For those who speak in tongues...

[Claudia_T]

WATER BAPTISM NECESSARY?

Well if you will read Romann Chapter 6 along with Ephesians Chapter 5 you can see why water baptism is necessary.

Romans Chapter 6 clearly tells us to STOP continuing on in our sins, and that because we are now under grace, this does not give us a license to sin (verses 1 and 2)

Then we are told that when we are baptised, we are baptised into the death of Christ. We are to be "buried with Him" by baptism UNTO DEATH (verse 3 and 4)

Then we are to be RAISED INTO NEWNESS OF LIFE.. like unto His Resurrection. We are to die unto sin, be risen unto Christ and NOT ALLOW SIN TO REIGN IN US ANYMORE (Verses 5-12)

Our old man is to be CRUCIFIED WITH CHRIST, no longer serving sin.

This entire process that is to become a reality in us, is demonstrated by our being raised down into the water to "DIE" and then being raised back up out of the water to new life... no longer serving sin and allowing it to be in control of us. That is the very PURPOSE of the death of Christ, not only to pay for our past sins and to forgive us, but also to raise us to new life... now under control of God's Holy Spirit (the operative word being "Holy"... we are to now live HOLY lives).

Then if you will go and read Ephesians Chapter 5 along side of this entire thing you can clearly see what "being risen from the dead" actually means AGAIN. "Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light." No longer to walk in the "darkness" of our former lives, our former domination by sin... we are now to arise from the "dead" and to leave our old, unclean, filthy way of life.


And finally we are warned:


"Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience." Ephesians 5 verse 6

And so a little sprinkling of water, or leaving out the water altogether in baptism would demonstrate first that you just plain dont want to do what God says, and in addition it would show that you have no real understanding of what water baptism really means.

Claudia


Read to understand what I am saying:

Romans 6:
1: What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2: God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3: Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4: Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5: For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7: For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8: Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9: Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10: For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11: Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12: Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.


Ephesians 5:
1: Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
2: And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
3: But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
4: Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
5: For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6: Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
7: Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
8: For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
9: (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth
10: Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.
11: And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
12: For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.
13: But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.
14: Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.
15: See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise,
16: Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.

 

[Link]

I call this form of dispensationalism that rejects water baptism based on some extra-scriptural concept of dispensations overlaid on one's interpretation of scripture 'hyper-dispensationalism' or 'extreme dispensationalism.' It seems heretical to me. Water baptism is a basic doctrine of the faith.

Another extreme in the opposite direction is extreme preterists. That is what I call preterists who allegorize the resurrection away and claim that the resurrection has already occured. Paul delivered a couple of men over to Satan for saying the resurrection had occured when it had not yet occured.

 

[Brian30755]

It seems no coincidence that those who were raised speaking in tongues tend to do it and those raised not to believe in it do not do it. That suggests to me that its widespread use is a function of learned behavior and not a gift of the Holy Spirit.

I don't think it's learned behavior. I think it's a matter of belief. If you are taught in your church that speaking in tongues has ceased, then you (and probably everyone else in your church) believes that speaking in tongues has ceased, so you will not see it in operation in your church. Unbelief even hindered Jesus. Why would it not hinder the Holy Spirit?

Mark 6
1 And he went out from thence, and came into his own country; and his disciples follow him.

2 And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the synagogue: and many hearing him were astonished, saying, From whence hath this man these things? and what wisdom is this which is given unto him, that even such mighty works are wrought by his hands?

3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.

4 But Jesus, said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.

5 And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.

6 And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching.

DHK Here's my challenge to you......you find me a hospital where everyone wants to get healed and still believe healing is for today.

Exactly. Without belief, it ain't gonna happen.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Brian30755:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />It seems no coincidence that those who were raised speaking in tongues tend to do it and those raised not to believe in it do not do it. That suggests to me that its widespread use is a function of learned behavior and not a gift of the Holy Spirit.

