For our Catholic friends....

Mozier --

Sorry, your point is completely wrong.

I am Eastern Orthodox in communion with Rome, aka Byzantine or Greek Catholic. There were no major changes of doctrine which the Eastern Church had to adopt to in order to come into communion with Rome. What we did have to do which the Orthodox who have schismated from the Body of Christ are unwilling to do, is to admit to the leadership and headship of the Bishop of Rome as the "servant of servants" and Chief Shepherd of the Church here on earth. Besides that one difference, there simply is no doctrinal argument between East and West.

This, of course, is not the case with the maelstrom of chaos called "Protestantism". There is disagreement on every doctrine and teaching, including those which involve salvation.

The schism of 1054 was not caused by horror over what the papacy had become in the way you suggest. It was caused by the same thing we see in the papacy today -- mismanagement of the Church, heavy handedness in eclessiastical matters, and a lack of communication between the parties of East and West. Nonetheless, if you and all other Protestants would look deeper into history than to use selective quotes which seem to promote an anti-catholic position, you would see that the office of the papacy was obeyed in disciplinary matters from a very early time. One must think this very odd if the Eastern Orthodox had a different form of church governance in mind. To submit to a leadership you really do not believe in is lunacy at best.

You also fail to mention the repeated attempts of Michael Cerelius and other Eastern primates to reunite the Church under one head. These lasted for about 300 years, a long time to try to mend a wound if you feel that this is not the way the Church should be run.

The greatest single problem with the papacy is that while the teachings of the papacy and the Ordinary Magisterium are infallible, the administration of the Church is not subject to being instupidable. In reading the history of the Church, one wonders sometimes what in the world some of the popes were thinking when they made certain administrative decrees.

That notwithstanding, rebellion STILL is NO WHERE AUTHORIZED IN THE BIBLE AS A RESPONSE TO BAD OR DUMB LEADERSHIP!!. It is better to wear the crown of obedience in martyrdom than to be a free rebel. Scripture does not speak well of rebellion anywhere in its pages.

Cordially in Christ through the Theotokos,

Brother Ed

PS Anti-catholics such as Jason Engwer are hardly objective in their research. Their goal is NOT the finding of truth as much as it is the defense of their rebellion against God's order through the Church He established. Thus, they can be expected to be highly selective in what they "find" and the "truth" they discover. Kinda like leaving the fox to guard the chickens and expecting good results!!

 

Kathryn,

My post stated that it was a translation from the Latin Vulgate.

God Bless,
Kelly

 

]


Thank you for comming to the same conclusion from a different angle and perspective CC!

 

Kelly, you say:

Your original post:

Would you show me where your post stated their bible was a translation of the Latin Vulgate? Do you know when the Latin Vulgate was made and who made it?

God Bless

 

Kathryn,

"It was a translation of the true text into the rather rude Low Latin of the second century."

Is what I said. It appears that I misunderstood you. The Latin Vulgate is obviously a 'version' of the Bible.

As it appears, either your source is lying, or mine is.

Down the left is the History tracing the KJV. On the right is the history of the Catholic controlled versions.

Apostles (Original) VS. Apostates (Corrupted Originals)
Received Text (Greek) VS. Sinaiticus and Vaticanus Bible (Greek)
Waldensian Bible (Italic) VS. Vulgate (Latin). Church of Rome's Bible
Erasmus (Received Text Restored) VS. Vaticanus (Greek)
Luther's Bible, Dutch, French, Italian, etc., (from Received Text) VS. French, Spanish, and Italian (from Vulgate)
Tyndale (English) 1535 (from Received Text) VS. Rheims (English) from Vulgate (Jesuit Bible of 1582)
King James, 1611 (from Received Text) VS. Oxford Movement. Westcott & Hort (B and Aleph). American Revised 1901

I don't see a connection. The Waldnses Bible wasn't from the Latin Vulgate.

