Forcibly Removing All the Tulips at SWBTS

[Revmitchell]

What is going on ought to be a lesson for all of us to heed. If a man always carries truth, righteousness, and justice people will not have any reason to distrust him. Integrity is really quite a simple thing if you always stay focused on what is right.

This couldn't be more wrong. Not even Jesus was trusted or thought to be trust worthy by all. Just because someone is not trusted does not mean there is validity to the mistrust. Many things get exaggerated or misrepresented as has been done with Dr. Patterson.

 

[EdSutton]

This bitterness exceeds much of what I have seen posted on the Politics Forum.

For some really unvarnished acrimony, check out the 'Bible Versions' Forum. :tonofbricks: :tear:

Ed

 

[gb93433]

This couldn't be more wrong. Not even Jesus was trusted or thought to be trust worthy by all. Just because someone is not trusted does not mean there is validity to the mistrust. Many things get exaggerated or misrepresented as has been done with Dr. Patterson.

If you have ever been investigated as I once was for terminating an employee you would quickly learn that when a person is investigated the truth will come out. What leaders in the SBC have been scrutinized with that kind of scrutiny? Isn't that are far more importance than someone who terminated an employee?

I was once a member of a church where a potential deacon or an elder was presented before the congregation and that person was asked questions. That same person's name was brought before the congregation before that and anyone who might have had an objection to that person serving in that capacity had an opportunity to talk with the pastor in private. The men in that church who were elders and deacons were the best. People had every confidence in the elders and deacons in that church.

How many of the SBC leaders do you know who are currently making disciples? That is the most basic form of leadership and pastoral qualification.

 

[Crabtownboy]

Mohler's actions were actually quite different (if the OP is correct about Patterson's). Mohler removed theological liberals who have no place in discussions about the Bible. Mohler returned Southern to its doctrinal commitments.

Fire those who do not agree with me ... call them Calvnist, non-Calvinist, Liberal, Conservative, Fundamentalist, etc., etc. It is the same cut of cloth.

 

[Grasshopper]

Each one of these I respond to a thread started by someone else. I do not initiate threads about him as does at least one on this board about their hate of the SBC or Dr. Patterson. And your hate of Dr. Patterson is quite revealed in this thread as well. No evidence of obsession with me to be sure.

I actually enjoy listening to Paige Patterson and have tremendous respect for much of what he has done. That doesn't mean I like all of his actions or support him blindly. He is really not to blame though, it is people in the SBC that have allowed this to go on for years and fed his power machine.

Still waiting for the evidence why Klouda was fired.

 

[OldRegular]

For some really unvarnished acrimony, check out the 'Bible Versions' Forum. :tonofbricks: :tear:

Ed

I posted there a couple times. Some of the discussion was beyond me but the acrimony was not.

 

[Revmitchell]

If you have ever been investigated as I once was for terminating an employee you would quickly learn that when a person is investigated the truth will come out. What leaders in the SBC have been scrutinized with that kind of scrutiny? Isn't that are far more importance than someone who terminated an employee?

I was once a member of a church where a potential deacon or an elder was presented before the congregation and that person was asked questions. That same person's name was brought before the congregation before that and anyone who might have had an objection to that person serving in that capacity had an opportunity to talk with the pastor in private. The men in that church who were elders and deacons were the best. People had every confidence in the elders and deacons in that church.

How many of the SBC leaders do you know who are currently making disciples? That is the most basic form of leadership and pastoral qualification.

Really? Did the truth come out about the accusations of Jesus? NO they don't always come out. And can do some unnecessary damage in the mean while. Discipleship and Pastor qualifications are not the object of this thread.

 

[gb93433]

Really? Did the truth come out about the accusations of Jesus? NO they don't always come out.

Have you not read about Jesus? If the truth did not come out we would not have known. I am waiting for answer to post #40

 

[Revmitchell]

Why are you are so easily angered? What facts have you stated to disprove what was written on the blog? You did state that he was slanderous. Is that libel or not? Did I miss some facts?

You really need to be careful assigning emotion to others. It is very difficult to discern such on a forum in most cases. I am in fact not angry at all.

If you wil go back and read my initial response to your op the claim by Burleson has been debunked. There was no staff meeting to plot the ousting of our reformed brothers. Burleson's response to the refutation of his allegations is that rather than to continue the assertion of the meeting he exposed it so it must have stopped it from moving any further.

I know not what facts you missed. You have a habit of overlooking points made only to move on to unrelated pastoral qualifications or the need to make disciples.

 

[preachinjesus]

Interesting how within several years the faculty of SWBTS went from having several female faculty members in theology faculty to having none...and "women's programs" don't count.

One person no one is talking about is Dr. Karen Bullock and what happened to her. While I was at SWBTS we saw our faithful (and really good) female faculty members removed and attempts to have them swept under the carpet.

The only two departments having female faculty are educational ministry and music...and those wonderful members have been primarily protected by tenure.

What happens at SWBTS anymore is out of the hands of alumni and students. It is the way things are.

However, it saddens me the most that so many things are being overlooked to make way for a such a gaudy monstrousity of an unneeded chapel. In a time when we need to be taking Christianity to the edges of the earth and the fringes of our community the leadership has decided that they need to centralize and build a golden calf.

Priorities are all out of whack. The school is suffering.

 

[gb93433]

You really need to be careful assigning emotion to others. It is very difficult to discern such on a forum in most cases. I am in fact not angry at all.

If you will go back and read my initial response to your op the claim by Burleson has been debunked. There was no staff meeting to plot the ousting of our reformed brothers. Burleson's response to the refutation of his allegations is that rather than to continue the assertion of the meeting he exposed it so it must have stopped it from moving any further.