I don't think it's learned behavior. I think it's a matter of belief. If you are taught in your church that speaking in tongues has ceased, then you (and probably everyone else in your church) believes that speaking in tongues has ceased, so you will not see it in operation in your church. Unbelief even hindered Jesus. Why would it not hinder the Holy Spirit?</font>[/QUOTE]Yes, you are absolutely right. It is based on whatever your church teaches. So, did you know that there is a man on the moon that eats green cheese. He does so because that is what the moon is made out of--yes, green cheese. He wears a yellow pointed dunce cap. And he offers salvation and forgiveness of sins to all others who will join him in wearing yellow pointed dunce caps. We have sweet communion together as we share in the sacrament of eating green cheese, from which each one receives salvic grace. Now all of this is very true. How do I know? The church said so, of course. Whatever your church teaches you must be true, because that is what they said.
You have no obligation to the Bible; no obligation to 2Tim.2:15 whatsoever, do you?

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Just believe what your church teaches, right?

On a personal note, I happen to believe the Bible, and I do study it. The very basic Baptist distinctive is that the Bible is our final authority in all matters of faith and practice. It is the Bible that teaches me that tongues have ceased. Just as I don't have to stick my head in a garbage pail to find out if it stinks or is dirty, neither do I have to have the "experience" of tongues to know that it is not Biblical!

Mark 6
1 And he went out from thence, and came into his own country; and his disciples follow him.

2 And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the synagogue: and many hearing him were astonished, saying, From whence hath this man these things? and what wisdom is this which is given unto him, that even such mighty works are wrought by his hands?

3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.

4 But Jesus, said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.

5 And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.

6 And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching.

DHK Here's my challenge to you......you find me a hospital where everyone wants to get healed and still believe healing is for today.

Exactly. Without belief, it ain't gonna happen. [/QB][/QUOTE]
You have a problem in quoting those verses. You don't quote the context along with the verses do you? It puts you in a very embarassing situation. What is the context? Why did Jesus either do or not do miracles?

John 20:30-31 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

The purpose of the miracles of Christ was to demonstrate His deity. It was to prove to the world that He was God. So unless you are trying to demonstrate to us/BB that you are deity, such miracles are not for today. If you believe they are, shall I report you to the other moderators as one who is claiming to be Christ?

The Biblical pattern for healing is described in the fifth chapter of James. There is no faith healer there, only the pastors of the church. Notice that the sick person ought to go to the pastors of the church who will pray for the sick one. Then what does it say?
James 5:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up;
--What prayer of faith? Who prayed it? Whose faith? It is the faith of the pastor, not the faith of the sick person. It has nothing to do with the faith of the person who was sick. Your theology is all confused.

In Jesus day he did no miracles because of their faith--that is they would not believe that he was the Christ no matter what kind of miracle he did. Are you doing the same thing? Are you trying to be God?? It has nothing to do with healing the sick.

Read and study the Scriptures: There were times in the lives of Christ and of the Apostles when all that came to them were healed: all, everyone, no one excluded, every single one, all of them that came, ALL! But there is no one that can do that today, not one.
That demonstrates that the faith-healers so-called of today are frauds. They can't heal because they don't have the gift. They don't have the gift, because the gift has ceased.
DHK

 

[Brian30755]

Yes, you are absolutely right. It is based on whatever your church teaches. So, did you know that there is a man on the moon that eats green cheese. He does so because that is what the moon is made out of--yes, green cheese. He wears a yellow pointed dunce cap. And he offers salvation and forgiveness of sins to all others who will join him in wearing yellow pointed dunce caps. We have sweet communion together as we share in the sacrament of eating green cheese, from which each one receives salvic grace. Now all of this is very true. How do I know? The church said so, of course. Whatever your church teaches you must be true, because that is what they said.
You have no obligation to the Bible; no obligation to 2Tim.2:15 whatsoever, do you?

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Just believe what your church teaches, right?

