? for former Catholics

I said:
>>I would have responded to this inquiry but I see it has turned into the Grand Inquisition.>>

GraceSaves responded >>
Should I go find Baptist threads in this same vein and say about them what you say about this, Hank?>>

You are correct GS we are all guilty and its too bad.
So, I'll give my answer to the inquiry.

RE: The Real Presence.
As a child I accepted it, but I also accepted the "fact" that Santa, the Easter bunny and the tooth fairy were "real". That is not a sarcastic statement but a statement of fact. I trusted my elders. In later years, I wandered from the Church into agnosticism. Was saved while in the military reading the Bible.
I went back to the RCC and after 2 years of Bible study and dialogue with priests, I left because I could not reconcile this dogma (and many others) with the Scripture. Neither was I able to find moral justification for the evil deeds of the RCC hierarchy which were perpetrated upon the world (Crusades, Inquisition, Waldenses massacres, Huegenot slaughter, Albigenses persecutions, etc).

Some urged me to stay and help reform the Church from within. I could not.
To those who do choose this path, I salute you and Godspeed.

HankD

 

Hank,

I don't want to get too far off subject, so let's keep this brief.

When I read on Catholic doctrine (which I do daily), and when I read Scripture, both pertaining to that doctrine and otherwise (which I do daily), and I find them in perfect unison...what does that make me?

 

T2U asks…

>>Exactly what reforms were you being encouraged to? And was this encouragement from persons within or outside of the Church? >>

I was encouraged by both laity and clergy mostly from within. This was in the 1960's at which time Bible study was not encouraged by the RCC. The young priest who counseled me personally agreed that the Church did not put the proper emphasis upon the study of the Scriptures.

Others (laity) like myself had deeper issues (the Real Presence, papal infallibility) but felt it proper to condescend and influence from within.

GS asks…

>>When I read on Catholic doctrine (which I do daily), and when I read Scripture, both pertaining to that doctrine and otherwise (which I do daily), and I find them in perfect unison...what does that make me? >>

A seeking soul exercising one's liberty to decide concerning the approach to God.

HankD

[ April 13, 2002, 07:56 AM: Message edited by: HankD ]

 

No. Never did. Even though I went to 9 years of Cathechism classes. In my opinion, Christ is present everywhere. Making him present specifically in the Eucharist sounds more like a low-grade magic trick to me.

 

No. Never did. Even though I went to 9 years of Cathechism classes. In my opinion, Christ is present everywhere. Making him present specifically in the Eucharist sounds more like a low-grade magic trick to me.

Your lack of understanding changes nothing. Christ taught very clearly "This IS my Body. This IS my Blood" He taught it so clearly that the apostles taught the next generation that the bread becomes His Body and the wine becomes His Blood. They taught it in turn to the next generation. And so on and so on, right down to today.

The problem with Protestantism is that it is not built upon faith, but rather, empirical evidence bolstered by intellectualism. You cannot prove empirically that what you see is the Body and Blood of the Lord, so you reject it out of hand. That does not make you smart. It makes you faithless and disbelieving one of the cardinal tenents of the Faith. You perhaps could be excused if you were raised to disbelieve in such, but since you were raised Catholic, you have a serious problem. Those who leave the Faith do so because they lack faith. You were told the Truth and chose to reject it.

St. Irenaeus, who learned his doctrine from Polycarp, who was taught by the beloved apostle John, taught that we must not see with the eyes of the physical man, but with the eyes of faith. He taught that we must not think of just bread and wine, but by using the eyes of faith, we must acknowledge and believe that it is the very same Flesh which hung upon the Cross and the very same Blood which dripped from the Cross.

But more than that, you really and sadly do not understand what our Lord is doing in the Eucharist. He is meeting with us in an intimacy which is far greater and deeper than anything you can imagine. The closest thing to it is the physical unity of the marital bed in which two flesh become one. It is not by accident that our Lord describes us as the Bride of Christ. The joy of sexual union is a shadow of the great joy of union with our Lord. He uses shadows of the earth like this to show what Heaven is like for the blessed. We were made for unity with the Lord and in Heaven, we shall be with Him and in Him in a way we cannot even begin to imagine here on earth. But our Lord, in His immense love for His Bride, offers Himself to us now in the closest possible union. Study the references in which spiritual infidelity is described sexually as "harlotry". You think that is an accident? The Eucharist is really just an entering into that which already exists in the timeless eternity of God. Heaven comes down to earth when the words of consecration are spoken and every parish becomes united with Heaven in the singing of psalmody and praise of God, in declaring "HOLY, HOLY, HOLY is the Lord of hosts. Hossana in the highest", and in experiencing this union which is part and parcel of what it is to be in Heaven right now.