God Bless,
Kelly

 

Kelly, you say:

Encyclopedia Brittanica, the Baptist site posted below, and the Waldensians themselves of today have no reason to lie about this.

http://www.kjvonly.org/doug/waldensian.htm

This is not a Catholic source, but Baptist. It shows that the Latin Vulgate is the bible the Waldensians used for their translation. This agrees with the history of the Waldensians from Encyclopedia Brittanica and the Waldensians of today's history. The Waldensians are from the 12 Century and were started by Peter Waldo a Catholic.


God Bless

 

Being rebellious is a good thing, when God is telling you to do it. Jesus was pretty rebellious when he overturned the money changers tables wasnt he?

You are being silly. Rebellion is different from defiance. Learn the difference. Rebellion is refusal to obey a legitimate authority in its rightful rule over your life. Defiance is refusing to obey the orders of a wicked leadership when they ask you to disobey legitimate rules or authority.

Jesus was doing neither. He was cleaning the pus from his house. That is neither defiance nor rebellion.

As when He told the leaders of that day they were were "white washed tombs", were "filled with dead mens bones" and where making people "twice as much a son of hell as themselves".

That is not rebellion. That is preaching. It is calling a spade a spade and warning men, hopefully unto repentance and eternal life.


The early church were pretty rebellious when they were told to no longer preach in Jesus name, and they prayed "God, give is strenghth, that we may speak your name more boldly!"

Defiance, pure and simple. They had orders from a higher authority than the ones who were trying to quiet them. Rebellion would have been to refuse to preach the Gospel after Jesus' admonition in Matthew 28.

That sounds pretty rebellious to me.

Well, it ain't. You need to edjecate yerself as to what is what.

They told those over them they would obey God, not men.

See? NOT rebellious, because they are obeying legitimate authority.

Paul was pretty rebellious when he told the Jews "Enough! You have heard and heard and heard, but you will not heed it. I go now to the Gentiles, and they will heed it!

I don't believe anyone could be as confused as you are. That is not rebellion either.

The scriptures tell us "Stand fast in the liberty with which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled in the yoke of bondage!"

Sounds pretty rebellious to me.

No wonder Protestantism is in a state of confusion. WHERE in that statement do you find anything which even hints at disobeying God's authority? You have some strange ideas.

God was, without a doubt, in the reformation in the 1600's. If God is in it, its a good thing!

Rebellion is of the devil, period. Doesn't matter how much you tack the name of Jesus to it, it is still rebellion. The proof of the fact that the devil is behind it is twofold: heretical doctrines and mass confusion. God is not the author of confusion, therefore, with assurance one may say that the doctrines of the reformation and their children are not of God.

All you have to do is look at the result. In the worlds of the CC and EOC, we see a proliferation of a mind numbing amount of heresy, idolatry, false teaching, legalistic bondage, and unbiblical hiearchial control.

What Bible do you read anyway? The whole of the Scriptures testifies to the establishment of a hierarchy of power and authority, not only among men, but even among the angels. There is no heresy in any teaching of the Catholic faith. The fact that you do not understand it or that you have been taught that it is wrong doesn't change the fact that it is truth.

In the evangelical and conservative protestant world, we see biblical Christianity being practiced in the simplicity and truth that God desires.

Nope. What you see in Protestantism is a gutted and barren religion which has been called "Christianity" because it uses the name of Jesus. So what. So do the Mormons, the Jehovah's Witnesses, and a host of other cults. Big deal.

Furthermore, Protestants can't even agree among themselves regarding what the Bible teaches, and yet I am supposed to believe that in this mass of doctrinal chaos, truth resides? Give me a break. As I said, with the EO and the CC, there is complete unity regarding the Sacraments and the Faith. The only things we have to work out are the "filoque" clause and the administrative role of the pope and we will once again be united.

And with absolutly no man made "Truth Police" keeping everyone in line, why do we see unity on the foundational doctrines,




Oh Laaaaaaaaaaawdy!!!! *GASP* Don't do that to me with a mouthful of food. I almost choked laughing. UNITY IN DOCTRINE??

WHAT planet are you referring to? Not here on earth in the realm of Protestantism. Are you sure you took yer meds this morning? You seem a tad delusional.

