alone [Romans 5:1] and that faith itself is the gift of God [Ephesians 2:8,9].

7. Adoption

God adopts as sons all who believe in Jesus Christ [Galatians 3:26, 1 John 3:1, Romans 8:16,17]. Although we are called the sons of God and joint heirs with Jesus Christ this does not mean that we occupy the same position relative to God the Father as Jesus Christ [John 10:30-33, Colossians 2:9, Philippians 2:5-10]. When God the Son took upon Himself the form of man He laid aside His Glory but not His Deity. Though we are called the sons of God by adoption we will never be divine.


8. Sanctification

The Holy Spirit continues to sanctify those whom He has regenerated and finally prepares them fully for the service and enjoyment of life in the presence of God.


9. Perseverance or Security of the True Believer

The doctrine of the ‘Perseverance of the Saints’ or the ‘Security of the True Believer’ is one that is cherished by most Baptists. The statement from the 1677 [or 1689] Baptist Confession of Faith [Lumpkin, Baptist Confessions of Faith, page 272] expresses this doctrine in the following excerpt:

Those whom God hath accepted in the Beloved, effectually called and sanctified by His Spirit, and given the precious faith of His elect unto, can neither totally nor finally fall from the state of grace; but shall certainly persevere therein to the end and be eternally saved, seeing the gifts and calling of God are without repentance, (whence He still begets and nourishish them in Faith, Repentance, Love, Joy, Hope, and all the graces of the Spirit unto immortality).


10. Assurance of Salvation

If we do not believe that True Believer’s are kept by the power of God and will persevere to the end it is doubtful that we can ever have any assurance of our salvation. Therefore, every passage of Scripture that demonstrates the security of the believer should provide the believer assurance of that security. The first basis for assurance is the testimony of the Word of God. The second basis for assurance of salvation is subjective. The Apostle John tells us [1 John 5:10]: He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself. That witness is the indwelling Holy Spirit


11. Glorification

God will bring to glory those He has saved through the sacrifice of His Son. Glorification is the final facet on the gem of salvation. Redemption is complete, the sin struggle is over. We who are heirs and joint heirs with Jesus Christ [Romans 8:17] will be like Him for we will see Him as He is [1 John 3:2].

 

[Allan]

I have posted the following more than once on this Forum.
OldRegular

Yes you have, and it still is not entirely accurate but at least it's a good start :thumbs:.

 

[Winman]

Yes you have, and it still is not entirely accurate but at least it's a good start :thumbs:.

It's not even close to being accurate or scriptural

1. Regeneration

The initial event in salvation is regeneration, the theological term synonymous with ‘rebirth’ or ‘being born again’. Regeneration is solely the work of God the Holy Spirit whereby those who are spiritually dead in trespass and sin are made spiritual alive and are brought into union with Jesus Christ [Ephesians 2:1-9]. Although Regeneration is the initial event in Salvation the following aspects are not necessarily in chronological order.

This says you are born again before you hear and believe the gospel. But the scriptures say you are born again "by the word of God".

1 Pet 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

3. Effectual Calling

Insofar as man himself is aware, the initial event in salvation is the effectual calling of the Holy Spirit. It is an observable fact that not all who hear the Gospel accept it and come to salvation. The regenerate do, the unregenerate do not.

This just confirms what I just said, they believe a person is first born again, and only after being born again can they accept the gospel and "come to salvation".

So, they are in fact saying that a person is born again, but not yet saved. It says the first event "insofar as man himself is aware" is this effectual calling, but a man must first be regenerated or born again to hear and accept the gospel.

And again, they say faith is a gift and use Ephesians 2:8-9 as a proof text, a verse that has been controversial for centuries.

But even here, they are saying that a man is first born again before he can receive the gift of faith.

Therefore, they are also claiming a person is born again without faith, just as Old Regular himself implied:

Notice that this New Birth is the work of the Holy Spirit alone. Nothing is said about the requirement of prior faith.

You see, Old Regular himself strongly implies that a person does not have to have faith to be born again.

So, this is utterly unscriptural.

 

[TomVols]

Nothing of the sort....read what he actually wrote:

not all who hear the Gospel accept it and come to salvation.

Conversion is the result of conscious act of a regenerate person in which he responds to the effectual call and turns to God in faith and repentance.

