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For the Calvinists: What are Key Points of Calvin's Theology beyond TULIP?
- Thread starter Ed B
- Start date
It is amazing when we are not around how others will say things that are credited to us that we never said.
God is the primary source/agent of the Arminian salvation process.
WHO then actually saves us though?
God deciding to save us, or us be freely deciding to accept jesus and get saved?
(munch, munch) Actually, it won't require any work at all.
It's as clear as a buttonhook in the well water. You said God doesn't change a man's heart; He coerces him to do what he has no desire to do. And don't try to say you only meant God doesn't coerce "a profession." Your Jonah example was an example of how God works to convert a man.
You absolutely contradict yourself at every turn.
did Moses have the desire from the get go to be the hebrew deliverer? Gideon? Elijah always had his heart set same way as Gods?
Think bible FULL of examples of the Lord having to melt and mold/move herats and mindset of His chosen servants to see things the right way!
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Yes.........
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
I hear munching, is that you eating pop corn or your brain engaging?
Incorrect. I said, and I quote verbatim (something you should try), "I think it is a mistake to presume God is somehow inwardly manipulating the nature and desires of man to casually determine their choices. He could, no doubt, but in scripture He just doesn't work that way."
And again, I actually said, and I QUOTE, "With Jonah, did God work internally to supernaturally change Jonah's nature and desires so as to make him want to preach in Ninevah? No. He used 'normative' or 'outward' means so as to allow him to respond and be convinced to do what otherwise he didn't want to do."
If anyone of us believes in divine coercion, it would be you.
Actually, it was an example of how God persuades men to accomplish his purposes in bringing truth to the world; and to show that he doesn't use effectual inward means, but resistible outward means. AND to show that his unique usage of these outward means (big fish/blinding light etc) is for his divinely appointed messengers, not those who hear their message.
Only the strawmen in your mind are contradicting each other, Aaron. It might help if you use my actual words instead of putting words in my mouth at every turn.
Well, its going to be either divine Election, faith, salavation OR
faith, salvation election!
its going to be God electing us based upon NOTHING but Hios own Will or based upon us cooperating with Him!
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Outward means (big fish, blinding lights, gospel, envy, signs etc) affect us inwardly too, Dude.
Jesus said, "I tell you, it will be more bearable on that day for Sodom than for that town. 13 "Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes. 14 But it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment than for you."
Clearly Jesus believed and taught that signs would have lead to repentance. Why don't you? Do you disagree with Jesus' assessment and think that Tyre and Sidon would NOT have repented even if those same miracles had been performed there? Why do you disagree with Jesus on this point, Aaron?
was jesus making a "fact statement" here, or was he using that to illustarte a point here? that they had the messiah in their midst and were refusing to heed and obey Him?
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Yes....... I don't think Jesus would lie to make his point, do you?