For By Grace Are Ye Saved

[Winman]

Double post, please go to next post.

 

[Winman]

I am going to try this one more time, for some reason a previous post did not show here.

Ares Man and Old Regular, you are both seeking natural answers to scripture, not spiritual. You cannot understand the scriptures through man's wisdom. This is what Paul spoke of in 1st and 2nd Corinthians.

1 Cor 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

A favorite verse of Calvinists is 1 Corinthians 2:14, but it is misused. It must be taken in context with chapter 1. Read 1 Cor 2:14 in context with the verses we have just seen in chapter 1 and the meaning becomes clear.

1 Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

When Paul says "the natural man" here, he is specifically speaking of the Greeks who sought to understand everything through natural explanations and man's wisdom. To the Greeks, spiritual matters were foolishness (1 Cor 1:23), Paul says that several times of the Greeks in chapter 1. The Jews on the other hand were very spiritual people, however the gospel was a stumblingblock to them, believeing a man saved by keeping the law (vs 23).

In 1 Cor 2:14 it first says the natural man "receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God". It is not that they could not hear and understand, they refused to even listen to spiritual arguments. Everything to them must be explained through natural explanations. Spiritual explanations were foolishness to them. And therefore they cannot understand spiritual explanations.

And we see this humanistic belief in the world today, men try to explain how the universe got here though natural processes, they believe the creation account in Genesis foolish. We got this humanistic philosophy from the Greeks and it is still popular today.

And this is exactly what you are doing. You are asking for a natural explanation as to why some men choose against God, and others choose for God. You will never understand spiritual matters through human reasoning and wisdom.

No, you need to hear the scriptures which are spiritual and believe them. They are spiritually discerned (vs 14), and that is the only way to understand them.

 

[AresMan]

This is such an absurd argument. The question of why some men refuse to come to God and others choose to come to God has been answered from scripture already. God knows the hearts of men, and says some men love darkness, while other do truth.

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

As I said before, merely stating the fact that some remain in darkness and others come to the light does NOT explain why they do so. I believe that there are other Scriptures that explain the why of both cases.

These very scriptures disprove the Calvinistic view of Total Depravity. Yes, man is a sinner, we all sin. But God did not curse man's nature in the garden of Eden.

No. Look at them again.

Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and MEN loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

This verse shows everyone by default.

Joh 3:20 FOR every one that doeth evil [see v. 19] hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

This is a description of "men" in the previous verse. This is everyone by default.

Joh 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

This verse shows the exception. The reason people are doing truth and coming to the light shows the effectual work of God on their behalf.

Man knows both good and evil, and can choose between the two.

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:[/quote]Man may know good and evil (as opposed to merely good before the fall), but that doesn't mean that man can choose real (God-pleasing) good vs. evil arbitrarily under the fallen nature. This statement sounds rather Pelagian to me. Are we born with a "blank slate"?

Dagg and other Calvinistic commentators are wrong when they say an unsaved man will always choose against God. I showed the example of Zacchaeus, who did not even know who Jesus was. But surely he saw the crowds that followed Jesus and very likely heard of his miracles. He had a great desire to see who Jesus was and ran ahead of the crowd and climbed a tree being a very short individual.

Zacchaeus, not knowing who Jesus was (as you said), being curious about whom the crowds are following does NOT prove that one seeks after God as He is. We both know that Zacchaeus did not demonstrate saving faith until Jesus called him and came to His house.

When Jesus called to him he did not rebel but came down quickly and received him joyfully. After spending time with Jesus he came to realize he was the promised Messiah and called him "Lord". And Jesus himself confirmed that he was not saved before saying, "This day is salvation come to this house".

Maybe because Jesus' call was an effectual call.

So, when Zacchaeus heard of Jesus, he did not rebel, but sought him out, yet being unsaved.

You don't understand what Total Depravity means. It does NOT mean that everyone is bad as he can possibly be. It means that the totality of one's being--body, mind, soul, spirit--is affected by the fall. Zacchaeus did not seek after God as He is until he was regenerated.

The young rich ruler came to inquire how to have eternal life while being unsaved.

Yup. He wanted eternal life on his own terms (as everyone does). He thought he was good enough to merit eternal life. He did not want eternal life on God's terms.

Crowds of thousands followed Jesus.

So what? Crowds followed Jesus for the wrong reasons. In John 6 crowds followed Jesus as a king who would feed them physical bread forever. They did not follow Jesus for Who He is. They forsake Him when He revealed to them Who He is.

You obviously still do not understand what total depravity really means.

So, this doctrine of Dagg's and other Calvinists is false and clearly contradicted by much scripture.