They say "The proof is in the pudding".

Yup. And de puddin' of Protestantism is getting worse and worse. Startin' to smell actually.

God said it like this...

"By their fruits you will know them".

And we do.

Indeed. So do we. We see the chaos, the arguments, the sodomites in the pulpits, the leaving of doctrines, the schisms, the wimmen preachers, the loose grasp on truth.

Don't look good. Not at all.

On the other hand, regardless of the individual failures of people within the Church, the teachings and doctrines of the Church are still single, unified, and one. Get a Catholic Catechism and see for yourself.

On the contrary, it is those that are under the yoke of an oppresor who are not trustworthy.

OPPRESSOR?? WHERE?

*looking looking looking*

Oh, you mean that evil ole Catholic Church, right? Sorry. Wrong again. I'm not oppressed. Maybe you have the wrong "church". It was the Fundamentalists who almost wrecked my marriage with their man made teachings (like no drinking, no movies, no smoking,) and insistence that the only way they could be sure that I really REALLY loved Jesus was to be "in the church every time the doors opened". My wife got tired of it. So did the kids. But hey, I was BRAINWASHED. I didn't know any better, so I went right along.

You know, it's kinda devilish and devious to tell people that certain things are sins when they really are not. You know, the usual fundamentalist garbage: "long" hair on men, pants on wimmen, having a nice glass of wine with dinner, not winning a 100 people a week to Jesus, etc. etc. etc. Sometimes I think the only way Fundamentalist assemblies even function is by beating their people with guilt, guilt, guilt so that they will get out of the pew and do something.

I've seen a lot of enslaved Fundamentalists (and I've been one too!!) and I thank the Lord that the Church is not the prison that Fundamentalism was.

The Church that God established is the Body of Christ, and that is all of the born again people on earth. Nothing more, nothing less.

Wrong again. God established His "eklessia" on the earth. It is spoken of in Psalms 22:22 and St. Paul quotes that Psalm in Hebrews and refers to the Church, the "gathering". If you read Matthew 21: 33 - 46, you will see that the vineyard, which is the kingdom of God, is administered by the Jews. It is earthly, visible, and organized hierarchially. And Jesus tells the Jews it is being taken from them and given to the Church. What He does not indicate in that parable is any structural change in the vineyard. It continues on earth. It is visible and has Sacraments which replace the Ordinances given to the Jews. And instead of celebrating prophetic feast days, we celebrate the Messiah who came and finished the work of redemption.

Your "invisible church" idea simply doesn't fly. Where is its leadership? Where is its structure? How do the pagans "hear and see" it if it is invisible? How does it administer discipline? No, Mike, an invisible church cannot do any of those things and it cannot be a "light upon a hill" and the "salt of the earth."

And when we see man made counterfeits of Gods church, we are obligated to speak out.

Here is God's Church:

CHURCH

Come and join. Or as the priest says when the Eucharist is given to our babies: "TASTE, and see that the Lord is good."

May God be gracious to you and open your eyes to the truth.

Brother Ed

 

Mozier,

You still out there (well we know that if you read Jack Chick, he's out there. )? Would you kindly defend your claim (you accepted ownership when you claimed it) that the Eastern Churches didn't even know the Catholic Church when they split, even though there were/are only a few differences that divide us. By the way the Patriarch of Greece I believe it was recently expressed optimism at unity.

 

Thess "complains" that Jason is QUOTING Catholic sources BUT NOT to Thess' satisfication.

But notice that in the argument above - Thess quotes "nothing" to make his case.

Jason's quote - stand out in stark contrast to the approach Thess embraces.

In Christ,

Bob

 

This is a total denial of the HISTORY of the split of East and West.

NOT only did the East NOT conform to the Papacy of the West - there were OTHER practices that they ALSO held "in difference" that over the centuries they have slowly fallen into many of the same errors as the RCC - but this was not the case in the first few centuries after the split.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Jason's research is outstanding.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Thess "complains" that Jason is QUOTING Catholic sources BUT NOT to Thess' satisfication.