Saving faith is an essential aspect of conversion and, though exercised by man, is itself a gift of God [Ephesians 2:8,9]

Like faith repentance is also an essential aspect of conversion. However, the repentance associated with conversion must be proceeded by faith, that is, a person cannot truly repent of his sins against God until he believes that God is and that he has sinned against God.

All who exercise God given repentance obtain forgiveness through Jesus Christ.

God adopts as sons all who believe in Jesus Christ

The Apostle John tells us [1 John 5:10]: He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself. That witness is the indwelling Holy Spirit

Eisegesis, sophistry, and now just making things up? :tongue3:

 

[Winman]

Eisegesis, sophistry, and now just making things up?

Such fancy words, I am really impressed. (rolls eyes)

I haven't twisted or misrepresented any thing here. Old Regular submitted this statement:

1. Regeneration

The initial event in salvation is regeneration, the theological term synonymous with ‘rebirth’ or ‘being born again’. Regeneration is solely the work of God the Holy Spirit whereby those who are spiritually dead in trespass and sin are made spiritual alive and are brought into union with Jesus Christ [Ephesians 2:1-9]. Although Regeneration is the initial event in Salvation the following aspects are not necessarily in chronological order.

And he also submitted this:

Notice that this New Birth is the work of the Holy Spirit alone. Nothing is said about the requirement of prior faith.

Now, he doesn't directly say that faith is not required to be born again, but he strongly implies it. So I haven't misrepresented him whatsoever.

And Havensdad said very similar.

He tells us, elsewhere, that if the father does not draw you, if the father does not give you ears to hear, if the father does not give you new birth you cannot even hear the Gospel, which the scriptures say is what causes faith.

Havensdad says without the "new birth" a person does not have the ability to hear the gospel, which he says the scriptures say is what causes faith.

So, if you cannot have faith until you hear the gospel, and you cannot hear the gospel until you are born again or experience this new birth, then therefore you are born again without faith.

So I did not misrepresent anyone or twist anything here, your charges against me are false (but expected).

Calvinists reverse the order of events shown in scripture in salvation.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

The scriptures show the order as this:

#1 Hear the gospel
#2 Trust or believe
#3 Be sealed with the Spirit (born again)

But Calvinism teaches that man first receives the Spirit and is born again. And only then can a man have a desire to seek God, and an ability to hear and understand the scriptures, and have faith.

This is utterly false, the scriptures show we are born again "by the word of God".

1 Pet 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Being born again follows hearing the gospel and believeing it, just as Ephesians 1:13 and 1 Peter 1:23 show.

So it is not me who is practicing eisegesis and sophistry. Maybe you should look in the mirror.

 

[psalms109:31]

Grace by faith

We are saved by grace because the debt for our sin is death. We do not have to pay our debt Jesus did. We are saved by grace. We believe in this and this is what saved us. We believe in God and His word over what we have believed. We trust God and not ourselves. Once we know the price Jesus paid how can we go on living the life we once lived. This faith came from God and His word not from ourselves. Jesus will change us if we do believe the price He paid for us. The only way the veil is lifted from our eyes and the eyes of our heart is when we turn to Jesus for our salvation.

 

[The Archangel]

Calvinists reverse the order of events shown in scripture in salvation.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

The scriptures show the order as this:

#1 Hear the gospel
#2 Trust or believe
#3 Be sealed with the Spirit (born again)

But Calvinism teaches that man first receives the Spirit and is born again. And only then can a man have a desire to seek God, and an ability to hear and understand the scriptures, and have faith.

Get a better translation. The original text, as I have repeatedly pointed out, does not say what you have posted.

This is utterly false, the scriptures show we are born again "by the word of God".

1 Pet 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Being born again follows hearing the gospel and believeing it, just as Ephesians 1:13 and 1 Peter 1:23 show.

"Being born again" is not a verb, it is a participle and it is passive. So, there is nothing we have done to be born again, according to the Greek. Do I believe we must respond to God's gospel? Yes, absolutely. But that is not what this verse is talking about.

You are taking this verse out of context so as to proof-text your position. You are free to make your case, you just can't do it from this verse.

So it is not me who is practicing eisegesis and sophistry. Maybe you should look in the mirror.