I never said "Just believe what your church teaches". My point was, most people DON'T study their Bible for themselves like they should. Therefore, when a church teaches that "speaking in tongues has ceased", most members believe that speaking in tongues has ceased, without studying to see what the Bible really says.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Sorry, but regardless of what you seem to believe, you AREN'T the ultimate authority on God's Word. PLENTY of people have "studied to show themselves approved unto God", and they still believe that speaking in tongues and the other sign gifts ARE in operation today.

You have a problem in quoting those verses. You don't quote the context along with the verses do you? It puts you in a very embarassing situation. What is the context? Why did Jesus either do or not do miracles?

Funny, I don't feel embarrased. Why did Jesus not do the miracles? Because of their unbelief.

The purpose of the miracles of Christ was to demonstrate His deity. It was to prove to the world that He was God.

I realize what the purpose of the miracles of Christ were.

So unless you are trying to demonstrate to us/BB that you are deity, such miracles are not for today. If you believe they are, shall I report you to the other moderators as one who is claiming to be Christ?

You can report me to the moderators, your preacher, the pope, George W. Bush, Billy Graham, your mama......it doesn't matter. I never implied such a thing, and that comment was uncalled for.

The Biblical pattern for healing is described in the fifth chapter of James. There is no faith healer there, only the pastors of the church. Notice that the sick person ought to go to the pastors of the church who will pray for the sick one. Then what does it say?
James 5:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up;
--What prayer of faith? Who prayed it? Whose faith? It is the faith of the pastor, not the faith of the sick person. It has nothing to do with the faith of the person who was sick. Your theology is all confused.

Why don't you mention verse 13? "Is any among you afflicted? Let him pray."

Just curious.....in your church, do you have a time, (say, near the end of the service), where those who are sick go up and have the pastor(s) pray for them? Or is this something that would be done in private? And do your pastor(s) anoint the sick with oil when they pray for them?

 

[Briguy]

Hi Brian, don't be offended at what DHK said he was just making a point and doing it in a manner that it would get your attention and make you think.
I am just jumping in on the end of this conversation but I wanted to comment on something. You seem to imply that Jesus could not do the miracles he wanted to do, based on the scripture you quoted. Do you really believe that? The very Son of God, in fact God Himself, the creator of the universe, was not able to do a miracle, in particular, heal a disease, even though He wanted to?? Hopefully now you can look at that scripture with the right perspective. Jesus knows all and He chose not to do miracles at that time and probably several other times because there was no reason to prove to the people that he was God, the people were hard of heart and were not going to change. Was Jesus surprized by this? No, because he knows all, He had some sort of earthly feeling about what was happening though. Scripture says He marveled at the unbelief of the people. Even though He knew they would not believe, before they had not believed, he still marveled at the fact that they were not believing. I would equate it to us watching a video recording of 9/11. We know exactly what is going to happen and yet we marvel at the event as it unfolds before our eyes. Anyway, just wanted to make sure you did not start thinking that Jesus was unable to do something or that he did not know the hearts of the people, based on the scripture that was used.

Hi DHK, Hope all is well with you!!

In Christ,
Brian

 

[tamborine lady]

And so when Jesus said:

Mark 6-5 And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.

---He didn't really mean what He said?


Briguy, you don't have to defend or explain DHK, he can do a fantastic job for himself. And we do understand him exactly!!

On another note, good to see you, where you been??

Jesus could do no mighty works because they didn't believe He could. He doesn't FORCE Himself on anyone.

Sheesh!!

Peace,

Tam

 

[DHK]

So, Tam, you believe that Christ, in his divintiy, was not omniscient, and did not know the hearts of men?

John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

Nothing came as a surprise to Christ. He is the omniscient all-knowing God. He knew of Nathaniel before he ever saw him. That is what convinced Nathaniel that he was the Messiah. He was quite able to do his miracles, but chose not to. No amount of miracles would convince them that He was God.
No amount of miracles that you do would convince me that you are God. It is a parallel situation, for that was the purpose of his miracles. You must look at and believe the Scriptures:

John 20:30-31 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

The signs (miracles) that He did were for the express purpose of demonstrating to others that He was the Christ, the Son of God, and therefore you might believe on Him and have life through His name.