Try again.

And this argument of yours saying we cannot answer why some men rebel against God and others do not is silly. Some men love evil and the pleasures of sin, while some men seek after righteousness.

Merely stating the conundrum does not explain the conundrum. Merely stating what people do does not explain why they do it. Yes, some Scriptures state the fact that some remain in darkness and some come to the light. This alone does not answer why these people do what they do. I contend that other Scriptures answer this question of why most remain in darkness and why some come to the light.

Matt 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

It is because you have accepted this erroneous doctrine that you cannot conceive that unsaved man knows both good and evil and can freely choose between the two.

I know that unsaved man knows good and evil, he just wants the evil because of his nature. The fact that some people do get saved is because God draws them out of the miry clay and gives them a new nature so that they want God's good.

You cannot seem to understand that merely stating a fact does not explain its cause. Merely stating that some remain in darkness and some come to the light does not explain why they do so. Merely stating "because they choose out of free will" still does not explain why they made the choice that they made. If there is no why, then the choice was arbitrary and random, eliminating just cause for accountability.

Why not accept what the scriptures clearly show and abandon this man-made doctrine?

You are the one who is only accepting the Scriptures that state certain facts, but rejecting the clear teaching of other Scriptures that actually explain these facts.

If Jesus himself says that some men love darkness (and he did), why not just take him at his word? He knows the hearts of men.

I am taking Him at His word. I am also taking Him at His word in other places that actually explain why some love darkness and others come to the light.

Luke 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

I am quite satisfied with Jesus's answer to this question. I do not need to know man's opinions.

You still have not explained why.

 

[The Archangel]

This is such an absurd argument...

Since you said this to AresMan, I hope you won't mind me saying to you. Your argument, below, is absurd--now, I want to make sure you know I am saying "your argument" is absurd, not you. The argument is absurd because it is based on a false premise which is gotten from a basic misunderstanding of vocabulary.

You write:

But God did not curse man's nature in the garden of Eden. Man knows both good and evil, and can choose between the two.

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

You are placing a meaning on "to know good and evil" that is not there in the Hebrew. First, the verb is a Qal, Active, Infinitive and it means knowledge of, experience with, etc.

It does not, and cannot, mean what you suggest; it cannot mean "and can choose between the two."

So, this is why I am saying your argument is absurd--you imbuing a word with a meaning that you want it to have, rather than to take the word for what it actually means.

Did Adam and Eve know good and evil as a result of the fall. Yes. Why? Because they had experienced (through an act of commission, or sin) evil personally.

This text in no way, shape, or form suggests that this knowledge of good and evil carries the ability to choose. Your statement "...and an choose between the two" is not in the text, it something that is read into the text by you to support your presuppositions. This is eisegesis.

Blessings

The Archangel

 

[OldRegular]

Ares Man and Old Regular, you are both seeking natural answers to scripture, not spiritual.

It is you who are seeking natural answers to Scripture. It is you who claims that the natural man is able to respond or ignore the Gospel. Those who believe the Biblical teaching of the Sovereign Grace of God in Salvation believe that the natural man is unable to respond affirmatively to the Gospel.

You place 1 Corinthians 2:14 in the incorrect context and totally misinterpret the passage. Take that passage in its proper context beginning with 1 Corinthians 2:9:

1 Corinthians 2:9-16
9. But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Notice verse 11 above: the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. From this we see that the unsaved man cannot understand the things of God. The unsaved man is spiritually dead in trespasses and sins as the Apostle Paul tells us in Ephesians 2:2-5. This is confirmed by the Apostle in Verse 14 above:

14. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

When the Apostle Paul says the natural man he means the unregenerate man. The Greek word Paul uses here is psuchikos [psoo-khee-kos']; translated in the KJV as natural 4, times and sensual twice according to Thayers and has the following meaning:

1) of or belonging to breath
1a) having the nature and characteristics of the breath
1a1) the principal of animal life, which men have in common with the brutes
1b) governed by breath
1b1) the sensuous nature with its subjection to appetite and passion

You write about 1 Corinthians 2:14:

In 1 Cor 2:14 it first says the natural man "receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God". It is not that they could not hear and understand, they refused to even listen to spiritual arguments. Everything to them must be explained through natural explanations. Spiritual explanations were foolishness to them. And therefore they cannot understand spiritual explanations.

And we see this humanistic belief in the world today, men try to explain how the universe got here though natural processes, they believe the creation account in Genesis foolish. We got this humanistic philosophy from the Greeks and it is still popular today.

