For those who speak in tongues...

BTW I'm still wondering why there are no comments on Joel Chapter 2? With the bible lasting throughout the ages I know that there where scribes or even Josephus(sp?) would have wrote of something happening to the magnitude of what Joel said would happen. I was told all this that happend in Joel ch.2 was about 70 AD and then then it ceased being referred back to
1 Cor. 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

 

Brian,

They were a sign to authenticate the gospel. The gospel to the jews is the same gospel that is offered to the gentiles. Why would the same sign not apply?

After pentecost...

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus"

Tongues, and the other gifts of the Spirit, are clearly for the Gentiles as well as the Jews:

"Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be ignorant: You know that you were Gentiles, carried away to these dumb idols, however you were led. Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit. There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: or to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills."

The sign gifts authenticate the gospel messaage. They make plain that there is a living God who makes Himself evident as He chooses to.


I said...

And you said...

1 Cor 12:7 is not the only scripture that speaks of tongues. Scripture must fit together like a hand in a glove. We cant use one scripture as a reason to eliminate another.

Tongues as a personal prayer language...

"Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered."

"For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries."

And I have a question for you. You say that tongues are only a 1st century sign to unbelieving Jews.

Are all Jews believers now? No?

Then why would the gift cease?

No problem.

God bless,

Mike

 

God's word is all sufficient (II Tim 3:16-17).

If God's word is truly all sufficient, we don't need the same gifts they had in the first century, before the written word was available.

Will anything new be revealed? No! If you preach another gospel (which is not another) than what was preached, you are to be accursed (Gal 1).

God's word is the source of faith (Rom 10:17). God's word was once delivered (Jude 3). The miracles were to confirm the word that was being delivered, therefore the word was confirmed (Heb 2:3-4).

When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways.

Look at what is to be done away with, I Cor 13:8 As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.

If you read Chapter 11, you will see all the various gifts. These three represent the entire list.

When will they cease, when that which is complete (Teleios) is here. The completed written word.

Some incorrectly try to tie this to heaven or Jesus return. Will all language stop? Will all knowledge be done away with in heaven? Of course not. He is talking about the gifts being done away with.

Something that amazes me is that nobody that I have ever talked to that claimed to be able to speak in tongues has ever used that gift to preach the gospel to someone of another language.

Paul makes it clear, its better to speak 5 words that people can understand than 10,000 they don't (II Cor 14:19). Can people speak in foreign languages they have not learned to people that can understand?

So with yourselves, if with your tongue you utter speech that is not intelligible, how will anyone know what is said? For you will be speaking into the air. There are doubtless many different languages in the world, and none is without meaning, but if I do not know the meaning of the language, I will be a foreigner to the speaker and the speaker a foreigner to me.- II Cor 14:9-11

 

The word of God would not be sufficient if part of the inspired word of God was missing.
The gifts of the Spirit ( including tongues) are part of the completed scripture.
Take this away from the scripture and the word of God would be incomplete.

 

BTW M&M man
Why did peter when answering the question:
"What meaneth this?",
Say This promise is unto you and to as many as the Lord our God shall call>
Why didn"t He say ,this promise is for the ealry Apostles to kick off the church and then it will not be valid afterwards?
Please give me an answer to this.

 

That is a great question and I would like to discuss it.

First of all, let's get the context. Peter and the other apostles had just preached the good news about Jesus to the Jews, who were responsible for the death of Jesus. That message cut them to the heart and those believers wanted to know what they needed to do.

Now notice verses 38-41 of Acts 2, "And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself." And with many other words he bore witness and continued to exhort them, saying, "Save yourselves from this crooked generation." So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls."

What promise? That those believers who repented and were baptized would receive the forgivness of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Who was this promise to? You, your childeren, and all who are far off, and everyone whom the Lord our God calls. II Thess shows that we are called through the gospel, which is how they were called in Acts 2.

This gift of the Holy Spirit, what is it. While there has been much discussion concerning this, I think we can rule out signs and wonders and miracles. Why?

Is there any question that the 3000 in vs 41 received the "gift of the Holy Spirit"? I don't think anyone would argue to the contrary, but I don't know. Anyway, the supporting texts do not imply or suggest that those baptized on the day of Pentecost in Acts 2 and received the indwelling Spirit could perform signs and wonders and miracles, but rather to the contrary. At first, it appears that only the Apostles could perform these things.

Look at verse 43 of Acts 2, “and fear came upon every soul; and many wonders and signs were done through the apostles”. If verse 38 meant that everyone who believed and was baptized could perform miracles by receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit, there would have been hundreds, if not thousands in Jerusalem who could perform the signs and wonders. This is contrary to verse 43.