These sort of things are so unhelpful. You are, in fact, practicing eisegesis and proof-texting. What is more, and this is a challenge we all face, you are holding to your presuppositions in light of overwhelming evidence from people who may just know more than you. Now, I and other people are not trying to make you into a Calvinist, that would be silly. What we are trying to do is to have you look at the text itself. Unfortunately, that is something that heretofore, you have been unwilling to do.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[Winman]

We believe in God and His word over what we have believed. We trust God and not ourselves.

Here is the problem right here, you think believeing is a work we perform, but it is not.

Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Believeing is not a work. It is clearly contrasted several times in this passage against works.

Believeing or trusting means to cease from work or self-effort. It is to place the work of saving your soul in Jesus's hands and allowing him to save you.

When I go to the bank and give them my money, I am trusting them to take care of it. I no longer have it in my possession, I no longer have control over it. And I am trusting that they will keep it for me safely, and I can come back later and withdraw it.

Have you ever noticed how many financial institutions call themselves "trusts"
These institutions are called "trust companies"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trust_company

And do you know what a trustee is?

1. a person, usually one of a body of persons, appointed to administer the affairs of a company, institution, etc.
2. a person who holds the title to property for the benefit of another.
3. (in New England) a garnishee.
4. a trusty.

Notice #2 especially, it says a person who holds the title to property for the benefit of another.

Well, this is what trusting Christ means. It means to give your very soul to Jesus, and put all responsibility for saving you in his hands. You are depending on him 100% to save you, you make no effort of your own to save yourself whatsoever.

Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Do you see what Jesus did on the cross here? He commended or entrusted his very spirit into the hands of his Father. And then he gave up the ghost. Jesus voluntarily gave up the ghost here, he died much sooner than the other two that were crucified with him. Pilate was amazed because Jesus died so soon before the others. They had to break the other men's legs so they could not support themselves and would die sooner. But when they came to Christ he was already dead.

John 19:32 Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him.
33 But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:

Mark 15:44 And Pilate marvelled if he were already dead: and calling unto him the centurion, he asked him whether he had been any while dead.

It is a fearful thing to die, most men would fight to their last breath to stay alive. But Jesus voluntarily gave up his ghost and entrusted his spirit to the Father to save him. And God did, he raised him up three days later.

But even for Jesus this was a difficult thing. He did not enjoy what he had to suffer.

Matt 26:38 Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.

Jesus showed us here what believeing is. It is to entrust our souls to him, and depend upon him 100% to save us. It is not a work on our part, no, we cease from all self-effort and give ourselves over to him.

It is only because men have taught you that believeing is a work that you misunderstand. The scriptures show that believeing is not a work.

 

[psalms109:31]

Work

John 6:28-30 (New International Version)

28Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"

29Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

Believing is to stop working for your salvation and trust in God. We can not save ourselves for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God and the wages of sin is death not belief. So you are saved by grace through faith in Jesus and it is not of ourselves this was given to us from God through His word.

Hebrews 7 (New International Version)18The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless 19(for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.

 

[Winman]

Get a better translation. The original text, as I have repeatedly pointed out, does not say what you have posted.



"Being born again" is not a verb, it is a participle and it is passive. So, there is nothing we have done to be born again, according to the Greek. Do I believe we must respond to God's gospel? Yes, absolutely. But that is not what this verse is talking about.

You are taking this verse out of context so as to proof-text your position. You are free to make your case, you just can't do it from this verse.



These sort of things are so unhelpful. You are, in fact, practicing eisegesis and proof-texting. What is more, and this is a challenge we all face, you are holding to your presuppositions in light of overwhelming evidence from people who may just know more than you. Now, I and other people are not trying to make you into a Calvinist, that would be silly. What we are trying to do is to have you look at the text itself. Unfortunately, that is something that heretofore, you have been unwilling to do.

Blessings,

The Archangel

Your knowledge of Greek won't get you to heaven. You need to trust the scriptures, instead of trying to tear them apart.

1 Tim 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

 

[The Archangel]

Your knowledge of Greek won't get you to heaven. You need to trust the scriptures, instead of trying to tear them apart.

1 Tim 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

Ah...I see. Don't deal with the text--attack the person.

For the record I have never claimed my knowledge of Greek will get me to heaven, nor will it get anyone else to heaven. My ticket to heaven is the same as it is for any believer--the shed blood of Jesus Christ.