Is that the purpose of you doing miracles??
DHK

 

[tamborine lady]

I'm not sayng He wasn't able to. Of course He knew their hearts. But He didn't do any miracles, because they didn't believe.

How much plainer can it get!! Please stop nit picking. We are saying the same thing !!

Tam

 

[DHK]

We are not saying the same thing Tam; there is a world of difference.
Your premise is that people couldn't be healed because they didn't have enough faith. You back that up with a false (out of context) Scripture that Jesus did no miracles there, because of their unbelief.

That is entirely false. Jesus did no miracles there not because they had no faith to be healed, but because they did not believe (had not the faith in Christ) did not believe that Christ was the Messiah. You can't use that as a proof text to prove that unbelief on the part of the believer is why no healings or other such "miracles" are not taking place. You are taking Scripture out of context, wrongly dividing the Word of Truth.
Jesus was demonstrating His deity.
I ask you again. If you are performing such miracles today; are you doing it for the same purpose? Are you demonstrating your deity?
That was the purpose of the miracles of Christ.
DHK

 

[D28guy]

DHK,

"It is the Bible that teaches me that tongues have ceased."

OK, lets look at those scriptures and see...

"And these signs will follow those who believe:..."

Do you believe that "those who believe" cesed in the 1st century?

No?

Good, keep reading...

"In my name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues, they will take up serpents, and if they drink anything deadly it will by no means hurt them, they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover"

For 2000 years now...continuesly, without interuption...there have been "those who believe", and along with those people have been all kinds of miraclous activity, healing, and those who speak in tongues.

"There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord.

And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all.

But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all:

for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit,..."

Do you believe God is no longer giving the gift of wisdom to "those who believe"?

No?

Good. Keep reading...

"...to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit,

to another faith by the same Spirit,..."

Do you believe that God is no longer giving knowledge or faith to "those who believe"?

No?

Good. Keep reading...

"...to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit,

to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues."

But all of a sudden, God decides to withdraw these gifts after a short time in the 1st century?

Where in the text does God say that? There is nothing that in any way differentiates these gifts from the 1st ones listed.

"But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills."

God has been doing that for 2000 years now regarding "those who believe".

Let me ask you this...do you believe that every single believer who has spoken in tongues over the last 2000 years, an unbroken and uninterrupted string of millions of believers, are either making it up so as to brag of something they dont really have, or they are doing it by the power of Satan?

God bless,

Mike

 

[D28guy]

DHK,

"On a personal note, I happen to believe the Bible, and I do study it. The very basic Baptist distinctive is that the Bible is our final authority in all matters of faith and practice."

And Pentecostals and Charismatice believe precisely as they do because they they "happen to believe the Bible", and they "do study it". They would say that "the very basic Charismatic/Pentecostal distinctive is that the Bible is our final authority in all matters of faith and practice."

And they would say that when the scriptures teach that the gift of tongues is for us, we say "yes Lord! The scriptures teach it, so we believe it", as opposed to those who let tradition cancel out the truths of the word of God.

And when you say "Yes, you are absolutely right. It is based on whatever your church teaches." you are completly missing the point he was making. The point was that if an entire congregation is told that tongues are not for today, then quite naturally they usually will not seek the gift, and so wont recieve.

But...praise God He sometimes goes and beautifully grants the gift to the complete surprise of the recipient!

God bless,

Mike

 

[mman]

Originally posted by D28guy:
DHK,

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />"It is the Bible that teaches me that tongues have ceased."

OK, lets look at those scriptures and see...

"And these signs will follow those who believe:..."

Do you believe that "those who believe" cesed in the 1st century?

No?

Good, keep reading...