I know not what facts you missed. You have a habit of overlooking points made only to move on to unrelated pastoral qualifications or the need to make disciples.

Thanks for your response.

The most basic qualification of a pastor is proven leadership. That proven leadership is demonstrated in making disciples as Jesus did. One who makes disciples has a very different perspective on the world and God than one who has not ever made disciples.

I just posted the article. I know absolutely nothing about the matter. I gave opportunity for anyone to refute or accept what was posted on the blog. I have no basis to make any judgment for or against the matter. FYI, I do not always agree with what is posted on that blog.

If you do have some facts I would be interested in knowing about them though.

If Burleson has brought up allegations without any facts then he needs to be held accountable and taken to task on them.

What I do see is a lot of mistrust of the leadership in the SBC. That usually does not come out of a vacuum. I have some first hand knowledge of some of the issues because I was employed by Southern Baptists at one time. It is time that the SBC get out of politics and into godliness and reaching people rather than battling their perceived opponents. I truly believe what we are seeing now is not godliness but fighting amongst one another.

What I heard Mohler say on the audio I find to be the way they need to handle issues not like a bulldog and run roughshod over people. The fact is that there will always be people who disagree. I do not even always agree with what I once thought about some things in the past. I find what scripture says to be true--without love we are just a clanging cymbal and are nothing.

 

[gb93433]

One person no one is talking about is Dr. Karen Bullock and what happened to her. While I was at SWBTS we saw our faithful (and really good) female faculty members removed and attempts to have them swept under the carpet.

Take a look at http://www.bhcti.org/administration/karen-bullock.html

Lots of conservative former SWBTS professors.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Fire those who do not agree with me ... call them Calvnist, non-Calvinist, Liberal, Conservative, Fundamentalist, etc., etc. It is the same cut of cloth.

The issue at Southern was biblical doctrine and the founding documents of the school. When people do not teach the Bible at a theological seminary, they should be fired. When people sign their names to the governing documents and then deny them, they should be fired.

 

[JustChristian]

The issue at Southern was biblical doctrine and the founding documents of the school. When people do not teach the Bible at a theological seminary, they should be fired. When people sign their names to the governing documents and then deny them, they should be fired.

Are you claiming that Molly Marshall did not teach the Bible at Southern?"

 

[Pastor Larry]

Are you claiming that Molly Marshall did not teach the Bible at Southern?"

I am not claiming anything about anyone specific. I don't know the facts about anyone in particular.

I did a quick google search on "Molly Marshall Southern" and found out that Dr. Marshall indeed did not teach the Bible. She is a woman pastor, something that the Bible explicitly forbids. Here is an article. You can find others as well.

Here is another quote about Dr. Marshall: Molly Marshall was an advocate of women in the office of pastor, she denied the exclusivity of Jesus Christ (the teaching that Jesus is the only way to heaven), she held to views that condoned homosexuality, and she believed in post-mortem opportunities of salvation. Needless to say, she was teaching in clear contradiction to multiple points of the Abstract of Principles which is a theological statement taken from the Word of God. Molly Marshall and other faculty members resigned.

 

[Pastor Larry]

The most basic qualification of a pastor is proven leadership.

That is a fascinating idea. However, I have to wonder about its biblical basis. I read 1 Tim 3 and Titus 1, both well known passages about the qualifications for pastor, and I don't see anything about "proven leadership."

 

[Revmitchell]

Thanks for your response.

The most basic qualification of a pastor is proven leadership. That proven leadership is demonstrated in making disciples as Jesus did. One who makes disciples has a very different perspective on the world and God than one who has not ever made disciples.

I just posted the article. I know absolutely nothing about the matter. I gave opportunity for anyone to refute or accept what was posted on the blog. I have no basis to make any judgment for or against the matter. FYI, I do not always agree with what is posted on that blog.

If you do have some facts I would be interested in knowing about them though.

If Burleson has brought up allegations without any facts then he needs to be held accountable and taken to task on them.

What I do see is a lot of mistrust of the leadership in the SBC. That usually does not come out of a vacuum. I have some first hand knowledge of some of the issues because I was employed by Southern Baptists at one time. It is time that the SBC get out of politics and into godliness and reaching people rather than battling their perceived opponents. I truly believe what we are seeing now is not godliness but fighting amongst one another.

What I heard Mohler say on the audio I find to be the way they need to handle issues not like a bulldog and run roughshod over people. The fact is that there will always be people who disagree. I do not even always agree with what I once thought about some things in the past. I find what scripture says to be true--without love we are just a clanging cymbal and are nothing.

Again I posted the facts that have been investigated by more than one. Read my post. The qualifications of a pastor are irrelevant to this thread and proven leadership is not one of those. And those who mistrust any leadership at this point are those who disagree with their positions and are trying to make something diabolical out of nothing.

 

[go2church]

Fire for cause or for no cause, whichever it really doesn't matter. These seminaries stopped being relevant the moment Mohler and Patterson where considered to be the best choice to lead Southern and Southeastern, now Southwestern. I hope they do (and it looking like they won't disappoint) what fundamentalists do best, fight each other until there is nothing left to fight over!

 

[Tom Butler]

I don't consider Dr. Mohler a fundamentalist. And I certainly don't see him fighting Dr. Patterson, or anybody else in the SBC.

 

[Pastor Larry]

These seminaries stopped being relevant the moment Mohler and Patterson where considered to be the best choice to lead Southern and Southeastern, now Southwestern.

This is a curious statement which leads to some questions:

What do you mean by relevant?
Who gets to decide that and by what standard do they judge?
How did they stop being relevant?