For Wednesday Crucifixion Advocates....

[Shoostie]

This is all irrelevant. Luke records that Sunday (the first day of the week) was the 3rd day from all the events of the crucifixion. If Sunday is the third day, and Wednesday is the crucifixion day, then that means Jesus was taken into custody Tuesday night. That's 5 days and nights in the heart of the earth and 5 days since the crucifixion.

If Wednesday is the crucifixion day, Jesus was "in the heart of the earth" for 5 days and night"? Sorry, I can't even begin to see any reason is that.

Going backwards:
Saturday night
Saturday day
Friday night
Friday day
Thursday night
Thursday day

That's three days and three nights. But we know Jesus wasn't in the tomb starting in the morning, as he was only put there at sunset. We don't know he was in the tomb Saturday night. So, strike Saturday night and add in Wednesday night, and we get to three days and three nights.

To answer the OP, Saturday was the third day. But, Sunday morning is when the tomb was discovered empty.

I think Thursday is also a fair answer. You'd have to count time on the cross as a day in the heart of the earth, but he didn't die until evening. This would make Sunday the third day. I'm also doubtful that the Jews would plan two sabbaths in a row (Friday high sabbath plus Saturday).

 

[MB]

The Scripture says at His ascension, Ephesians 4:8.

That was when he led the captivity captive not when he went there to preach to them the gospel in Hell David wrote;
Psa 16:8 I have set the LORD always before me: because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved.
Psa 16:9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope.
Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Psa 16:11 Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.
MB

 

[Calminian]

Mat_12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Indeed, there's a big clue right there. Heart of the earth is compared to belly of the whale. Interestingly, Jonah never died. But he was captive, just as Jesus was, starting Thursday night (the start of Friday). Heart of the earth does not mean tomb.

Grave, earth, tomb, all the same thing a place for the dead.

You are wrong. Earth has many meanings, and its primary one is land in both the Old and New Testament. The common phrase to indicate the grave would "under the earth" which indicates burial (Phil. 2:10, Rev. 5:3, Rev. 5:13). But this is not the phrase Jesus used. He used the phrase heart of the earth, or heart of the land. Today we have a similar term, heartland, which never refers to burial. It's rather a geographical term.

 

[percho]

Indeed, there's a big clue right there. Heart of the earth is compared to belly of the whale. Interestingly, Jonah never died. But he was captive, just as Jesus was, starting Thursday night (the start of Friday). Heart of the earth does not mean tomb.



You are wrong. Earth has many meanings, and its primary one is land in both the Old and New Testament. The common phrase to indicate the grave would "under the earth" which indicates burial (Phil. 2:10, Rev. 5:3, Rev. 5:13). But this is not the phrase Jesus used. He used the phrase heart of the earth, or heart of the land. Today we have a similar term, heartland, which never refers to burial. It's rather a geographical term.

IMHO

for, as Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights, so shall the Son of Man be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights. Matt 12:40 YLT

And Jehovah appointeth a great fish to swallow up Jonah, and Jonah is in the bowels of the fish three days and three nights. And Jonah prayeth unto Jehovah his God from the bowels of the fish. And he saith: I called, because of my distress, to Jehovah, And He doth answer me, From the belly of sheol (NT Hades) I have cried, Thou hast heard my voice. Jonah 1:17, 2:1,2 YLT

The heart of the earth is the same as the belly of Sheol/Hades

and having cried with a loud voice, Jesus said, 'Father, to Thy hands I commit my spirit;' and these things having said, he breathed forth the spirit. Luke 23:46 YLT
That is when the soul Jesus entered Hades for three days and three nights, as in the following; >

Jesus answered, 'Are there not twelve hours in the day? if any one may walk in the day, he doth not stumble, because the light of this world he doth see; and if any one may walk in the night, he stumbleth, because the light is not in him.' John 11:9,10 YLT

having foreseen, he did speak concerning the rising again of the Christ, that his soul was not left to hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. Acts 2:31 YLT

As I said, MHO.

 

[Calminian]

IMHO

for, as Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights, so shall the Son of Man be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights. Matt 12:40 YLT

And Jehovah appointeth a great fish to swallow up Jonah, and Jonah is in the bowels of the fish three days and three nights. And Jonah prayeth unto Jehovah his God from the bowels of the fish. And he saith: I called, because of my distress, to Jehovah, And He doth answer me, From the belly of sheol (NT Hades) I have cried, Thou hast heard my voice. Jonah 1:17, 2:1,2 YLT

The heart of the earth is the same as the belly of Sheol/Hades

and having cried with a loud voice, Jesus said, 'Father, to Thy hands I commit my spirit;' and these things having said, he breathed forth the spirit. Luke 23:46 YLT
That is when the soul Jesus entered Hades for three days and three nights, as in the following; >

Jesus answered, 'Are there not twelve hours in the day? if any one may walk in the day, he doth not stumble, because the light of this world he doth see; and if any one may walk in the night, he stumbleth, because the light is not in him.' John 11:9,10 YLT

having foreseen, he did speak concerning the rising again of the Christ, that his soul was not left to hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. Acts 2:31 YLT

As I said, MHO.