"In my name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues, they will take up serpents, and if they drink anything deadly it will by no means hurt them, they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover"

For 2000 years now...continuesly, without interuption...there have been "those who believe", and along with those people have been all kinds of miraclous activity, healing, and those who speak in tongues.

"There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord.

And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all.

But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all:

for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit,..."

Do you believe God is no longer giving the gift of wisdom to "those who believe"?

No?

Good. Keep reading...

"...to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit,

to another faith by the same Spirit,..."

Do you believe that God is no longer giving knowledge or faith to "those who believe"?

No?

Good. Keep reading...

"...to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit,

to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues."

But all of a sudden, God decides to withdraw these gifts after a short time in the 1st century?

Where in the text does God say that? There is nothing that in any way differentiates these gifts from the 1st ones listed.

"But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills."

God has been doing that for 2000 years now regarding "those who believe".

Let me ask you this...do you believe that every single believer who has spoken in tongues over the last 2000 years, an unbroken and uninterrupted string of millions of believers, are either making it up so as to brag of something they dont really have, or they are doing it by the power of Satan?

God bless,

Mike </font>[/QUOTE]Lets look at the statements in Mark 16 in context.

Mark 16:14 Afterward he appeared to the eleven themselves as they were reclining at table, and he rebuked them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they had not believed those who saw him after he had risen. 15And he said to them, "Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18they will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover."

Jesus had just rebuked the 11 for their unbelief. Were they believers now? Yes. He then tells them what type of signs will follow.

For those who think this applies today, lets see if you REALLY believe. This verse says that drinking something that is DEADLY poison will not hurt them. Is anyone ready to try this? I guarantee that anyone who drinks deadly poison today will DIE!!!

How can I make such a bold statement? What was the purpose of these signs? Keep reading.

19So then the Lord Jesus, after he had spoken to them, was taken up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God. 20And they went out and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them and confirmed the message by accompanying signs.

When it says the Lord worked with them, who is the "them"? It's the same as the "they"
in verse 20. You can trace it back to the 11.

Ok, back to the purpose of these signs. To confirm their message.

Does God's word need confirming today? No. It has already been confirmed.

Heb 2:3-4 says, "how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him, 4 God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?"

This agrees with what it said in Mark 16.

Notice it "was confirmed". It does not need to keep on being confirmed. This passage says it was confirmed by the signs and miracles and gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Either God's word has been confirmed or it is in need of being confirmed. If you have a new message from God, it will be confirmed with signs and miracles to confirm you are from God. However, if you have a new message, then the bible is not all sufficient, which is contrary to what the bible says about itself (II Tim 3:16-17, II Pet 1:3). You don't need a revelation from God to receive the same message in the written word, that has already been confirmed.

God's word has already been confirmed therefore the accompanying signs and miracles are no longer needed. If you can't drink deadly poision and be unharmed, then you cannot speak in tongues(unlearned languages). It's that simple.

Has anyone ever had the chance to "use" their ability to speak in an unlearned language to preach the gospel to someone who does not understand english.

If someone claims to speak in an unlearned language, then can you type in an unlearned language? One should not be any harder than the other. Give it an honest try and we'll see if it really is a language. How about a sample?

 

[Briguy]

mman, nice post. I thought we were on different sides of the "sign gift" issue? Did you change your view? or am I remembering wrong. Anyway, hope you are well these days. Mman, you are very much right that those early sign and wonders had a distinct purpose and that purpose is done. You and DHK have done a good job with showing what the purpose was.

Tam, DHK pretty much said what I was going to. I would suggest reading the KJV very carefully because language was different back when it was written. Some words may have changed their meaning a little. I believe " could there do no mighty work" is an example of wording differences. It is easy to look at the word "could" and think in terms of ability but that is not what was meant. The word "could" clearly is not meaning what we think "could" should mean. "would" is a better word usage but even with could if read carefully in context, works. Jesus "could" not do miracles there because doing miracles there would serve no purpose and He was not going around doing things without purpose.