Now lets consider the miracle performed by Peter and John in Acts 3. This appears to have been an unusual event. Note what the Jewish leaders said in Acts 4:16 “. . . for that indeed a notable miracle hath been wrought through them, is manifest to all that dwell in Jerusalem; and we cannot deny it” (Acts 4:16).

There is not the slightest hint that hundreds or thousands of Christians were duplicating such signs in the city.

Now look at Acts 5:12-17, "Now many signs and wonders were regularly done among the people by the hands of the apostles. And they were all together in Solomon's Portico. None of the rest dared join them, but the people held them in high esteem. And more than ever believers were added to the Lord, multitudes of both men and women, so that they even carried out the sick into the streets and laid them on cots and mats, that as Peter came by at least his shadow might fall on some of them. The people also gathered from the towns around Jerusalem, bringing the sick and those afflicted with unclean spirits, and they were all healed."

The multitudes held only the apostles in high esteem which suggests they were doing signs not characteristic of the saints.

It is only when one comes to Acts chapter 6 that we have others performing signs and wonders and this ability is passed through the laying on of the Apostles hands (Acts 6:6,8).

Acts 8 also has one of these men performing miracles and the ability to perform these signs was only bestowed by the laying on of the apostles hands (Acts 8:18).

Time will not permit me to go any further at this point, but there is more to say on this topic.

 

Mike wrote """""Tongues as a personal prayer language...

"Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered."

"For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries."

And I have a question for you. You say that tongues are only a 1st century sign to unbelieving Jews.

Are all Jews believers now? No?

Then why would the gift cease?"""""

Mike, read again what you just wrote. I never said that Tongues were just a sign to unbelieving Jews. I completed that thought but you have left it out here. What I said is that Tongues were a "sign" to unbelieving Isreal that a judgement was coming and the judgement would bring destruction and scattering. Tongues were letting them know what was coming. The prophecy had been made by Isaiah and it played out in 70ad. Should we be surprized that a prophecy from the OT came true?? Of course not as Jesus fulfilled many many prophiecies. I have clearly shown by what Paul said and what Isaiah said that Tongues were a sign to the Jews. A sign of judgement and destruction. I again ask, what do Tongues tell the Gentiles is coming?? Signs are not open ended they have direct ending times. That is why billboards that show "events" are always being updated.

As to a private prayer language. First the one verse you quoted says that the groanings can't be uttered. Not uttered equals silence, no words. Tongues that I have heard are anything but silent, they are chalked full of words, well and sounds, etc... The other verse from 1 Cor. 14 is not a good thing. Paul is rebuking the corinth church on their mis-use of tongues. The verse you quoted and the other often mis-used verse that says Tongues edifies the speaker (you know the verse). Paul is saying these two practices are wrong. He has established that gifts are for the good of the body and he is saying, "Look folks you guys are all speaking in what you think is tongues just to make yourself feel better and look important and that is wrong" That is why he says to prophecy, which in contexts is to build eachother up. We are never to puff ourselves up and tongues were being used to do that. The other verse that you used is also a negative thing. Speaking mysteries is a bad thing. That is why Paul uses the examples afterward about the soldiers not being able to understand the battle call from a trumpet playing "mysterious" or "ramdom" notes. As a side note God in this verse could be un-capitalized and read "a god", which would clear up the verse even more. The Greek is not clear which way it has to read. "a god" makes more sense. Either way it is a firm rebuke and not a pattern to follow. It is what we are NOT SUPPOSED to do.

Thanks again for the great debate. It is fun to probe the word of God!!

In Christ,
Brian

 

That is a great question and I would like to discuss it.

First of all, let's get the context. Peter and the other apostles had just preached the good news about Jesus to the Jews, who were responsible for the death of Jesus. That message cut them to the heart and those believers wanted to know what they needed to do.

Now notice verses 38-41 of Acts 2, "And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself." And with many other words he bore witness and continued to exhort them, saying, "Save yourselves from this crooked generation." So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls."

What promise? That those believers who repented and were baptized would receive the forgivness of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Who was this promise to? You, your childeren, and all who are far off, and everyone whom the Lord our God calls. II Thess shows that we are called through the gospel, which is how they were called in Acts 2.

This gift of the Holy Spirit, what is it. While there has been much discussion concerning this, I think we can rule out signs and wonders and miracles. Why?

Is there any question that the 3000 in vs 41 received the "gift of the Holy Spirit"? I don't think anyone would argue to the contrary, but I don't know. Anyway, the supporting texts do not imply or suggest that those baptized on the day of Pentecost in Acts 2 and received the indwelling Spirit could perform signs and wonders and miracles, but rather to the contrary. At first, it appears that only the Apostles could perform these things.