We do agree the "belly of the whale" analogy is the key to understanding the phrase "heart of the earth."

I can also agree that death was part of the heart of the earth experience. It certainly included his execution and time in the grave. But it also included his incarceration, which seems to coincide with Jonah's experience, which, in part, was captivity.

The other interesting parallel is Jonah's willingness to enter into the belly of sheol. Jonah said,

Jonah 1:12 “Pick me up and throw me into the sea,” he replied, “and it will become calm. I know that it is my fault that this great storm has come upon you.”​

Jesus spoke similarly before his incarceration.

Matt. 26:52 “Put your sword back in its place,” … 53 Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? 54 But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?”​

Just as Jonah willingly entered the sea and the belly of the whale, so Jesus willing entered the custody of evil men—the heart of the earth. This is the sign of Jonah.

 

[37818]

There is the understanding Christ's soul died on the cross prior to His physical death. Isaiah 53:10-12, death of His soul. Finished on the cross before His physical death, John 19:28-30. And placed in the tomb after His deaths, Isaiah 53:9, ". . . And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; . . ." The plural translated as a singular. Is soul being again alive prior to His physcial death.

 

[Calminian]

There is the understanding Christ's soul died on the cross prior to His physical death. Isaiah 53:10-12, death of His soul. Finished on the cross before His physical death, John 19:28-30. And placed in the tomb after His deaths, Isaiah 53:9, ". . . And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; . . ." The plural translated as a singular. Is soul being again alive prior to His physcial death.

Perhaps when he cried out "why have you forsaken me?" Not sure about that one.

There is 2Cor. 5:21, "For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." This definitely carries the idea of Christ taking on our judgment, which definitely started when he was taken into custody, Thursday night. I think we often don't ponder enough the hellish trials he went through the eve before his crucifixion.

 

[Reformed1689]

I asked this below question about a dozen times in a previous thread.

....Is Sunday (the first day of the week) the third day?

I was not able to get a single response from Wednesdayers. I know it poses problems, but I'm sure there's an answer.

To the Jewish mind a day and a night is a single unit. Any part of that day or part of that night constitutes the whole. Therefore the point is not that He had to be in there three whole days and three whole nights; but to the Jew that is a unit and any part of one of those units constitutes the unit. So it is that Jesus then must be buried in the earth before the Sabbath begins to constitute a part of that day so that there will be three days, the Friday, the Saturday, and then the Sunday as it is a part of that day and He rises from the grave, This is as close as we can get to the understanding of why Joseph did what he did. He was in a hurry. Why? Because he had to get Jesus in that grave while it was still Friday because the Sabbath began in the evening when the sun went down. So he’s in a hurry. Joseph becomes God’s instrument fulfilling.the prophecy of Christ’s burial not only with the rich but making sure that Jesus gets buried so that He can be three days in the grave and still rise on the day that God has designed for Him to rise. So Jesus while He’s dead does for Joseph what He couldn’t do when He was alive, He brings an open confession from Joseph. So Joseph is in a big hurry. He wants to get Jesus buried before nightfall because it’s the Sabbath. God wants Him buried before nightfall because God wants Him there three days.

John F. MacArthur Jr., John MacArthur Sermon Archive (Panorama City, CA: Grace to You, 2014).

 

[Shoostie]

To the Jewish mind a day and a night is a single unit. Any part of that day or part of that night constitutes the whole.

That's ridiculous. A small part of a day doesn't count as a whole day. Most of a day might count as a whole day.

Therefore

Don't try to reach conclusions when your starting point is ridiculous. And, even with the ridiculous starting point, Friday through Saturday night still doesn't work. It's it's only two days and two nights.

John F. MacArthur Jr., John MacArthur Sermon Archive (Panorama City, CA: Grace to You, 2014).

John MacArthur has a bad habit of taking ridiculous falsehoods and passing them off as fact.

 

[Reformed1689]

That's ridiculous. A small part of a day doesn't count as a whole day. Most of a day might count as a whole day.

Notice he is talking about 1st Century Jewish culture. Not how we understand it today...

 

[Shoostie]

Notice he is talking about 1st Century Jewish culture. Not how we understand it today...

1) Still just two days and two nights

2) The word day occurs over 2000 times in the Bible. And, never once is a small part of a day necessarily being treated as a whole day.

3) The word day occurs over 2000 times in the Bible. And, in many cases if a small part of a day is treated as a day, it renders worthless the meaning of a day.