No, what knowledge of the Greek allows is a better understanding of the author actually intended to say--and that is the issue. It does no one, Calvinist or Arminian, any good to intentionally miss what the author is actually intending to say over against what we think he is saying.

Now, if by your posting of the 1 Timothy passage you are trying to say that I am "Proud, know nothing, corrupt, and a false teacher" simply because I don't agree with your errant interpretation (or the biblical translation you choose to use) you are kidding yourself. And I might add it is particularly troubling, if you did intend to call me those things, because it is clearly conduct unbecoming of a Christian brother and I deserve better from you (as well as everyone else who disagrees with you).

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[DHK]

Your knowledge of Greek won't get you to heaven. You need to trust the scriptures, instead of trying to tear them apart.

1 Tim 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

In the future avoid such personal attacks. Questioning one's salvation is definitely against the rules. You have done that in the Scripture you have posted: "Men of corrupt minds, destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness, from such withdraw thyself," does not describe Archangel.

Neither does the accusation that he does not trust in the Scriptures.
Deal with the OP, not attacking the person.

 

[webdog]

"Being born again" is not a verb, it is a participle and it is passive. So, there is nothing we have done to be born again, according to the Greek. Do I believe we must respond to God's gospel? Yes, absolutely. But that is not what this verse is talking about.

Being saved and born again are one in the same thing. Faith is indeed a requirement in being born again (passing from spiritual death to spiritual life).

 

[Winman]

In the future avoid such personal attacks. Questioning one's salvation is definitely against the rules. You have done that in the Scripture you have posted: "Men of corrupt minds, destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness, from such withdraw thyself," does not describe Archangel.

Neither does the accusation that he does not trust in the Scriptures.
Deal with the OP, not attacking the person.

Well, I will not do that in the future, but notice how they both accused me of eisegesis and sophistry first.

Eisegesis:

an interpretation, esp. of Scripture, that expresses the interpreter's own ideas, bias, or the like, rather than the meaning of the text.

Sophistry:

1. a subtle, tricky, superficially plausible, but generally fallacious method of reasoning.
2. a false argument; sophism.

So, they accuse me of expressing my own interpretation of scripture rather than showing the correct interpretation, and then of using subtle, tricky arguments and that is OK?

Why were they not warned? Tom Vols post was made yesterday, I did not answer till today.

I will refrain from this, but fair is fair.

 

[DHK]

Well, I will not do that in the future, but notice how they both accused me of eisegesis and sophistry first.

Eisegesis:

an interpretation, esp. of Scripture, that expresses the interpreter's own ideas, bias, or the like, rather than the meaning of the text.

Sophistry:

1. a subtle, tricky, superficially plausible, but generally fallacious method of reasoning.
2. a false argument; sophism.

So, they accuse me of expressing my own interpretation of scripture rather than showing the correct interpretation, and then of using subtle, tricky arguments and that is OK?

Why were they not warned? Tom Vols post was made yesterday, I did not answer till today.

I will refrain from this, but fair is fair.

Without reading the thread and the original post, and just reading what you have posted here, I don't see any rules violated. They gave definition of terms. Perhaps your method of interpretation was wrong; I don't know. But one thing they didn't do was question your salvation and attack your person. Questioning your method of interpretation is one thing. Attacking your character is quite another. And when one has inferred that a poster is not saved he has stepped over the line.

 

[Winman]

Well, accusing someone of being subtle and tricky is an attack against their character.

If you will go over my posts, you will see I rarely attack the other person's character, but I have had my character attacked like this many times. I post scripture, I make my arguments from scipture. If a person thinks I misunderstand or misrepresent scripture, I can handle that. Make your argument.

But using flowery words doesn't hide the fact that they were both insulting my character. I simply responded in kind.

 

[Winman]

You are, in fact, practicing eisegesis

Who attacked who?

What is more, and this is a challenge we all face, you are holding to your presuppositions in light of overwhelming evidence from people who may just know more than you.

Who is showing pride here?

Seems to me you can dish it out, but you can't take it yourself.

I happen to believe the scriptures are infallible. You aren't going to get anywhere with me arguing that the scriptures are full of error. I happen to believe that a perfect God can preserve his word as he promised.

