For our Catholic friends....

Do I detect an admirable whiff of sarcasm here?

Okay. I'm waiting. I have asked the "expert" to list the differences between Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic praxis.

Dum de dum dah *music from Jeopardy*

Brother Ed

 

From Morning Prayer, 15th Sunday in Ordinary Time (that's today):

God our Father,
your light of truth
guides us to the way of Christ.
May all who follow him
reject what is contrary to the gospel.
We ask this through our Lord Jesus Christ, your Son,
who lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit,
one God, for ever and ever.

This was also the collect prayer in the Mass today, following the penetential rite.

Whelp...lemme take a looksee. Do I love, with all my heart, my God and Savior? Yup, most certainly I do. Do I strive to live by His fullness of Truth, and do be a fervent disciple of my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ? You betcha! Do I wish to always attune myself ever clsoer to the blessed Gospel? Amen to that!

*Looks at self*

Oh my, I am still Catholic! Praise be to God!

God bless you all this Holy Day of the Lord,

Grant

 

For what it's worth, here is a link to some articles from the Orthodox perspective regarding Roman Catholicism:
http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/inq_rc.htm

God Bless

 

Here is an interesting perspective from an Orthodox priest who several years after writing this article decided to come into communion with the Catholic Church. It is very detailed about the state of the Orthodox-Catholic relationship.

http://www.praiseofglory.com/frchrysostom.htm

He also explains some of the "new" anti-Catholic sentiment coming into the Orthodox Church in the United States from Protestants converts who are bringing in their own prejudices and strongly resisting Orthodox-Catholic unity.

Also this site has much information about the relationship.

http://praiseofglory.com/Stmaximus.htm/

God Bless

[ July 13, 2003, 08:45 PM: Message edited by: Kathryn ]

 

...and here's an article from a former Roman Catholic who converted to Orthodoxy:
http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/twopaths.htm

 

So, seems like we have come full circle. Like Brother Ed said:
"There were no major changes of doctrine which the Eastern Church had to adopt to in order to come into communion with Rome. What we did have to do which the Orthodox who have schismated from the Body of Christ are unwilling to do, is to admit to the leadership and headship of the Bishop of Rome as the "servant of servants" and Chief Shepherd of the Church here on earth. Besides that one difference, there simply is no doctrinal argument between East and West. "

God Bless

 

Kathryn,
I guess my point in posting those links was to demonstrate that their is another sizeable group of Christians that claim to be the "One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church". The Orthodox would argue that Rome broke away from them and not the other way around. The "vote" was 4 to 1, so to speak, with the Patriarchates of Constantinople, Antioch, Jerusalem, and Alexandria remaining in communion. Therefore it is Rome (not the East) which is in schism. Although the Orthodox have recognized the Bishop of Rome as a "first among equals", they have never attributed to the Pope attributes (universal supremacy and infallibility) which he later claimed for himself. There are many Orthodox, at least from what I've read, who say that for true reunion to occur Rome must renounce Papal infalliblity/supremecy as heretical and admit that the Filioque was an unauthorized addition to the Creed.

 

The earliest Reformers were the Lutherans and Calvinists. Both of these groups rejected free will and justification by works. Later Protestant groups (in fact, the overwhelming majority in the America) became Arminian and Pelagian. So the more recent denominations are actually closer to the Roman Catholic way than the earlier.

 

Didn't the Lutheran Church and The Roman Catholic Church sign a joint declaration on justification and salvation recently?

Stephen

 

Didn't the Lutheran Church and The Roman Catholic Church sign a joint declarati-on on justification and salvation recently?

Stephen </font>[/QUOTE]Yes, between the Lutheran World Federation and the Roman Catholic Church, see link (Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification ). However, the document was not signed by any of the Confessional Lutheran church-bodies because it does not affirm justification by faith in Christ alone. According to Dr. Al Barry, former President of the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod:

Confessional Lutherans believe that no agreement with Roman is possible as long as it adheres to its Arminian and Pelagian belief system.

 

Hi John,

How is it that the Catholic Church is Pelagian when it was the Catholic Church that condemned Pelagius (the British monk)?

 

http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft9912/articles/dulles.html

God Bless

 

The Pelagian heresy is alive and well in the Roman Catholic Church. Synergism is incompatible with sola fide or sola gratia. If grace is merited, it is no longer grace.