And this is exactly what you are doing. You are asking for a natural explanation as to why some men choose against God, and others choose for God. You will never understand spiritual matters through human reasoning and wisdom.

No, you need to hear the scriptures which are spiritual and believe them. They are spiritually discerned (vs 14), and that is the only way to understand them.

It is you Winman who are claiming that this natural man is able to understand the Gospel Call and accept or reject as he wills. It is those who believe in the Biblical Doctrines of the Sovereign Grace of God in Salvation who believe that this natural man is unable to respond because as the Apostle says in verse 9: the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.; and again in Verse 14: But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Those of us who believe the Biblical Doctrines of the Sovereign Grace of God in Salvation believe that the will of man must be changed by God the Holy Spirit so that he is able to understand at least the Gospel call and is given the faith to believe. This is taught so clearly on Ephesians 2:1-10.

But I will not leave this to the Apostle Paul alone. Jesus Christ clearly teaches that the unsaved man of himself is unable to respond on his own.

John 6:44. No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:65.And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

So we see that no man can come to Jesus Christ for salvation unless it is given unto him by God the Father. This is what the Apostle Paul discusses in Ephesians 2:1-8 and to some extent in the above passage from 1 Corinthians. The Apostle Paul makes another interesting observation in the following Scripture: Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. [1Corinthians 12:3] Please note that the Apostle says: no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. Yet you say that the unsaved man, the natural man, can say that Jesus is Lord contrary to what Scripture teaches.

Now back to the words of our Savior:

John 10:26, 27
26. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Who are the sheep of Jesus Christ? They are those chosen unto salvation in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world.

 

[Winman]

Since you said this to AresMan, I hope you won't mind me saying to you. Your argument, below, is absurd--now, I want to make sure you know I am saying "your argument" is absurd, not you. The argument is absurd because it is based on a false premise which is gotten from a basic misunderstanding of vocabulary.

You write:



You are placing a meaning on "to know good and evil" that is not there in the Hebrew. First, the verb is a Qal, Active, Infinitive and it means knowledge of, experience with, etc.

It does not, and cannot, mean what you suggest; it cannot mean "and can choose between the two."

So, this is why I am saying your argument is absurd--you imbuing a word with a meaning that you want it to have, rather than to take the word for what it actually means.

Did Adam and Eve know good and evil as a result of the fall. Yes. Why? Because they had experienced (through an act of commission, or sin) evil personally.

This text in no way, shape, or form suggests that this knowledge of good and evil carries the ability to choose. Your statement "...and an choose between the two" is not in the text, it something that is read into the text by you to support your presuppositions. This is eisegesis.

Blessings

The Archangel

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black, where in scripture does it say God cursed man's nature so that he cannot choose between good and evil?

Not one word to that effect is mentioned in the curse God pronounced upon Adam and Eve in the garden (or anywhere else in scripture). That is a man-made doctrine and error.

But that man is able to choose between good and evil is shown many times.

Deut 30:I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

This verse is absolutely clear unless a person chooses to ignore it willfully. It says God has set before them life and death, blessing and cursing. And then God urges them to choose life.

It is clearly shown here that man can recognize life and death, blessing and cursing. Man knows both good and evil.

If your doctrine is true, these very words of God would be absurd. You make God to appear as a fool, telling men to choose between good and evil when according to your doctrine, God would know they cannot possibly choose good. What a foolish doctrine.

 

[Winman]

And Old Regular, I have rightly divided the word in both 1st and 2nd Corinthians, it is Calvinism that pulls 1 Cor 2:14 out of context.

1 Cor 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

1 Cor 1:20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

Paul does not here say that the gospel is to the Jews foolishness. The Jews were a spiritual people as are all the decendents of Shem. One can easily observe how religious all peoples of the Middle East are.

No, to the Jews the gospel is a stumblingblock. They believed a person was saved by keeping the law. They are clearly distinguished from the Greeks in 1 Cor 1:23. They are spiritual people.

Rom 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

The Jews were and continue to be a very religious and spiritual people. They were seeking God, Romans 9:32 says so. But they were ignorant of the righteousness that is attained through faith in Christ and sought righteousness through the law. They stumbled at this concept.

The Greeks on the other hand worship man's wisdom and seek to explain everything through natural explanations. Spiritual concepts are foolishness to them.

1 Cor 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

And you know this. We can see this everywhere in the world today. Many unsaved people seek to explain everything through so-called science and purely natural explanations. They scoff and ridicule spiritual explanations. Our schools and universities are full of this athiestic, humanistic philosophy. And you know that very well, it is obvious.