Anyway, Tam, I don't come around real often anymore but may now for a while again. Thanks for the greeting. Things are well with me. Life's business and struggles continue but by God's grace always seems to step in at the right time and help me and my family along.

Tam, I hope you are well and your walk with the Lord has been strong!

D28guy, If you look at Tongue speaking historically you will see that there is little evidence to support that Tongues continued after the first century. Modern Tongues have basically popped back up in the 1900's. From what i have read and been taught Pagans have been speaking in gibberish speech all along but not Christians. I think you need to read 1 Cor. 14 carefully and see that Tongues are directly called a "sign" They pointed to something as all signs do. The gift of Tongues (languages) was a sign for a particular group of people at a particular time in history. 1 Cor. 14 references back to Isaiah 28 (I think that is what it is) Do the research and tell me your conclusion. I was open to Tongues being a current gift when I started reading and researching it. The Bible was clear and I think you will see that as you look at it more. Happy Hunting!!

In Christ,
Brian

 

[tamborine lady]

DHK, I do not do miracles. If any happen while I am there, God does them, not me.

I am definately NOT Deity. There is no point in trying to debate with you guys, because all you want to do is prove that you are right.

So, as in the past, I am going to leave it with you , and you can go on with the old buddies club.

All I can say is, that some folks are going to be really embarressed when we get to heaven.

But I'm sure it is your intention to get me to stop posting, Well you got it on this thread until some other topic catches my interest.

Peace,

Tam

 

[mman]

Originally posted by Briguy:
[QB] mman, nice post. I thought we were on different sides of the "sign gift" issue? Did you change your view? or am I remembering wrong. Anyway, hope you are well these days. Mman, you are very much right that those early sign and wonders had a distinct purpose and that purpose is done. You and DHK have done a good job with showing what the purpose was.

No, my views have not changed on this issue. This is one area I am in total agreement, as far as I know, with DHK (which I'm sure is of no comfort to him

)

Now, if he could just see the light on the purpose of baptism.....

 

[music4Him]

_________________________________________________
The Bible was clear and I think you will see that as you look at it more.
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Yes the Lord will reveal it and make it clear.
As some of you know I was raised Baptist. I have looked at the scriptures and studied and I'd always have more scriptures come to mind.... as to say if this scripture is truley saying tongues is not for today then what about this scripture "or" what about the people of Corinth.... Always bringing me to the one passage of scripture in 1 Corinthians.......
13:8-10
8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

Tell me who has it 100% perfect? What church is 100% whole? What demomination has the perfect understanding. The above mentioned scripture is the words of the Apostle Paul. This was after the upper room that he wasn't in attendance. He recieved afterward as others did.
mman you made the statement....
Does God's word need confirming today? No. It has already been confirmed.
My question is......has the gosple been preached to the whole creation? Jesus said: Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Jesus also said: Mt 24:14
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

It tends to lead me to believe that healing, miricals, prophecy and all the gifts are still here, still valid, still for today. What scriptures can you offer that confirm they no longer exsist today.

Also there was a question put to ~Tam when speaking of Jesus demonstrating his deity by healing.

quote:
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Jesus was demonstrating His deity.
I ask you again. If you are performing such miracles today; are you doing it for the same purpose? Are you demonstrating your deity?
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Just a question and no need to answer just think about it. The Bible tells me that Jesus comes to live inside me when I got saved. It is still Jesus that recieves the Glory if someone gets healed while Tam or even the one who made this statement about deity. It is not us but the One who is now living in us ("us" being those that are bought by the blood, and saved by Jesus) that does the healing. It wasn't the Apostles that healed it was Jesus living in them.

To say something ceases or no longer exsist......to me is saying it is dead or no longer nessesary. Grab the Greek text if you have to and tell me that I'm either right or wrong?

 

[D28guy]

mman,

"For those who think this applies today, lets see if you REALLY believe. This verse says that drinking something that is DEADLY poison will not hurt them. Is anyone ready to try this? I guarantee that anyone who drinks deadly poison today will DIE!!!"