 

God Bless </font>[/QUOTE]Yes, that is a marvelous statement; however, the Vatican and Confessional Lutherans have both expressed reservations regarding other parts of the Joint Declaration: See (link to Vatican Response). See (link to LCMS Response).

 

If grace is merited, it is no longer grace.

And if it is grace that merits the grace, then it remains grace. The principle of merit always lies beyond the saint, never from within. All is grace.

You're attacking Catholicism for what it itself condemns: Semi-Pelagianism.

Reference: http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ330.HTM

 

Pelagianism is any form of synergism where man cooperates with God in order to accomplish his own salvation. Pelagianism has been packaged in many ways (e.g.,"make a decision for Christ"). The common denominator is that man must do something to be saved.

However, according to Lutheran/Calvinist doctrine, man is totally depraved. He is in bondage to Satan and can do nothing to free himself. As Luther wrote in the Catechism, "I cannot by my own reason or strength believe in Jesus Christ, my Lord, or come to Him; but the Holy Ghost has called me by the Gospel."

But most of Christendom is following the call of Pelagius. Christ perfect sacrifice is not enough. The faith created by the Holy Spirit through Word and Sacrament is not enough. We must contribute our own good works. And we are never quite sure whether or not we will have enough merits to get into heaven.

 

John:

So, do you believe that Noah and his family saved himself from death and the flood by building that Ark in obedience to God, or that he was saved by God's Grace? Or did God use Noah's faith and work to save Noah by Grace? Just wondering since Scripture says this corresponds to how we are saved in Baptism.

God Bless

 

Hi John,

Before you respond to this post, I encourage you to take some time off from the Board and learn what the Catholic Church teaches on the subject of justification from a Catholic source.

You wrote, "Pelagianism is any form of synergism where man cooperates with God in order to accomplish his own salvation."

That would be an incorrect description of what Pelagius taught. If you're going to use a term derived from this British monk's name, then you should remain true to what he taught. Otherwise, the term could mean anything.

The common denominator is that man must do something to be saved.

Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?" And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2)

"I cannot by my own reason or strength believe in Jesus Christ, my Lord, or come to Him; but the Holy Ghost has called me by the Gospel."

The Catholic would agree wholeheartedly with your quote of Luther above. It is Catholic dogma that we cannot come to believe in Jesus Christ apart from the movement of actual grace.

We must contribute our own good works. And we are never quite sure whether or not we will have enough merits to get into heaven.

Your statements above in bold are a complete misrepresentation of Roman Catholicism. In no way must we contribute our own good works to coming to initial justification, and in no way do we "merit" initial justification. I am morally assurred right now at this point in time that I will go to heaven completely on the merits of Jesus Christ because I have faith in him. The reason why this isn't an infallible assurance is not because I do not know whether I "have enough merits to get to heaven" as you propose, which is a complete misrepresentation of what the Catholic Church teaches. The reason why this isn't an infallible assurance is because I can commit a mortal sin and disinherit eternal life as warned of numerous times in the Epistle to the Hebrews, as demonstrated by the Prodigal Son in Luke 15, as described by St. Paul in Galatians 5, and as spoken of by John as mortal sin in 1 John 5.

 

I think I know who carried on the true work of the apostles...

Christians.

 

However, according to Lutheran/Calvinist doctrine, man is totally depraved.

Funny, I dont find those words in the Scriptures. The Orthodox have a considerably different view of this. So do the Early Fathers.

He is in bondage to Satan and can do nothing to free himself.

Well, sure. That's why Christ had to die. As we say in the Orthodox Church during the Paschal Antiphons...."By death He conquered death."

As Luther wrote in the Catechism, "I cannot by my own reason or strength believe in Jesus Christ, my Lord, or come to Him; but the Holy Ghost has called me by the Gospel."

Agreed. The Catholic Catechism states quite clearly that no man can say that they come to Jesus by, in, or of their own effort without the calling of the Holy Spirit. Pelegius said that men could come without the work of the Spirit of God.

Not only that, but we must cooperate with the Holy Spirit in our ongoing sanctification, yet without His work in us, no amount of "good works" or effort will increase our state of sanctification.

Christianity is NOT a passive religion. That was the feeling I got as a Calvinist, but Scripture urges us to "work out your salvation in fear and trembling" and to remember with fear those who have fallen away.

Cordially in Christ through the Theotokos,

Brother Ed