But notice that in the argument above - Thess quotes "nothing" to make his case.

Jason's quote - stand out in stark contrast to the approach Thess embraces.

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]No Bob,

In fact what I saw in Jason's diatribes is a bunch of well let's pick this quote over here from Augustine to show that he believes in symbolic Eucharist while ignoring the many others where he clearly shows otherwise. That is all. If I get time I will take the time to pick a couple apart.

Blessings though

 

Brother Ed,

I don't know who you were talking to, because you didn't include a 'posted by' but you should educate yourself before you rebuke someone so harshly.

Rebellion, and defiance are synonymous.

Rebellion: Open, armed, and organized resistance to a constituted government.
An act or a show of defiance toward an authority or established convention.

Defiance: The act or an example of defying; bold resistance to an opposing force or authority.
Intentionally contemptuous behavior or attitude; readiness to contend or resist.

defiance
Function: noun
Definition: disobedience
Synonyms: affront, audacity, back talk, big talk, boldness, bravado, brazenness, call, cartel, challenge, command, confrontation, contempt, contrariness, contumacy, dare, defy, disregard, effrontery, enjoinder, factiousness, gas, guts, hot air, impudence, impugnment, insolence, insubordination, insurgence, insurgency, intractableness, lip, macho, muster, opposition, order, perversity, provocation, rebellion, rebelliousness, recalcitrance, revolt, sass, spite, stump, summons, temerity, the gauntlet

rebellion
Function: noun
Definition: disobedience
Synonyms: apostasy, defiance, disobedience, dissent, heresy, insubordination, insurgence, insurgency, insurrection, nonconformity, revolt, revolution, rising, schism, uprising

God Bless,
Kelly

 

Jason Engwer, “Research Analyst” says:

Jason Engwer has little understanding of Catholic belief. Pope Clement of Rome explains the Catholic position very well when read in context:


CHAPTER 32 -- WE ARE JUSTIFIED NOT BY OUR OWN WORKS, BUT BY FAITH.

Whosoever will candidly consider each particular, will recognise the greatness of the gifts which were given by him. For from him have sprung the priests and all the Levites who minister at the altar of God. From him also [was descended] our Lord Jesus Christ according to the flesh. From him [arose] kings, princes, and rulers of the race of Judah. Nor are his other tribes in small glory, inasmuch as God had promised, "Your seed shall be as the stars of heaven." All these, therefore, were highly honoured, and made great, not for their own sake, or for their own works, or for the righteousness which they wrought, but through the operation of His will. And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

CHAPTER 33 -- BUT LET US NOT OWE UP THE PRACTICE OF GOOD WORKS AND LOVE. GOD HIMSELF IS AN EXAMPLE TO US OF GOOD WORKS.

What shall we do, then, brethren? Shall we become slothful in well-doing, and cease from the practice of love? God forbid that any such course should be followed by us! But rather let us hasten with all energy and readiness of mind to perform every good work. For the Creator and Lord of all Himself rejoices in His works. For by His infinitely great power He established the heavens, and by His incomprehensible wisdom He adorned them. He also divided the earth from the water which surrounds it, and fixed it upon the immoveable foundation of His own will. The animals also which are upon it He commanded by His own word into existence. So likewise, when He had formed the sea, and the living creatures which are in it, He enclosed them [within their proper bounds] by His own power. Above all, with His holy and undefiled hands He formed man, the most excellent [of His creatures], and truly great through the understanding given him -- the express likeness of His own image. For thus says God: "Let us make man in Our image, and after Our likeness. So God made man; male and female He created them." Having thus finished all these things, He approved them, and blessed them, and said, "Increase and multiply." We see, then, how all righteous men have been adorned with good works, and how the Lord Himself, adorning Himself with His works, rejoiced. Having therefore such an example, let us without delay accede to His will, and let us work the work of righteousness with our whole strength.
CHAPTER 34 -- GREAT IS THE REWARD OF GOOD WORKS WITH GOD. JOINED TOGETHER IN HARMONY, LET US IMPLORE THAT REWARD FROM HIM.