The scriptures dont say that if we tempt God and deliberetly drink anything deadly it wont hurt us. That reminds me of those who deliberetly pick up deadly snakes. But just in my lifetime I have heard many many testimonies from believers who were bitten by deadly snakes but they didnt die, or people had other types deadly situations where the doctors were amazed that they didnt die.

"What was the purpose of these signs? Keep reading.

19So then the Lord Jesus, after he had spoken to them, was taken up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God. 20And they went out and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them and confirmed the message by accompanying signs.

When it says the Lord worked with them, who is the "them"? It's the same as the "they"
in verse 20. You can trace it back to the 11.

Ok, back to the purpose of these signs. To confirm their message.

Does God's word need confirming today? No. It has already been confirmed.

Heb 2:3-4 says, "how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him, 4 God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?"

God desired for the message to be confirmed then, and you are right. The miracles that occured somethimes...not all the time...confirmed the message.

Its no different today. Today God still sometimes confirms the message with accompanying signs. The scriptures give evidence that in the 1st century these signs accompanied the message, but there are many today who dont believe the scriptures are the innerrant and completly true word of God. They believe they are a bunch of myths and fables written by men. So God sovereignly decides to sometimes grant the same confirming signs as before.

I've heard many testimonies from converts who mocked until they saw some activity of the nature we are speaking of here. That activity impacted them and gave credibility to the message, and they were born again.

Grace and peace,

Mike

 

[mman]

Originally posted by music4Him:
mman you made the statement....
Does God's word need confirming today? No. It has already been confirmed.
My question is......has the gosple been preached to the whole creation? Jesus said: Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Jesus also said: Mt 24:14
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.[/quote}

If you keep reading in Matt 24 you will come to verse 34 which states, "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place."

He is clearly talking about the destruction of Jerusalem, not the end of the world, prior to verse 34.

Has the gospel been preached to all nations? Rom 16:25, Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began 26 but now made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith—

It tends to lead me to believe that healing, miricals, prophecy and all the gifts are still here, still valid, still for today. What scriptures can you offer that confirm they no longer exsist today.

I have shown the purpose of miracles, to confirm the word. We now have the written word which has been confirmed. Therefore, it does not need re-confirming, else the original confirmation was inadequate.

My questions to you. Is God's word sufficient? Why would God's written word need reconfirming? Don't be confused or deceived about I Cor 13. The "perfect" in verse 10 does not mean sinless. No, it means complete. When they didn't have the written word, it was necessary to confirm the message was from God by the signs and wonders and miracle. However, when the written word was complete, having already been confirmed, then those childish things were put away.

God's word is either all sufficient or it's not. If I speak anything contrary to what has already been delivered, then I am to be accursed (Gal 1). I am thorough equipped (II Tim 3:16-17) when I have the inspired word.

Here again is a challenge. Type me a message in an unlearned language. One can do this using the internet and going to some translation site, but anyone honest with themselves cannot do this.

Have you ever seen anyone healed immediately? Someone who has never walked? Someone who was born blind? Someone born deaf? No, you have not, I know this for certain. There is a reason for that.

The miracles of the NT were instantaneous and undeniable, providing the confirmation they were from God.

 

[D28guy]

Briguy,

"D28guy, If you look at Tongue speaking historically you will see that there is little evidence to support that Tongues continued after the first century. Modern Tongues have basically popped back up in the 1900's."

I would recommend you pick up a book entitled "2000 years of Charismatic Christianity". It shows clearly that although there have been "ebbs and flows" regarding the gifts...sometimes being more profuse, while other times being less prominant...they sign gifts of the Holy Spirit have never ceased, as the cessationists very wrongly teach.

They...all of them...have continued uninterrupted for 2000 years now. The period since the 1900's you spoke of it just another time when the "ebb and flow" has swung in the "greater" direction.

God bless,

Mike