Foreknowledge, Foreknown, Predestined

And this I know from your "Arminian" testimony.

Yes. They had "free will" and sought to be as gods -- in control.

So, like God, we can choose anything we want but God controls the outcome. If we choose to follow Him, He has shown us the outcome He will give attached to that obedience and it all works for the good. Many times (OT especially) He shows us the outcome if we go against God. Provided with this information, we are capable of choosing between good and bad.

So I believe that what you argue is on behalf of the ignorant. Ignorance of God is slavery to the world. But then no man is in that state for long, (Rom 1-2). Wouldn't you agree? They may not know the gospel but by-and-by they know God (1:20) and the capacity to choose.

I was reading CS Lewis last night who gives a pretty good rationale for this --- two men may argue over an issue where both see the same basic Standard of fairness but choose different means of application. They KNOW there is a God through acknowledging the Standard. One may choose the good and the other the perverse but both their worlds have been opened up to God and His standards of human behavior as against their own personal sinfulness. And this, my friend, makes the "will" free.

skypair

 

I've said this before -- that you "jumped ship," RB. You are a believer who then studied Calvinism and not, what often happens, and unregenerate Calvinist.

We don't HAVE to disagree. The only reason our wills are not like God's is that we do not know all that God knows. His will is "free" on account of His knowledge. Our will is free to the extent that we have His knowledge or knowledge of Him. This is where "things that are made" comes in (Rom 1:19-20). This is where preaching comes in.

Or pretend, as we all do, that we know better than God. knowledge and will are inexorably connected, RB. The knowledge God gives leaves man no excuse for not believing. God created everything in accordance with what He knew. Man can only believe to the extent and regarding things that he knows. But God draws all men with the knowledge of Himself (Whether Christ in NT or one God in OT).

Calvinism is right that we are in bondage unless we can learn nothing about God. They are WRONG in citing 1Cor 2:14, etal. saying unregenerate man cannot learn anything about God. Nature and the preaching of the gospel both reveal the knowledge of God and draw men toward a free will, informed decision about God and Christ.

So how about through preaching? Doesn't "free will" indeed hinge upon knowledge of God and NOT upon as indwelling Spirit already "given" to an unbeliever??

skypair

 

Was it predestined before the foundation of the earth that some people would hijack every thread that comes through this forum, or is it the free will of a couple of obnoxious minds?

 

First, what does it mean by they have "no excuse?" No excuse not to know God? But if they know God, should they not choose to pursue Him unto salvation as the only One who can save?

What does Christ saying "And if I be lifted up, I will draw ALL men to Me" mean then (John 12:32)?

Why, indeed, did God give us the scriptures?

And why, if God meant to draw all men but only to Christ, did He NOT supply a Christ -- a "stumbling block and foolishness" -- for the OT Jews and Gentiles/"strangers" to be saved by?

Not everything of God is "hidden wisdom." Hidden wisdom, as 1Cor 2:11 says, "even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. " You can't know the things of God until you are indwelt by the Spirit. They are like "particular revelation" I guess you would call it.

However, the words of the gospel, like the Bible itself, are "general revelation." Ask any man why Christ died and he will likely know for sin. They will know He was resurrected. They will know that there are people claim to be saved by that knowledge. This is the knowledge that Paul imparted in 1Cor 2:1-5. Do you claim that most men know about Noah, Moses, Abraham, Jesus? There is no "mystery" about these that qualify them as "hidden wisdom of God in mystery," 2:7 All you are doing is taking 1Cor 1:18 and comparing it to 1Cor 2:14, right? In 1:18, it is PREACHING that is foolishness -- BUT (1:21) "it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe." God is not known by worldly wisdom but by preaching, 1:21 which Paul is careful to say he did in 1Cor 2:1-5.

The natural man can understand preaching though. It is the preaching of Peter at Pentecost -- natural men flocked to Christ on that day. Cornelius could understand it, the jailer could.

Maybe this will highlight the issue: Before you were saved, are you claiming that you were a "spiritual man?" Regenerated before you believed? If so, then you are not saved because remember, it is by preaching that you are born again/regenerated/given the hidden wisdom of God.

What YOU apparently heard and believed (if you claim regeneration before beleif) was NOT the gospel of salvation that Jesus and the apostles taught that the brings men to life. You would be trusting in a god who says he will give you his wisdom before he gives you salvation.

Here's the nub of it as I read it last night in "All the Dortrines of the Bible" --- you must be CONVERTED (turn to God of your own will) BEFORE you can be REGENERATED by the exclusive work of God.