But not all unsaved are "natural men". Many unsaved men are very religious and very spiritual, but they are in error. We are fighting a war today against Muslim extremists. These are very religious and spiritual people, in many ways they put Christians to shame in their devotion to their religion. But they are in error.

And this is what Paul is saying. The Greeks sought wisdom. The Greeks are to this day known for this. They were and are known for philosophy. They sought natural explanations for existence. And this philosophy is widespread in the world today, not just by the Greeks, but men everywhere.

Go through 1st and 2nd Corinthians and count how many times the words "wisdom" and "foolishness" are mentioned.

When Paul says "the natural man" in 1 Cor 2:14, he is speaking especially of the Greeks. Corinth was in ancient Greece.

Corinth (Greek Κορινθία) is an ancient city about 48 miles west of Athens on the narrow stretch of land that joins the Peloponnese to the mainland of Greece. Corinth was an important city in ancient Greece and it played a major role in the missionary work of the Apostle Paul. Today, Corinth is the second largest city in the Peloponnese with several sites of interest to pilgrims and tourists.

Do you not realize that Paul was speaking to Grecians at Corinth? These people were absolutely familiar with the philosophy and science of Greece.

But this also applies to men everywhere who ascribe to this athiestic and humanistic philosophy.

And Paul is saying the natural man will not receive the things of the Spirit of God because they are foolishness to him. Just as today when a Christian tries to tell of Creation in scripture they are ridiculed and scorned by higher education. You know this.

1 Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

And because they will not receive the word of God and believe the scriptures, therefore they can have no spiritual discernment. It is the Spirit of God himself who helps us know and understand the scriptures.

So, 1 Cor 2:14 is not speaking of all men. It is speaking of men who ascribe to natural explanations and dismiss the spiritual.

 

[OldRegular]

And Old Regular, I have rightly divided the word in both 1st and 2nd Corinthians, it is Calvinism that pulls 1 Cor 2:14 out of context.

You are wrong but be happy.

The Jews were a spiritual people as are all the decendents of Shem. One can easily observe how religious all peoples of the Middle East are.

There is a world of difference between being spiritual and being religious. The Mohammedans are religious but they are certainly not spiritual. The Buddhists are religious but they are not spiritual. The Jews at that time were religious but they were not spiritual because they were looking for an earthly Messiah to throw off the yoke of Rome and establish an earthly kingdom. Following are some of the expression Jesus Christ used to describe these "spiritual people" as you call them:

Matthew 23:13. But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
Matthew 23:14. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows’ houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
Matthew 23:15. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
Matthew 23:23. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Matthew 23:25. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
Matthew 23:27. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men’s bones, and of all uncleanness.
Matthew 23:29. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
Luke 11:44. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are as graves which appear not, and the men that walk over them are not aware of them.

Jesus Christ says elsewhere [one of my favorites]:

Luke 18:10-14
10. Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

You see the Pharisee was making himself the author of his own salvation! Jesus Christ did not buy that because he said the publican: went down to his house justified.

Following is what Paul had to say about your "spiritual Jews":

Acts 25-29, KJV
25. And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
26. Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
27. For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
28. Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
29. And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves.

No, to the Jews the gospel is a stumblingblock. They believed a person was saved by keeping the law. They are clearly distinguished from the Greeks in 1 Cor 1:23. They are spiritual people.

The Greeks were included among the Gentiles!:laugh:

The Jews were and continue to be a very religious and spiritual people.

That is utter nonsense? Most Jews today are agnostic at best. Only 3-4% of the Jews in Israel are considered Orthodox.

The Greeks on the other hand worship man's wisdom and seek to explain everything through natural explanations. Spiritual concepts are foolishness to them.

Greeks are Gentiles. Surely you are not describing yourself!

When Paul says "the natural man" in 1 Cor 2:14, he is speaking especially of the Greeks. Corinth was in ancient Greece.

When Paul says the natural man he is speaking of the unsaved man; the same man he called dead in sin in Ephesians 2. You are simply taking the passage out of context!

 

[Winman]

Old Regular,

I agree in part with what you said. You are correct that a man can be religious but not be spiritual. And I knew that.

But you still must see that Paul is distinguishing between the Jews and Greeks in these chapters.

1 Cor 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

Perhaps I should not have said the Jews are spiritual, perhaps I should have said religious. But what I am saying is that the Jews believe in the supernatural. They believed in God, they believe in miracles. They asked Jesus for signs.

Matt 12:38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.

Why did Nicodemus believe Jesus was from God? Because of the miracles he performed.

John 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

So, perhaps it would have been more correct if I said the Jews were religious. They believe in God, they believe in the spiritual.