If you could see, if the blinders were taken from your eyes and you were to see what Christ does in the Eucharist, you would not only weep for joy, but you would RUN back to the Church in repentance in your desire to have this intimate relationship with the One Who loves you so dearly. If we could see the love extant there at the altar when Christ says "Come unto Me, all ye who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest", we would approach the altar with tears of joy and go away with hearts almost bursting with love.

I sorrow that I do not feel this more deeply than I see it in my soul. God has revealed these things to me, even when I was still waiting to get into the Church. It became so strong that I could hardly wait to get to Easter last year!! Every week was an agony until I could recieve Him in this most intimate fashion and become one with Him in this precursor of all eternity. And now at ever Liturgy I try with all my heart to continually practice and have those eyes of faith that I may rejoice at the bounteous table of the Lord.

Oh, poor, poor one. What HAVE you done, to walk away from the One Who loves you so much!!!

Brother Ed

 

Wow. You really got bent out of shape over my little opinion here. The question was asked, I felt like answering. You are looking at this with your Catholic eyes only and you are the one with the blinders on. To judge my faith in Christ and the depth of my belief off of my little answer is assuming an AWEFUL lot, don't you think. I'm happy for you that you've found such intimacy in your Catholic faith. But it is not the only one in the world and I don't believe that my faith in Jesus Christ can be condensed into one specific religion. You've got your religion, others have theirs, "Truth" can be found in them all. I don't ever see myself running back to any religon with repentantce as I don't feel the need. But I do go to my Father with repentance every day and we speak about our relationship and my life and others.He loves me, this I know, he guides me and humbles me. That, in my opinion is more intimate than any wafer at a church. I don't need the symbolism to make me feel in touch with Him. I like to keep it simple and personal for me and when I started doing that, is when I felt closer to Him than I ever had in my life.
You've got your way of getting in touch with Jesus, I've got mine, the next person has got theirs. Let's not try to pass judgement and guilt on one another on what feels right for us as individuals.

 

wishtolearn,

I get condemned on here all the time, and accused of much by certain people. All I ask is that you don't emphasize that this is only done on one side of the debate, but that both parties are guilty.

 

What parties are you referring to? Who is guilty of what? Did I miss something here? I wasn't specifying anyone particular in my post, just responding to CatholicConverts overblown assumption of my faith in Christ.

 

wishtolearn,

I wasn't trying to pick a fight!

You said, "To judge my faith in Christ and the depth of my belief off of my little answer is assuming an AWEFUL lot, don't you think."

Read what DHK and Pastor Larry have said to me in regards to my faith, and the judging they have done to me. Yes, they are awfully presumptuous.

If CatholicConvert was presumptuous, then he was. I'm simply stating that I didn't want this to be seen as something the Catholics are doing to the non-Catholics, but that it's done on both sides of the table.

 

I see where you are coming from now and I agree with you. I don't go out of my way to start fights with anyone, I don't claim to know scripture well at all so I stay out of that. But when I am attacked personally or feel someone has mentioned something just absolutely ignorant, I'll speak up on the matter. Catholics vs Baptists and other denoms. There is no groups that is better than one another, or more righteous than another. We are all passionate about what we feel for our Father that sometimes we like to play His favorite.

 

You are looking at this with your Catholic eyes only and you are the one with the blinders on.

THAT is rich. Perhaps you failed to notice my "nom de plume" Catholic Convert. I was Protestant for 25 years my man, and a virulently anti-Catholic Protestant to boot. Believe me, I do not have blinders on, for to convert to the Church of our Lord from such deep hatred of Her and prejudicial position requires taking off any blinders and setting aside all prejudices to study the facts objectively.

To judge my faith in Christ and the depth of my belief off of my little answer is assuming an AWEFUL lot, don't you think.