4) The part of a day falsehood comes from a conversation recorded in the Talmud, from a minority opinion rabbi talking about ritual cleanliness.

 

[Calminian]

To the Jewish mind a day and a night is a single unit. Any part of that day or part of that night constitutes the whole. ...

I'll respectfully part with MacArthur on this.

This is misleading. Yes, any portion of a day is considered a day. But a portion of the daytime is not considered or described as a day and night in the Jewish mind. It's a myth. It's basing a conclusion on a starting assumption. There's nothing to back this up.

What is true, is that an portion of a night would be considered a night, and a portion of a day would be considered a day. But that's as far as it goes. A portion of the night is never described as a day and night and a portion of the daytime is never described a day and a night. Day and night each have distinct meanings given by God himself in Genesis 1:4-5. When both are mentioned we need to take notice.

It's funny because we spend so much trying to tweak the the meaning of 3 days and 3 nights, and almost no time trying to understand the true meaning of the phrase "heart of the earth." The phrase is much more obscure, only used once in the entire Bible. Yet it doesn't get even close to equal time.

 

[MB]

Indeed, there's a big clue right there. Heart of the earth is compared to belly of the whale. Interestingly, Jonah never died. But he was captive, just as Jesus was, starting Thursday night (the start of Friday). Heart of the earth does not mean tomb.



You are wrong. Earth has many meanings, and its primary one is land in both the Old and New Testament. The common phrase to indicate the grave would "under the earth" which indicates burial (Phil. 2:10, Rev. 5:3, Rev. 5:13). But this is not the phrase Jesus used. He used the phrase heart of the earth, or heart of the land. Today we have a similar term, heartland, which never refers to burial. It's rather a geographical term.

A tomb cut out of a rock is still the earth because the rock is part of the earth. Even if He had been buried it would still be the same. He would have been in the earth. Are you thinking that a tomb made out of a rock is not made out of earth? How is it that rock isn't earth?
MB

 

[Calminian]

A tomb cut out of a rock is still the earth because the rock is part of the earth. Even if He had been buried it would still be the same. He would have been in the earth. Are you thinking that a tomb made out of a rock is not made out of earth? How is it that rock isn't earth?
MB

No idea what you're talking about. Confusing me with another poster?

What I've said is, there is a difference between heart of the earth and under the earth, which is a burial term in Scripture.

In modern english we have two similar terms: heartland and underground. These are not synonyms nor interchangeable by any stretch. Why would be assume the former phrases are?

We also have the metaphors belly of the whale and belly of the beast in modern english, and neither of these refer to the grave. They refer, rather, to dire situations.

The point is, why are we so dogmatic about the meaning of heart of the earth, used only once in Scripture? Is it not at least worth looking into?

 

[MB]

No idea what you're talking about. Confusing me with another poster?

What I've said is, there is a difference between heart of the earth and under the earth, which is a burial term in Scripture.

In modern english we have two similar terms: heartland and underground. These are not synonyms nor interchangeable by any stretch. Why would be assume the former phrases are?

We also have the metaphors belly of the whale and belly of the beast in modern english, and neither of these refer to the grave. They refer, rather, to dire situations.

The point is, why are we so dogmatic about the meaning of heart of the earth, used only once in Scripture? Is it not at least worth looking into?

Where do you look for more information on something that is only mentioned once? To me it means deep in the earth as the heart of man is deep inside of him. I believe the Spirit of Christ went to where David was and preached the path of life to Him and others being held captive. Per Psalm 16 I believe men who died before the first advent were placed in a special place for them to wait for the preaching of Jesus so they could be saved. The blood of bulls and goats could never save. They had to wait for Jesus. This place could not have been hell it self unless the Lord separated them from torture..

Other than Psalms 16 this may not be absolute. I have studied this for years now and still have not come to a satisfied conclusion.
MB

 

[Calminian]

Where do you look for more information on something that is only mentioned once? To me it means deep in the earth as the heart of man is deep inside of him.

Okay, great. Let's start there. What exactly does "earth" mean in this passage? Are we talking planet earth? Or are we talking land? This will probably help us get into the mind of the original author God used.

I believe the Spirit of Christ went to where David was and preached the path of life to Him and others being held captive....

Yes, I believe this happened, it would seem based on several passages that allude to this event. The question is, are these events the totality of the heart of the earth experience Jesus went through, or is it only part of it?

 

[percho]

Question for all?

"And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."
(1 Thessalonians 5:23 KJV)

Relative to Jesus on whatever day he died:

Using our concept of time;

A.
1. Where was the spirit of Jesus, who had given up his spirit, at 315 PM?
2. Where was the soul of Jesus, who had died for our sins, at 315 PM?
3. Where was the corruptible body of Jesus, who had died for our sins, at 315 PM?