The good servant receives the bread of his labour with confidence; the lazy and slothful cannot look his employer in the face. It is requisite, therefore, that we be prompt in the practice of well-doing; for of Him are all things. And thus He forewarns us: "Behold, the Lord [cometh], and His reward is before His face, to render to every man according to his work." He exhorts us, therefore, with our whole heart to attend to this, that we be not lazy or slothful in any good work. Let our boasting and our confidence be in Him. Let us submit ourselves to His will. Let us consider the whole multitude of His angels, how they stand ever ready to minister to His will. For the Scripture says, "Ten thousand times ten thousand stood around Him, and thousands of thousands ministered to Him, and cried, Holy, holy, holy, the Lord of Sabaoth; the whole creation is full of His glory." And let us therefore, conscientiously gathering together in harmony, cry to Him earnestly, as with one mouth, that we may be made partakers of His great and glorious promises. For [the Scripture] says, "Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, neither has it entered into the heart of man, the things which He has prepared for those who wait for Him."

CHAPTER 35 -- IMMENSE IS THIS REWARD. HOW SHALL WE OBTAIN IT?

How blessed and wonderful, beloved, are the gifts of God! Life in immortality, splendour in righteousness, truth in perfect confidence, faith in assurance, self-control in holiness! And all these fall under the cognizance of our understandings [now]; what then shall those things be which are prepared for such as wait for Him? The Creator and Father of all worlds, the Most Holy, alone knows their amount and their beauty. Let us therefore earnestly strive to be found in the number of those who wait for Him, in order that we may share in His promised gifts. But how, beloved, shall this be done? If our understanding be fixed by faith rewards God; if we earnestly seek the things which are pleasing and acceptable to Him; if we do the things which are in harmony with His blameless will; and if we follow the way of truth, casting away from us all unrighteousness and iniquity, along with all covetousness, strife, evil practices, deceit, whispering, and evil-speaking, all hatred of God, pride and haughtiness, vainglory and ambition. For they that do such things are hateful to God; and not only they that do them, but also those who take pleasure in those who do them. For the Scripture says, "But to the sinner God said, Why do you declare my statutes, and take my covenant into your mouth, seeing you hate instruction, and cast my words behind you? When you saw a thief, you consented with him, and made your portion with adulterers. Your mouth has abounded with wickedness, and your tongue contrived deceit. You sit, and speak against your brother; you slander your own mother's son. These things you have done, and I kept silence; you thought, wicked one, that I should be like you. But I will reprove you, and set yourself before you. Consider now these things, you who forget God, lest He tear you in pieces, like a lion, and there be none to deliver. The sacrifice of praise will glorify Me, and a way is there by which I will show him the salvation of God."

-----------------------------------------
I am glad Jason Engwer likes the Bishop of Rome's understanding of salvation. But, nowhere here is St. Clement teaching “Faith Alone”. This is Salvation by Grace …..faith working through love. This is also what the present day Catechism teaches and what the bible also teaches.

Philippians 2:12-13
So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God;

Galatians 5:6
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love .

--------------------------------------
CLEMENT OF ROME, Second Epistle
CHAPTER 1

7. We cannot, therefore, be the friends of both; but we must resolve by forsaking the one, to enjoy the other. And we think it is better to hate the present things, as little, short- lived, and corruptible, and to love those which are to come, which are truly good and incorruptible.
8. For, if we do the will of Christ, we shall find rest: but if not, nothing shall deliver us from eternal punishment if we shall disobey his commands. For even thus says the Scripture in the prophet Ezekiel, If Noah, Job, and Daniel should rise up, they shall not deliver their children in captivity. [Ezekiel 14:14, 20]
9. Wherefore, if such righteous men are not able by their righteousness to deliver their children; how can we hope to enter into the kingdom of God, except we keep our baptism holy and undefiled? Or who shall be our advocate, unless we shall be found to have done what is holy and just? 10. Let us therefore, my brethren, contend with all earnestness, knowing that our combat is at hand; and that many go long voyages to encounter for a corruptible reward.
11. And yet all are not crowned, but they only that labor much, and strive gloriously. Let us, therefore, so contend that we may all be crowned. Let us run in the straight road, the race that is incorruptible: and let us in great numbers pass into it, and strive that we may receive the crown. But and if we cannot all be crowned, let us come as near to it as we are able.
-----------------------------------
Catechism:
161. "Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our SALVATION is necessary for obtaining that SALVATION.[Cf. Mk 16:16 ; Jn 3:36 ; Jn 6:40 ; et al.] 'Since 'without FAITH it is impossible to please (God)' and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without FAITH no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life 'But he who endures to the end.'']"