The Greeks (not all) on the other hand try to understand everything through natural explanations. They originated humanistic philosophy. The believe spiritual matters to be foolish superstition. Now, this is not all Greeks, many Greeks indeed believed in false Gods and were religious. But Paul is speaking of those Greeks who sought to find all answers through human reason.

1 Cor 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

As in verse 22, Paul makes a clear distinction between the Jews and Greeks. He does not say the gospel is foolishness to the Jews, he says it is a stumblingblock.

But to the Greeks he says it is foolishness. So there is a clear distinction made between the Jews and Greeks here. If you overlook this clear distinction Paul makes, you will not understand the passage.

And this clearly explains why in 1 Cor 2:15 the natural man will not receive the things of the Spirit of God, it is foolishness to them.

1 Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

What is the first thing this verse says about the natural man? It says he "receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God." He refuses to accept the spritual, he rejects it.

And why does he reject the spiritual? Because it is foolishness to him. This word foolish and foolishness has been mentioned numerous times in both chapters 1 and 2, you cannot pull this verse out of the context of the passage.

And of course, if a man will not receive and accept the word of God he cannot receive the Holy Spirit, and therefore cannot understand the scriptures.

Go back through chapters 1 and 2 and count how many times Paul mentions foolishness. All of this scripture must be kept within context.

 

[OldRegular]

Winman

It is you who are saying that saving faith is a natural attribute of unregenerate mankind; not me. I claim that it is the gift of God. I posted on another thread the following Scripture: Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.[Hebrews 12:2]

If Jesus Christ is the author of our faith then saving faith is the gift of God.

 

[psalms109:31]

Faith gift

Romans 10:17
Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.

We didn't wake up one day and have saving faith. It is a gift from God through His word.

This is what Jesus say's about His word.

John 14:24
He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

John 6:63
The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are Spirit and they are life.




The words of Jesus gives us two roads to believe in Jesus and be saved or not and be already condemned.

We either are going to be saved or condemned by the road we are on that the Father placed before us.

We can either lean on our own understanding and be on the wide road or trust the Lord and He will direct our path.

 

[Winman]

Romans 10:17
Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.

We didn't wake up one day and have saving faith. It is a gift from God through His word.

This is what Jesus say's about His word.

John 14:24
He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

John 6:63
The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are Spirit and they are life.




The words of Jesus gives us two roads to believe in Jesus and be saved or not and be already condemned.

We either are going to be saved or condemned by the road we are on that the Father placed before us.

We can either lean on our own understanding and be on the wide road or trust the Lord and He will direct our path.

Now, I partly agree with you and Old Regular here. You are absolutely correct, without the word of God we would not know of Jesus and would have no object of our faith. And the scriptures themselves do inspire faith in a person toward Christ. But the faith itself belongs to the individual.

And this is what Paul says in Romans 10:

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Does Paul mention being regenerated by the Spirit to believe here? No.

Paul asks how a man can possibly believe in Christ unless he has first "heard" of Christ. Faith comes through hearing the word, it is never said we are regenerated to believe.

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

You can go on and on about your doctrine that a person is regenerated to believe, it is not shown in scripture and no Calvinist has ever been able to show it in scripture, because it is not there.

But Jesus many times warned people to take heed what they hear or listen to.

Mark 4:24 And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given.

First of all, it makes no sense to warn someone what they should hear unless that person has the ability and control of what they hear. If Calvinism is true, this command is absurd because the unelect cannot possibly hear and believe the word of God.

And notice that Jesus tells those that will hear, that more will be given them in proportion to how well they take heed to his words.

So scripture clearly shows man has the ability to hear God's word, and is accountable for exercising this ability.

 

[psalms109:31]

I don't follow religion, but Christ and His word

It is Jesus word that has the regenerating power, because it is Spirit and they are life.

Without His word we have no Spirit or life in us. If we reject His word we have no life or Spirit.

It is Jesus in us that saves us. Eat of His flesh, drink of His blood

 

[OldRegular]

John 6:63
The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are Spirit and they are life.

That is correct. The Holy Spirit gives life. That is clearly taught in Ephesians 2:1-8. Yet there are many on this Forum who claim that the inherent faith of the unregenerate man, which must be of the flesh, gives life!

 

[DHK]

It is Jesus word that has the regenerating power, because it is Spirit and they are life.

Without His word we have no Spirit or life in us. If we reject His word we have no life or Spirit.

It is Jesus in us that saves us. Eat of His flesh, drink of His blood

Good post, and with that we will close this thread after having reached its 30 page limit.
Please feel free to start another if you so desire.