At 615 PM our time that day, literally 15 minutes into the next day God set time the 15th day of the first month;

B.
1. Where was the spirit of Jesus, who had given up his spirit?
2. Where was the soul of Jesus, who had died for our sins?
3. Where was the corruptible body of Jesus, who had died for our sins?

C.
1. a. b.For how much time was the spirit, in the hands, of the Father? Was the Son Jesus renewed with the Spirit?
2. For how much time was the soul in Hades?
3. For how much time was the body corruptible, yet did not see corruption?

My answers;
A 1 In the hands of the Father
A 2 In Hades
A 3 On the cross

B 1 In the hands of the Father
B 2 In Hades
B 3 In the tomb of another

C 1a Three days and three nights 1b Yes *
C 2 Three days and three nights
C 3 Three days and three nights

* Rom 8: 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Acts 2:32,33 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

 

[Calminian]

Question for all?

"And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."
(1 Thessalonians 5:23 KJV)

Relative to Jesus on whatever day he died:

Using our concept of time;

A.
1. Where was the spirit of Jesus, who had given up his spirit, at 315 PM?
2. Where was the soul of Jesus, who had died for our sins, at 315 PM?
3. Where was the corruptible body of Jesus, who had died for our sins, at 315 PM?

At 615 PM our time that day, literally 15 minutes into the next day God set time the 15th day of the first month;

B.
1. Where was the spirit of Jesus, who had given up his spirit?
2. Where was the soul of Jesus, who had died for our sins?
3. Where was the corruptible body of Jesus, who had died for our sins?

C.
1. a. b.For how much time was the spirit, in the hands, of the Father? Was the Son Jesus renewed with the Spirit?
2. For how much time was the soul in Hades?
3. For how much time was the body corruptible, yet did not see corruption?

My answers;
A 1 In the hands of the Father
A 2 In Hades
A 3 On the cross

B 1 In the hands of the Father
B 2 In Hades
B 3 In the tomb of another

C 1a Three days and three nights 1b Yes *
C 2 Three days and three nights
C 3 Three days and three nights

* Rom 8: 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Acts 2:32,33 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

This needs a new thread. Little off from where I was hoping this conversation would go.

 

[percho]

This needs a new thread. Little off from where I was hoping this conversation would go.

Posted primarily to show, IMHO, the spirit of Jesus the Son of God, see Matt. 16:13-17 returned to God, the Father therefore the Son of Man , dead, was three days and three nights in the hears of the earth, the lowest parts of the earth, that is, Hades, the realm of all dead.

Please do not speak of compartments for I can not find them in the word of God relative to the dead.

I believe the Son of Man departed to Hades about 3 PM on the 14th day of the first month, a Wednesday of our week, a regular day. The 15th day of the first month began at sunset and was a day of holy convocation, no work to be done, Jesus was entombed just prior to this sunset and was seen where entombed by the women who were there. The 15th being a holy convocation day of rest is what the women did on that day. I believe in the daylight hours of the 16th day which had began the sunset before, the women went into Jerusalem and bought spices, carried to some place and prepared the them but by then the weekly sabbath was approaching, the 17th day of the first month, therefore they rested that day according to the commandment.

On the 18th while still dark they went to the tomb but found it empty,I believe it had been empty since the afternoon of the previous day. I believe Jesus was raised from Hades in body incorruptible, no more to return to corruption Acts 13:34 on the Sabbath day.

The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner. This is the LORD'S doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it. Psalms 118:22-24
Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Acts 4:10,11

 

[Calminian]

Posted primarily to show, IMHO, the spirit of Jesus the Son of God, see Matt. 16:13-17 returned to God, the Father therefore the Son of Man , dead, was three days and three nights in the hears of the earth, the lowest parts of the earth, that is, Hades, the realm of all dead.

Please do not speak of compartments for I can not find them in the word of God relative to the dead.

I believe the Son of Man departed to Hades about 3 PM on the 14th day of the first month, a Wednesday of our week, a regular day. The 15th day of the first month began at sunset and was a day of holy convocation, no work to be done, Jesus was entombed just prior to this sunset and was seen where entombed by the women who were there. The 15th being a holy convocation day of rest is what the women did on that day. I believe in the daylight hours of the 16th day which had began the sunset before, the women went into Jerusalem and bought spices, carried to some place and prepared the them but by then the weekly sabbath was approaching, the 17th day of the first month, therefore they rested that day according to the commandment.

On the 18th while still dark they went to the tomb but found it empty,I believe it had been empty since the afternoon of the previous day. I believe Jesus was raised from Hades in body incorruptible, no more to return to corruption Acts 13:34 on the Sabbath day.

The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner. This is the LORD'S doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it. Psalms 118:22-24
Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Acts 4:10,11

The issue is the 3 days and 3 nights and crucifixion day, Friday vs. Wednesday. This is off topic.