1427. "Jesus calls to conversion. This call is an essential part of the proclamation of the kingdom: 'The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent, and believe in the gospel.'[Mk 1:15 .] In the Church's preaching this call is addressed first to those who do not yet know Christ and his Gospel. Also, Baptism is the principal place for the first and fundamental conversion. It is by FAITH in the Gospel and by Baptism[Cf. Acts 2:38 .] that one renounces evil and gains SALVATION, that is, the forgiveness of all sins and the gift of new life."
-----------------------------------------

In any case I am not impressed with this website and find the cleanup work tedious. The “research analyst” here is ripping quotes out of context and claiming the person did not believe what the Catholic Church teaches. St. Clement here is not teaching “Faith Alone”, but I am glad that Jason likes what this Bishop of Rome wrote, and yes, Clement was Catholic.

God Bless

P.S. Anyone knows what qualifies one as a “Research Analyst” for NTRMin (New Testament Research Ministries) website?

 

Jason Engwer, “Research Analyst” says:

What Polycarp says in context:

Greeting
1 Polycarp and the Elders with him to the Church of God sojourning in Philippi; mercy and peace from God Almighty and Jesus Christ our Saviour be multiplied to you.

CHAPTER 1 The hospitality of the Philippians -- Their faith

1 I rejoice greatly with you in our Lord Jesus Christ that you have followed the pattern of true love, and have helped on their way, as opportunity was given you, those who were bound in chains, which become the saints, and are the diadems of those who have been truly chosen by God and our Lord. 2 I rejoice also that your firmly rooted faith, which was famous in past years, still flourishes and bears fruit unto our Lord Jesus Christ, who endured for our sins, even to the suffering of death, "whom God raised up, having loosed the pangs of Hades, 3 in whom, though you did not see him, you believed in unspeakable and glorified joy," -- into which joy many desire to come, knowing that "by grace ye are saved, not by works" but by the will of God through Jesus Christ.

CHAPTER 2 Exhortation to virtue -- The hope of resurrection -- The Lord's Teaching

1 "Wherefore girding up your loins serve God in fear" and truth, putting aside empty vanity and vulgar error, "believing on him who raised up our Lord Jesus Christ from the dead and gave him glory," and a throne on his right hand, "to whom are subject all things in heaven and earth," whom all breath serves, who is coming as "the Judge of the living and of the dead," whose blood God will require from them who disobey him. 2 Now "he who raised him" from the dead "will also raise us up" if we do his will, and walk in his commandments and love the things which he loved, refraining from all unrighteousness, covetousness, love of money, evil speaking, false witness, "rendering not evil for evil, or railing for railing," or blow for blow, or curse for curse, 3 but remembering what the Lord taught when he said, "Judge not that ye be not judged, forgive and it shall be forgiven unto you, be merciful that ye may obtain mercy, with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again," and, "Blessed are the poor, and they who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the Kingdom of God."

CHAPTER 3 Polycarp's reason for writing: the invitation ofthe Philippians

1 These things, brethren, I write to you concerning righteousness, not at my own instance, but because you first invited me. 2 For neither am I, nor is any other like me, able to follow the wisdom of the blessed and glorious Paul, who when he was among you in the presence of the men of that time taught accurately and stedfastly the word of truth, and also when he was absent wrote letters to you, from the study of which you will be able to build yourselves up into the faith given you; 3 "which is the mother of us all" when faith follows, and love of God and Christ and neighbour goes before. For if one be in this company he has fulfilled the command of righteousness, for he who has love is far from all sin.