Jesus said we are to live by every word of God.

Matt 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Now if God is just (and he is), and he expects us to live by every word (and he does), then common sense and logic would argue that God would provide every word.

In Revelations God warned against adding or subtracting from his word.

Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Now, you don't need a PhD in theology to conclude that if God warns us not to add or take from his word, then God's exact and perfect word exists and can be known. Think about that.

Now, this is a different subject altogether, I have had endless debates with those who think certain versions of the scriptures are full of errors. Rarely if ever does anyone change their opinions on this subject, so I am not going to argue with you.

But when I read Ephesians 1:13 which says we first hear the gospel, then afterward trust or believe it, and then after that are sealed with the Holy Spirit, I believe it.

And I have shown several examples in the book of Acts where unsaved men heard the gospel, then believed it, and then afterward received the Holy Spirit. So I have plenty of scripture to back up my position.

 

[DHK]

Who attacked who?

I don't know if it was an attack. It doesn't look like it. Were you exegeting or eisegeting? That is the nature of debate.

Who is showing pride here?

Since the poster used "people" he wasn't necessarily referring to himself. Are there people who know more than you? If you don't concede that point, then brother you are the one that is displaying a great deal of pride.

Seems to me you can dish it out, but you can't take it yourself.

I happen to believe the scriptures are infallible. You aren't going to get anywhere with me arguing that the scriptures are full of error. I happen to believe that a perfect God can preserve his word as he promised.

Does anyone else believe any different? We all believe that we have the Word of God today. If you want to argue other related points relating to mvs, KJV, received text, etc. then take it to the versions forum. This is not the place for it.

Jesus said we are to live by every word of God.

Matt 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Now if God is just (and he is), and he expects us to live by every word (and he does), then common sense and logic would argue that God would provide every word.

No one is arguing that.

In Revelations God warned against adding or subtracting from his word.

Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

To use that Scripture against anyone on this board is attack on their salvation. Don't you understand that. Who are you saying here that doesn't have their name written in the Lamb's book of life? Who are you accusing? Who is not saved? Why are you breaking the rules like this?

Now, you don't need a PhD in theology to conclude that if God warns us not to add or take from his word, then God's exact and perfect word exists and can be known. Think about that.

Who are you accusing of this. If this is a versions debate then take it to the versions forum, otherwise leave the false accusations alone, and stop accusing others of being unsaved.

Now, this is a different subject altogether, I have had endless debates with those who think certain versions of the scriptures are full of errors. Rarely if ever does anyone change their opinions on this subject, so I am not going to argue with you.

I am not going to argue with you. Continual violation of the rules results first in a suspension and then in a ban. Consider this a warning. The rules are at the bottom of each page. You agreed to abide by them when you registered and hit that button that said "I agree."

But when I read Ephesians 1:13 which says we first hear the gospel, then afterward trust or believe it, and then after that are sealed with the Holy Spirit, I believe it.

And I have shown several examples in the book of Acts where unsaved men heard the gospel, then believed it, and then afterward received the Holy Spirit. So I have plenty of scripture to back up my position.

You don't have a leg to stand on when you call others on this board unsaved. Either stop accusing others of such or face a possible suspension.

 

[Winman]

To use that Scripture against anyone on this board is attack on their salvation. Don't you understand that. Who are you saying here that doesn't have their name written in the Lamb's book of life? Who are you accusing? Who is not saved? Why are you breaking the rules like this?

I was not attacking anyone here. I was showing scripture (Matt 4:4 and Rev 22:18-19) that convinces me personally that the pure, infallible word of God exists and can be known and recognized.

How can you know if you are adding or taking away from God's word unless you know what the exact words of God are? You can't. This is pure and sound logic.

I was simply expressing my own opinion of the scriptures. Archangel argued that Ephesians 1:13 does not really mean what it is easily understood to say.

He is entitled to that opinion, I was just saying that I will never be convinced from this type of argument.

It was Archangel that said:

Get a better translation. The original text, as I have repeatedly pointed out, does not say what you have posted.

What does "better translation" mean? He is saying the version I choose to believe (KJV) is inferior. He is making the attack.

So again, they are allowed to tell me I need a "better translation" of scriptures, implying my version is inferior, yet I am accused of attacking him.