Look at verse 43 of Acts 2, “and fear came upon every soul; and many wonders and signs were done through the apostles”. If verse 38 meant that everyone who believed and was baptized could perform miracles by receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit, there would have been hundreds, if not thousands in Jerusalem who could perform the signs and wonders. This is contrary to verse 43.

Now lets consider the miracle performed by Peter and John in Acts 3. This appears to have been an unusual event. Note what the Jewish leaders said in Acts 4:16 “. . . for that indeed a notable miracle hath been wrought through them, is manifest to all that dwell in Jerusalem; and we cannot deny it” (Acts 4:16).

There is not the slightest hint that hundreds or thousands of Christians were duplicating such signs in the city.

Now look at Acts 5:12-17, "Now many signs and wonders were regularly done among the people by the hands of the apostles. And they were all together in Solomon's Portico. None of the rest dared join them, but the people held them in high esteem. And more than ever believers were added to the Lord, multitudes of both men and women, so that they even carried out the sick into the streets and laid them on cots and mats, that as Peter came by at least his shadow might fall on some of them. The people also gathered from the towns around Jerusalem, bringing the sick and those afflicted with unclean spirits, and they were all healed."

The multitudes held only the apostles in high esteem which suggests they were doing signs not characteristic of the saints.

It is only when one comes to Acts chapter 6 that we have others performing signs and wonders and this ability is passed through the laying on of the Apostles hands (Acts 6:6,8).

Acts 8 also has one of these men performing miracles and the ability to perform these signs was only bestowed by the laying on of the apostles hands (Acts 8:18).

Time will not permit me to go any further at this point, but there is more to say on this topic. </font>[/QUOTE]you are right in that it would take a lot of time
to discuss this but while you are in ACTs read Acts 19
These people were saved and then baptized and something else happened. This still happens today. It happened to me. It is happening through out the world. the countries that have this happen often are experiencing An awakening. people are being saved.
Check out what is going on in India, Africa And South America.
Where this is happening tongues are a part of the churches.
Those that oppose tongues for today are furious about this.
There are lots of groups that were used to having the biggest churches that are seeing churches accomplish more than them and they are becoming jealous just as Saul become jealous of David when the ladies sung Saul has kelled his thousands and David his ten thousands.
The other side of this coin is that if you will ask a Southern Baptist Missionaries ( you will have to promise to keep this confidential and he must believe that you will)if church services that he has participated in and seen people saved if Tongues was accepted as a iblicl truth for today at least /2 will admit this if they are convinced that you will keep the conversation confidential.
If they don't think you can keep this as confident they will not discuss this with you for fear of loosing their missionary status.
Try this but keep if confidential.

 

Brian,

1st...you dont believe there is a judgement coming for each and every one of us...including unbelieving Jews of this day? There is a terrible "Great White Throne" judgement coming for all who are not found to be in Christ.

Also, there is a great judgment coming on this world...as terrible as the judgment that came upon Jerusalem in 70AD.

2nd...have you not considered the wisdom found in Acts 2:12-21...

"2:12 So they were all amazed and perplexed, saying to one another, "Whatever could this mean?"

2:13 Others mocking said, "They are full of new wine."

2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, "Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words.

2:15 For these are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day.

2:16 But this is what was spoken by the prophet

Joel: 2:17 'And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams.

2:18 And on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days; And they shall prophesy.

2:19 I will show wonders in heaven above And signs in the earth beneath: Blood and fire and vapor of smoke.

2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.

2:21 And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the Lord Shall be saved'.

2:22 Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know--

2:23 Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken F8 by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death;

2:24 whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it."


I quoted regarding the personal prayer language...

(from Romans)

"26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us F21 with groanings which cannot be uttered."

And you said...

No it doesnt. I have no ability to utter the Swahili language. I can try and try but the sounds I make wont be Swahili.


And then I quoted from 1 Corinthians...

"14:1 Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.

14:2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.

14:3 But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men.

14:4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church."

And you said...

That is not at all what he is saying. He is simply saying that the one..interpreted...is more edifying when imparting wisdom to a gathered group of believers.

After expaining that, he endorses both...

"14:15 What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding.

14:16 Otherwise, if you bless with the spirit, how will he who occupies the place of the uninformed say "Amen" at your giving of thanks, since he does not understand what you say?

14:17 For you indeed give thanks well, but the other is not edified.

14:18 I thank my God I speak with tongues more than you all;

14:19 yet in the church I would rather speak five words with my understanding, that I may teach others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue."


Also, I have asked 2 questions that I believe you have not adressed.(If you have I missed it...sorry)

1) Why did the rainbow in the sky...the "sign"...not cease when those he specifically gave it to died?