CHAPTER 4 Exhortations to virtue

1 "But the beginning of all evils is the love of money." Knowing therefore that "we brought nothing into the world and we can take nothing out of it," let us arm ourselves with the armour of righteousness, and let us first of all teach ourselves to walk in the commandment of the Lord; 2 next teach our wives to remain in the faith given to them, and in love and purity, tenderly loving their husbands in all truth, and loving all others equally in all chastity, and to educate their children in the fear of God. 3 Let us teach the widows to be discreet in the faith of the Lord, praying ceaselessly for all men, being far from all slander, evil speaking, false witness, love of money, and all evil, knowing that they are the altar of God, and that all offerings are tested, and that nothing escapes him of reasonings or thoughts, or of "the secret things of the heart."

CHAPTER 5 Christian obligations to a virtuous life

1 let us arm ourselves with the armour of righteousness, and let us first of all teach ourselves to walk in the commandment of the Lord; 2 next teach our wives to remain in the faith given to them, and in love and purity, tenderly loving their husbands in all truth, and loving all others equally in all chastity, and to educate their children in the fear of God. 3 Let us teach the widows to be discreet in the faith of the Lord, praying ceaselessly for all men, being far from all slander, evil speaking, false witness, love of money, and all evil, knowing that they are the altar of God, and that all offerings are tested, and that nothing escapes him of reasonings or thoughts, or of "the secret things of the heart." Likewise also let the younger men be blameless in all things; caring above all for purity, and curbing themselves from all evil; for it is good to be cut off from the lust of the things in the world, because "every lust warreth against the Spirit, and neither fornicators nor the effeminate nor sodomites shall inherit the Kingdom of God," nor they who do iniquitous things. Wherefore it is necessary to refrain from all these things, and to be subject to the presbyters and deacons as to God and Christ. The virgins must walk with a blameless and pure conscience.

CHAPTER 6 The duties of the presbyters -- Forgiveness -- The service of God

1 And let the presbyters also be compassionate, merciful to all, bringing back those that have wandered, caring for all the weak, neglecting neither widow nor orphan nor poor, but "ever providing for that which is good before God and man," refraining from all wrath, respect of persons, unjust judgment, being far from all love of money, not quickly believing evil of any, not hasty in judgment, knowing that "we all owe the debt of sin."1 2 If then we pray the Lord to forgive us, we also ought to forgive, for we stand before the eyes of the Lord and of God, and "we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, and each must give an account of himself." 3 So then "let us serve him with fear and all reverence," as he himself commanded us, and as did the Apostles, who brought us the Gospel, and the Prophets who foretold the coming of our Lord. Let us be zealous for good, refraining from offence, and from the false brethren, and from those who bear the name of the Lord in hypocrisy, who deceive empty-minded men. 1 The introductory formula "knowing that" renders it probable that these words are a quotation, but the source is unknown.

. CHAPTER 7 Warning against heresy 1
"For everyone who does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is an anti-Christ"; and whosoever does not confess the testimony of the Cross is of the devil: and whosoever perverts the oracles of the Lord for his own lusts, and says that there is neither resurrection nor judgment, -- this man is the first-born of Satan.1 2 Wherefore, leaving the foolishness of the crowd, and their false teaching, let us turn back to the word which was delivered to us in the beginning, "watching unto prayer" and persevering in fasting, beseeching the all-seeing God in our supplications "to lead us not into temptation," even as the Lord said, "The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak." 1 This phrase, according to Irenaeus (Adv. Haer. 3/3:4) was applied, presumably later, by Polycarp to Marcion.

CHAPTER 8 Perseverance
1 Let us then persevere unceasingly in our hope, and in the pledge of our righteousness, that is in Christ Jesus, "who bare our sins in his own body on the tree, who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth," but for our sakes, that we might live in him, he endured all things. 2 Let us then be imitators of his endurance, and if we suffer for his name's sake let us glorify him. For this is the example which he gave us in himself, and this is what we have believed.

