For Primitve Baptists

[Bro. James Reed]

Can any of you Primitve Baptist brethren tell me, only if you know, what the split in the Primitve Baptist Church was about? You know, the Trumpets, Peace, Cayces, etc. I have been told numerous reasons by different people, elders. Most of them don't line up. I guess one's explanation might be based on what side of the fence they were on.

 

[tyndale1946]

Bro. James I guess it does depend on what side of the fence you are on... Brother Jeff probably knows the answer but would you look at this picture I found on a meeting of Hardshall preachers in Fulton Kentucky in the year 1900!

... Brother Glen Of The Primitive Baptist Brethren ... Smile and say cheese... Okay don't smile

http://www.primitivebaptist.org/photoarchive/ky/fulton.asp

[ December 20, 2002, 02:41 AM: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]

 

[Jeff Weaver]

Bro. James

Which split are you referring to? THere have been more than one.

Jeff.

 

[HankD]

Dear Brother Glen,

Judging from the picture I would say the split was definitely concerning the question:

To shave or not to shave?

HankD

[ December 20, 2002, 11:04 AM: Message edited by: HankD ]

 

[Lone Pilgrim]

There are so many factions. It is sometimes hard to understand lines of fellowship. One, the Old-Liners are splitting. This can be read about at the Primitive Baptist Library's (Carthage, Ill.) website. There are many on both sides and many issues involved, ie. evangelism, bible studies, universalism, and on and on. Also, at the current time, some Old Schoolers are dropping the Primitive name, and simply want to be known as the "Old School Baptist Church". Within the Primitive ranks there are the Old-Liners (the largest group, generally limited predestinarians, sometimes called universalists, but not actually true), the Old Schoolers (who identify with Gilbert Beebe, the Signs of the Times, etc. who believe in the absolute predestination of all things), the Moderates, the Progressives (who sometimes have Bible Study, choirs, youth meetings, etc.), and many Independents (who may fit in any category or mixture of categories). The most notable thing is the split within the Old-Liner ranks and the numbers involved. I am curious what the new group will be called, not necessarily what they are being called.

 

[tyndale1946]

HankD... Shame on those brethren I guess they ignored Isaiah 7:20... What do you think?... Brother Glen Of The Primitive Baptist Brethren

 

[tyndale1946]

Lone Pilgrim it seems you know more about our brethren that most of our brethren don't know about... Then again there are denominational splits in any group when men become followers of preachers instead of folowers of the Lord and his doctrine.

I feel and any of you other brethren can correct me if I'm wrong... That the biggest split among PB in this part of the country is taking in excluded members... Instead of a brother apologizing to the church he offended or the member he offended by gospel means they join another church and the other church takes them in acussing not the brother that offended but the church that excluded them. The pastor of the church should have not accepted the excluded member in his congregation but he does which further complicates the problem with his fellow yoke fellows... Did I explain that to all PBs understanding and others? That problem split 22 church into for 30 years... Each group going their own separate ways and I guess you can say we were wandering in the desert... Not allowed to fellowship those on the other side although we believed the same thing. That is one split I personally witnessed at the age of around eighteen and just now the churches are getting back together after all this time.

You may ask yourself what happened to bring them together?... Most on both sides of the fence died and their children decided both sides were in error and started from there... And all 22 churches came back together and are fellowshipping again!... What do you make of that?... Brother Glen Of The Primitive Baptist Brethren

 

[Lone Pilgrim]

Dear Brother Glenn, It's just that down through the years I've had friends in a number of factions. Sometimes I forget ( I seem to be doing that more) when someone is not fellowshipping someone else. The Lord has led me to identify with Primitive Baptist Doctrine and has for about thirty years. We just bought eighty hymnbooks from the Cayces and now I read where they are not being fellowshipped either. I know it's my fault, but I just can't keep up with who's who most of the time. Because I've seen many of your posts I remember that you are Old Line, but with others, I may not remember, or not know what perspective/faction they hold to. Please forgive me if I mis-state. I often need correction. May the Lord give us understanding. LP

 

[HankD]

Dear Brother Glen,

RE: Isaiah 7:20.

Yes, although 2 or 3 appear clean shaven.
Lots of middle-of-the-roaders however with mustaches.

HankD

[ December 20, 2002, 04:55 PM: Message edited by: HankD ]

 

[rlvaughn]

James, if you can find a book called The Contest by W. M. Smoot, you will read some very interesting happenings from the 1850 & 1880 divisions. The findings of the Bonham and Fort Worth councils give some insight into the split over absolute predestination (at least in Texas in 1902). A number of splits occurred later.

To read the Bonham council, just scroll down the Red River Association page until you see "The Findings of the Bonham Council."