2) If Tongues were a sign of coming judgment on unbelieving Jews, why would it cease when there are still unbelieving Jews, who all have a coming judgment coming upon them soon?(the Great White Thrown Judgment)

God bless,

Mike

 

Brian,

After quoting a passage of scripture in my post above, I forgot to comment on this. After the brothers and sisters were accused of being drunk as they spoke in tongues, Peter gave this..

When in 70AD did all of that happen? I know when it happens in the coming end time scenerio, but not in 70AD.

Mike

 

When in 70AD did all of that happen? I know when it happens in the coming end time scenerio, but not in 70AD.

Mike </font>[/QUOTE] I been tring to get a answer on that for a few days now myself.

 

Maybe it was June 19th at 6:41 pm Eastern Standard time during the year AD 70.
The saints were praying in tongues and all of a sudden they couldn't do this anymore because it came to a dead stop.
In Jerusalem however there is a big time zone difference so did this happen on June 19 or June 18?

 

Woops! the historians forgot to record this event in 70AD when tongues came to an abrupt stop!

 

Note that Peter said: "This is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel.

It was a partial fulfillment (as many prophecies are). It was a historic fulfillment--meaning it happened--one time, one date, in history. The day and time was exactly when Peter said it was. This IS. It was the Day of Pentecost. He was referring specifically to those that were speaking in tongues, and that part of the prophecy that was being then fulfilled. Now look at the rest of the prophecy that was quoted:

Have these things happened yet? Have they happened at any time in history from the Day of Pentecost onward? The obvious answer is no. They are events that are still to come. And just as these events are yet to be fulfilled so are the other events yet to have a complete fulfillment. In this particular prophecy I don't think that 70 A.D. enters into the picture. It has its fulfillment right at the end of the Tribulation period and at the beginning of the Millennial Kingdom. It specifically says "Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord," referring to his second coming.
DHK

 

DHK said most of what I was ging to pont out on the Peter/Joel issue. Peter was quoting Joel as a way of telling the people about God's power. He was saying that these "Tongues" were miraculous and an outpouring of God's Holy Spirit, like what Joel spoke about. Peter was not saying that this was the exact occurance because like DHK said, the context of Joel is "the great and terrible day of the Lord". Joel was clearly speaking of a yet to come event. An event we still wait for. Peter quoted Joel as to show God's power and how awesome God was and how great is that which is yet to come. Joel does not in fact mention Tongues. Just dreams, visions, etc... If read in context it is pretty clear to see that Peter was not saying the time of Joel's prophecy had come but that God was pouring out His Spirit now in a manner like He would at the very end, after the tribulation. That is why most of the things mentioned have not happened in any way shape or form.

In Christ,
Brian

In Christ,
Brian

 

DKH
Why do you say that this happenned one time and one date. Acts 8, Acts 10, Acts 19 might be interesting reading.

 

Then by all means read those chapters!!
But don't try to force them into the context of Acts chapter 2. Peter didn't say: "This is that which is going to happen in Acts chapter 8, 10 and 19, did he?
He said: "This is that which is spoken of by the prophet Joel" The emphasis is on the "IS." It was a present event that Peter was pointing at. The unsaved mocking Jews were accusing those speaking in tongues of being drunk. Peter, in his rebuke of them, said, NO! This (this very event) is a fulfillment of Joel's prophecy--Joel 2:28. It doesn't apply anywhere else in the New Testament, except in its complete fulfillment when Christ comes again, not anywhere in the Book of Acts! Don't try to force your own preconceived ideas into a passage where they don't belong.
DHK

 

Hi Mike, Yes there will be a judgement, scripture tells us that. Scripture does not say that Tongues will point to that judgement. Paul quotes Isaiah and says this is what you are seeing happening, The Jews are being warned of a pending judgement because of their unbelief. That is all we can go on. We can't make Tongues into more then it is. Also, the next verses you quoted from 1 Cor. 14 are also negative. I am not sure how you are reading something good into them. Paul says that if a person cannot say AMEN to someone speaking in a language that they don't understand. AMEN means "it is so". You can't confirm something when you don't know what you are confirming. Paul is saying that people needed to speak in the language the whole assembly would understand so that folks could say AMEN. Don't forget the rebuking quality to the whole of 1 Cor. more later,

In Christ,
Brian

My post on Peter/Joel should answer some of your other questions!!

 

DHK said: Note that Peter said: "This is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`

When God said "this is my beloved son, does that mean that because He said "is" that Jesus is no longer His son? Does it mean that Jesus no longer exists??

If you say to someone, "this is my songbook". Does that mean that it won't be your songbook next week or next year?

Selah,

Tam