Yes, I agree. I am not judging your faith in Christ now. I was saying that the reason you left the Church our Lord established upon St. Peter is because you didn't have faith at that time. This is the quite common testimony of reverts who have a so-called "born again" experience outside the Church and then think that no one else in the Church can have the same while in the Church. You were converted, obviously, from a dead faith to a living faith. It is a shame that it didn't happen inside the Church. Perhaps the living faith you have now will bring you, in due time, back to the Church. And I make no assumptions on your eternal state. I am quite busy enough with trying to do what St. Paul did by way of example in "working out my faith in fear and trembling" (An odd thing to do indeed if one is "once saved -- always saved")

But it is not the only one in the world and I don't believe that my faith in Jesus Christ can be condensed into one specific religion. You've got your religion, others have theirs, "Truth" can be found in them all.

Uhhhhhn Unnnnn. WRONGO!!! with a captial "W"!!!

There are about 25 or 30 different ideas on the Lord's Supper. There is divergency on what it means, how it is to be done, what the elements are, etc.

Likewise, there are about 25 or 30 different ideas on baptism and what it is and does.

25 or 30 different ideas on ecclesiastical hierarchy and faith.

25 or 30 different ideas on forgiveness for our sins and how we get it.

25 or 30 different ideas on eternal life and how we obtain it.

All these ideas are supposedly take from the Bible with the leadership of the Holy Spirit. Each rite swears that they have been led of the Spirit of God in to perfect truth.

But there cannot be 25 different truths about one God and His one Church and how that Church is administered, can there? The Early Fathers never brooked such nonsense as "truth can be found in them all". They set forth the mind of God in councils regarding doctrine and anyone outside of those councicular decisions was excommunicated and labeled a heretic. Where do you get off saying that all have truth when all are different?

I don't ever see myself running back to any religon with repentance as I don't feel the need.

You may not like to hear this, but you do not see the need because you have been blinded by some fast talking evangelist in a polyester suit. Scripture warns us about being blinded by people who come to us as "angels of light" doesn't it? Christ established ONE Church on earth -- holy, catholic, and apostolic. If your little assembly is not in communion with and under submission to the authority which Jesus set in St. Peter, you are not a member of that Church which Christ established.

But I do go to my Father with repentance every day and we speak about our relationship and my life and others.

I am sure you do, and this is a good thing, for He is a gracious God and He loves mankind dearly.

He loves me, this I know, he guides me and humbles me. That, in my opinion is more intimate than any wafer at a church.

If you understood what He has done to have intimate union with you through the Eucharist, you would stop with the Chick tract insults of the Blessed Sacrament. Your idea is semi-gnosticism parading around in evangelical clothing. The Gnostics said that the physical world is evil and that true religion is spiritual in nature. Thus, they also denied the Incarnation, since God would not incarnate Himself into something as evil as the flesh.

Denial of the Eucharist is also a denial of the Incarnation. God has entered into time, space, and physicality by the Incarnation and now He can be intimately with us again in a physical reality using physical means.

I don't need the symbolism to make me feel in touch with Him.

My poor deluded one, it is NOT symbolism. It is a reality more real than you can imagine. He is really there on the altar, the One Who is both Host and Sacrifice.

Do you know what the Eucharist is? It is the Lord God coming down into the Garden to walk with Adam. Before the Fall, God did not disdain to be with Adam in physical intimacy. The Cross has restored this relationship.

I like to keep it simple and personal for me and when I started doing that, is when I felt closer to Him than I ever had in my life.

We Orthodox have a word which describes this -- prelest. Remember that there are forces out there who desire your destruction. They will use any means, including our feelings, to get us to stray from The Way. That is why we should have spiritual directors to go to who are older and wiser men who are noted for their intense holiness and walk with the Lord. That is why Christ gave to mankind a Church with the authority to teach infallibly in His name. We cannot guide ourselves and it is a lie for anyone to think that he can be his own spiritual guide. Just look at the hundreds of different Protestant sects, cults, isms, and denominations and you can see that "private interpretation" is a gigantic failure and does not work.

You've got your way of getting in touch with Jesus, I've got mine, the next person has got theirs. Let's not try to pass judgement and guilt on one another on what feels right for us as individuals

Dear one, there is only ONE way of getting in touch with Jesus, and that has been laid out quite clearly by the Church which was given authority by Him to teach truth in His name. The Church alone is the proper teacher of moral and doctinal truth and I would trust Her teaching before I would trust even a vision of Heaven. I could easily be decieved by a vision, but Christ promised the protection of the Holy Spirit upon the Church and Her offices.