Yeah, but apparently you won't admit how in each instance, the unsaved, natural men chose Christ and were saved.

skypair

 

RB, I don't agree that man is only inclined to do evil. Adam ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. He now knows evil in addition to good. It wasn't called the tree of evil, but of good and evil.

Up until Satan tempted Adam and Eve, their only choice was to do good. But once the tempter came, he brought a choice with him. Where there is one thing, there is no choice.

We still have that same knowledge of good and evil that was revealed to Adam when he ate the fruit. We can do good and follow the commandment of God, or we can do evil and follow Satan.

I don't see where God wiped out all knowledge of Himself when He commanded Adam to leave the garden.

Cain had the same knowledge of good that Abel had, but chose not to do good.

We see in Romans 1 that God has given all men a revelation of Himself in His creation and the conscience that He places within each one.

So, I see that man has a knowledge of both good and of evil, just as did Adam did when he ate the fruit and is able to choose between the two.

 

Hi lazy bones,
I'm not sure what you're question is. No one is righteous by God's standards once they've sinned. We have all sinned, therefore we are not righteous. (Not talking about babies, that's another talk show ) Our righteousness comes from Christ through our faith in Him. Whether a Jew or Gentile doesn't matter, because He has written His law on our hearts in the form of the conscience. That's why no one has an excuse (between the God given conscience and general revelation in nature, God has given man what he needs to seek God).
This doesn't mean that we don't have a choice when it comes to eternal life that God offers us. As I said we have the knowledge of good and evil and the responsiblity to choose good, which means reaching out to God for our salvation.

Edit: God did not say the tree of "spiritually" good and evil.

 

Sorry if I appear to be nit picking, but it is not the same thing to say:

God saw what would happen in the future and determined that that would be His plan.

and to say,

God determined what would happen in the future and so that was His plan.

Neither of these is totally right, and neither is totally wrong.

With regard to man's free will, God knows what all men will do, both actual and potential. Yet God chooses to act upon the free will of some men to the degree that He chooses them unto salvation. God would have been righteous if He let us all go to hell, but God is also a merciful and gracious God. Therefore, He chose some of us to believe on Christ.

This is very important – He did not choose us because He knew according to His divine prescience that we would believe anyway, rather we believe because God chose us according to His perfect will and sovereignty.

Unless I read you wrong, and I have done that before, you were saying that God chose us because He foreknew who would be saved. I am saying that God's foreknowledge was not merely prescience election, but sovereign election based on His perfect will, not ours.

As far as God's prescience being a determinative factor, God foreknew that Adam would sin, that some men (most in fact) would never accept His grace in salvation. His determination not to intervene in the rebellious self-will of men and to allow them to choose hell would be a kind of determination based on prescience. God allows men to choose hell because He chooses not to intervene in the lives of many. He would be fair if He chose not to intervene in the lives of ANY. He is merciful, gracious, and loving in that He determines to draw some to Himself in a manner that will effectively guarantee both our salvation and our security. Left to our own will, none of us would have come. It was His grace that drew us. NOR does He draw all men to the same degree.

He is not willing that any should perish. It is not His DESIRE that any should be lost, but in His sovereign plan He chooses to allow most men to continue in their blindness and rebellion to the end that they will be lost. When speaking of the "will of God" it may be helpful to distinguish between His desire and His sovereign plan.

Jesus did not want to go the cross. Yet, that was His plan from eternity past. To speak of God as having desires is to represent the infinite God in anthropomorphic terms, inadequate, to say the least. However, we must recognize that God's sovereign plan may differ from His desires to accomplish His glory.

If we were saying the same thing, sorry for my misunderstanding. Sometimes I do indeed read more into a post than is there, a problem with being OCD analytical. But, please believe me, in spite of my foibles, I do indeed mean well!

 

1Ch 16:10 Glory in His holy name; Let the heart of those who seek the LORD be glad.

1Ch 16:11 Seek the LORD and His strength; Seek His face continually.

1Ch 28:9 "As for you, my son Solomon, know the God of your father, and serve Him with a whole heart and a willing mind; for the LORD searches all hearts, and understands every intent of the thoughts. If you seek Him, He will let you find Him; but if you forsake Him, He will reject you forever.

2Ch 7:14 and My people who are called by My name humble themselves and pray and seek My face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, will forgive their sin and will heal their land.

Psa 9:10 And those who know Your name will put their trust in You, For You, O LORD, have not forsaken those who seek You.


Act 17:26 and He made from one {man} every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined {their} appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation,
Act 17:27 that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;

 

I edited my post to add:


Act 17:26 and He made from one {man} every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined {their} appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation,
Act 17:27 that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;

 

Seems we both do.