CHAPTER 9 The examples of the martyrs
1 Now I beseech you all to obey the word of righteousness, and to endure with all the endurance which you also saw before your eyes, not only in the blessed Ignatius, and Zosimus, and Rufus, but also in others among yourselves, and in Paul himself, and in the other Apostles; 2 being persuaded that all of these "ran not in vain," but in faith and righteousness, and that they are with the Lord in the "place which is their due," with whom they also suffered. For they did not "love this present world" but him who died on our behalf, and was raised by God for our sakes.

CHAPTER 10 Perseverance in philanthropy and good works

1 Stand fast therefore in these things and follow the example of the Lord, "firm and unchangeable in faith, loving the brotherhood, affectionate to one another," joined together in the truth, forestalling one another in the gentleness of the Lord, despising no man. 2 When you can do good defer it not, "for almsgiving sets free from death; be ye all subject one to the other, having your conversation blameless among the Gentiles," that you may receive praise "for your good works" and that the Lord be not blasphemed in you. 3 "But woe to him through whom the name of the Lord is blasphemed." Therefore teach sobriety to all and show it forth in your own lives.


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Once again St. Polycarp the bishop and Martyr (A.D. 69-155). is not teaching the Protestant doctrine of “Faith Alone”. This is the constistent teachings of the Catholic Church affirming the necessity of faith in our Lord and interior conversion that must show itself in a life of holiness. The only boasting that can be done is boasting in God's work, "for apart from me you can do nothing" (John 15:5). Catholic teaching has been faithful to the teachings of the Apostles. This is a Catholic bishop writing an epistle the same as Clement of Rome, a Catholic, teaching the same Catholic faith as the Apostles. Like I said before, I am pleased that the “research analyst” approves of Polycarps views on Salvation, but he is only reading sentence fragments and not whole paragraphs in context. The Bible also should be read in context.

God Bless

P.S.
"It has been said that Protestants are often better than their creed, and Catholics never so good as their own" (The Gates of the Church, from The Book of Catholic Quotations, ed. John Chapin, American Book-Stratford Press, New York; 1956, p. 116).

 

Thanks Kathryn, this is really good research and information. These are going in my files for sure.

 

REALLY!!

You are not even a practicing Eastern Orthodox. I doubt you could tell me even one thing about our Liturgical rubrics and the meaning of them, yet you have the audacity to act like some sort of authority on the East/West schism and the supposed differences between us. Suppose you quote those differences, Mr. Smart Guy!

The FACT of the matter is that any Eastern Orthodox may at any time, go to a Roman rite Catholic Church and receive Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament of the Eucharist. This in itself is a clear sign of the UNITY of doctrine between us, for that same privilege is NOT accorded to any PROTESTANT GROUP because of the heresies that they hold to which break communion and unity with the Church.

Your statement, short as it is, is so full of errors that it is PATHETIC.

The East recognized for 1000 years the authority of the papacy. They submitted to the deposition of heretical bishops, a practice which the West had to use far too often, since ALL the heresies in Christianity ORIGINATED IN THE EAST (oh shame oh shame). Such submission is a very strange position to take if you do not believe that someone has actual and real authoriy over you. But the East did submit. Until 1054 AD, popes routinely and without complaint from the East, deposed heretical bishops and administered church discipline. Even after the schism, the East attempted several times to reunite with Rome, which again is a very very strange thing to do if they did not recognize Rome's preeminance and authority over the Church.

 

Brother Ed,

You simply don't know what you are talking about. Bob Ryan is far more of an expert on Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy than you or I will ever be. We could study it for another 40 years and we still wouldn't know what he knows.


i.e. There are millions who hate the Catholic Church for what they think it teaches but not 100 who hate it for what it truly is. (fulton sheen I believe).

Bob's a prime example but he will never admit that we know what we believe. Blessings.