I do hope you will remain open to the leading of the Holy Spirit regarding the ancient and eternal truth which the Lord gave to the apostles and which has been handed down by the Church who was made the guardian of this truth.

With apology for any offense, I remain

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed

 

Wow!! Put down the coffee and relax a second. You know nothing about me but assume A LOT! I havn't been "Evangelized", I don't consider myself "born-again","once saved, always saved". You know nothing about me from the little bit I have added to this discussion. There is not "ONE" way of getting in touch with Jesus and I feel sorry for the fact that you think that way. You're missing out on a lot. I'm glad that you are so in love with your Catholic Church. I think they're pretty and they have nice weddings and funerals. Unfortunatley, it's fanatics like yourself that have driven me away from the Church. I prefer the K.I.S.S. method of religion: Keep it Simple Stupid. You keep reading all you can about the Church and her doctrines until you pass out. I'll go on being happy and satisfied with my relationship with my Father.

 

Catholic Convert, I think you are suffering from delusions of grandeur here. You talk about individuals being misled by their feelings, not being able to spiritually guide themselves. If that's the way you feel about yourself, more power to you. But I am very comfortable with my spirituality and do not at this time require a religion to define it. What works for you is not what is going to work for the rest of man/woman kind. You need to get off of your soapbox for a second and respect others ability to think.

 

Delusions of grandeur?

Well, it's possible, given that I am a sinner and like all sinners have this thing called "the old man".

But as for the "ability to think for one's self", that is a very, very Western concept. In the East, we do not entertain such ideas. The Church is the vehicle by which God speaks to us and therefore, we listen to what God says through her and through our spiritual directors, who are called "starets" in Russian.

Remember that St. Paul spent a considerable amount of time warning people that there were malevolent spirits about who would seek to deceive people. They would do this through the avenue of our thinking. Temptation begins in the mind.

You and I indeed have the ability to think and reason. We both also have the ability to be deceived. That is why I believe, given the promises of infallibility to the Church in Matthew 16: 18-19, it is safer and saner for me to put aside my pride and listen to the Church.

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed

 

I believe because I do. I have all of my life regardless of my religious upbringing. I can't remember a time when I questioned it.

 

Sure we can think for ourselves. We can also be deceived. But I trust my intellect and common sense more than I trust the Church, especially in light of the scandal surrounding it. Temptation begins in the mind? Definately. If man wasn't tempted by the desire to learn we wouldn't be where we are as a civilization today. You personally seem to require the structure of the Church. I don't. We can agree to disagree.

 

But I trust my intellect and common sense

This is the essence of Western autonomy. "I" can do it by myself. That is not what the Church is. We are not Lone Rangers for Jesus. We are a family and as a family depend upon each other. Those of us who are younger in the faith should look to those who have been in it for numerous years and are elders in the faith for spritual guidance and direction.

Personally, if my spiritual director, who is a holy and godly man of more than 50 years in the faith, were to tell me that it would be good for me to stand on my head and recite the Lord's Prayer every morning -- I WOULD LISTEN TO HIM!!!

As for the left handed insult against the Church, you need to separate the teachings of the Church, which are infallible in the areas of morals and doctrine, from the personal failures of people in the Church, which has NOTHING to do with the established standards of morality and doctrine in the Church.

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed

 

So some priests are teaching the wrong thing...don't let this get back to the infallible pope...might get upset that his words are not being taught properly. The book of Eucharist is that part of the bible or is that part of what the popes through history have printed up on their own?

So you are cannibals? Think about it... would Jesus really wants us to eat his body? It is a symbol. Bread in the Jewish ways have always been used in there customs. Unleavened was to be no yeast. I challenge you to search the scriptures for all the uses of bread then you will see why Jesus uses the bread for commumion. Jesus said that He is the bread of life. Another symbol. When satan tempted Jesus in the wilderness to turn the stones to bread (for Jesus was hungry) what did Jesus say Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. Jesus is the bread of Life, he is the word the proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

[ April 17, 2002, 07:18 PM: Message edited by: Promise ]