 

[Bro. James Reed]

Bro. Glen - I've seen this picture on the PB website. I wish we had those kinds of numbers today. Oh well, it is not numbers that make up the church; we can look at several large churches and know this, even some large PBCs. Look at this link. Trumpet Baptist Preachers - 1940's Can you name any of them? The one that's next to last on the bottom right was my great-great uncle, my great grandma's baby brother. My grandma can name all but 2-3 of them. As for the split, I'm not sure that I know exactly which one, only that it was over 100 yrs. ago. It's when the Trumpets, Peace, Cayces, etc. were formed. I have meeting booklets from Peace meetings trying to find a solution to the problem, but the problem is never identified. These booklets date from the 1920's-1950's. This is the split that began to heal in the last 15 yrs. or so. As much as I've heard, most sides preached the same things, but they just did not preach other preachers that weren't also Peace, Trumpet, etc. The story I've heard is that a Trumpet preacher, which is what we were, literally saw writing on the wall of his church telling him to put up an attending Peace preacher to preach. That got the ball rolling and bars that had been up for a hundred years started to fall. In 1990, I think, Ebenezer PBC in Hubbard, TX had their association. The church was so full people had to sit in the kitchen, outside, in the baptistry. The front row of chairs was stacked within about 2 feet of the preacher. I was there. What a wonderful event. Very full of the gospel spirit. BUT, my question is what was this split over? I will look for the resources mentioned. God Bless. Bro. James

 

[Jeff Weaver]

Bro. James

I cannot answer your question. We are out here in the mountains of central Appalachia, and the divisions elsewhere had little/no influence here. Course we had our own divisions, mostly now healed. In 1924 we had a division over universal salvation for all mankind, the so-called "no-heller" division, which still exists. There was a 1928 division over absoulte predestination of all things, which is begining to heal. But now up comes the impending division over the situation in the Phillipines. You all may get mad at me, but the biggest problem PB's have is themselves. Bro. James to get the answer to your question, you are going to have to find someone in your area to explain it to. Even if I had a clue, it would no doubt be clouded with distance, rumour and time. Good luck in your search.
Jeff.

 

[Bro. James Reed]

Thank you all. I finally found what I was looking for. The Trumpet Baptist Confession of 1946 really helped me. The split was mainly in the Ark-La-Tex area. It was a matter that started with absolute predestination. It then ballooned into rumors and gossip about these absolute predestinarians. Many churches attempted to intervene and follow the gospel steps of Matt. 18, but to no avail. This split first occured in 1902 and was not healed until about 10-15 yrs. ago. Some churches still will not drop the bars against other churches, including the church that started the whole mess! I will not name it. Thankfully, most of the churches have admitted their wrongs and made ammends for them with God and their sister churches. I fear you are right about the impending split involving the Philippines. We are having struggles with this within our own church. We've also, in the past year, had the misfortune of going through the same thing that these churches did back in 1946. Elders making accusations against one another, and refusing to follow the gospel steps of Matt. 18 before informing their church. This cost us our pastor a while back. Hopefully, as has been witnessed by me, these grudges are starting to give way to the desire to follow God's way and fellowship with His people. The main thing I want to get across about this is as follows, when our sinful pride begins to come into the affairs of the church, we need to take a long hard look to see exactly what we are allowing our sinful flesh to get away with. I hope that all of our sister churches will eventually come into order, God-willing, so that we may once again fellowship with God's people, even if they have strayed from the path in the past. We also need to be more willing to forgive than to accuse. I hope that I will never have to be in non-fellowship with any of my brethren. God Bless. Bro. James

 

[Harald]

I am a bit perplexed right now as to the Primitive Baptists and the Old School Predestinarian Baptists. So I want to make a question. Can any tell me which of the Primitive Baptists and Predestinarian Baptists hold to or agree with elder Wilson Thompson's teachings on the Godhead and regarding the person of Jesus Christ as he set forth in his "Triumphs of Truth"? Can any tell who they were that opposed that book and the previous one, "Simple Truth", in the 1820's? I learned from his autobiography that some among his camp opposed his teachings as set forth in those books. And can any inform whether among the Primitives and Predestinarians are such today who oppose Thompson's views.

Just to inform the ignorant elder Thompson seems to have strayed from classic orthodox trinitarianism in those works, teaching that Jesus Christ was the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, kind of like the oneness pentecostals. He also taught incarnational sonship of Christ Jesus. He also taught Christ's human soul pre-existed before the incarnation. He repudiated the classic Christian doctrine of the eternal divine Sonship of Jesus Christ.

Thankful for any enlightening answers.

Harald

 

[rlvaughn]

harald, I am not sure that I can be of much help, but I will give my observations, such as they are. I do not personally know any Primitive Baptists that agree with Elder Thompson's positions on the Godhead. I think the general consensus among them would be that they hold Wilson Thompson in high regard, but that they believe he was wrong in these areas of doctrine.