Foreknowledge in 1 Peter 1:2

[RunAway]

I know there are groups that say foreknowledge means an awareness of whats going to happen, and there are groups that say it means a predetermined relationship in the knowledge of God....How can John MacArthur and others say it means such and such but others say it means something else?...Which is it? It can only have one meaning right?...I don't know Greek so I can't form an opinion in that way so I think this is a good question...I also know this horse is beat to death but a new thread will give me a chance to throw some stuff in myself...Thanks everyone ....

 

[webdog]

I know there are groups that say foreknowledge means an awareness of whats going to happen, and there are groups that say it means a predetermined relationship in the knowledge of God....How can John MacArthur and others say it means such and such but others say it means something else?...Which is it? It can only have one meaning right?...I don't know Greek so I can't form an opinion in that way so I think this is a good question...I also know this horse is beat to death but a new thread will give me a chance to throw some stuff in myself...Thanks everyone ....

The greek for foreknowledge (proginosko) is used only here and in Acts 2. After reading the passage, it is clear that it is not predetermining, as it is listed along with God's determined plan. It simply means to know beforehand.

Act 2:23 Though He was delivered up according to God's determined plan and foreknowledge, you used lawless people to nail Him to a cross and kill Him.

 

[Jim1999]

Some biblical teachers will have different meanings to the same word. It happens often in theology.

Foreknowledge is an attribute of an eternal God rather than a basis for a decree. In plain English, it is natural for an eternal God to know the beginning to the end of His creation.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[swaimj]

God's knowledge is complete and comprehensive from the end to the beginning. There is nothing that escapes his knowledge or that is beyond his knowledge.

Not only does he know all from beginning to end, he planned it all from beginning to end. For instance, "the very hairs of our head are numbered" and "not a sparrow can fall except he knows it". Note that in the passage about the sparrow falling, the writer says the sparrow falls "according to his will". It is not simply that God knows the sparrow falls, he planned the sparrows fall because that fall is according to his will.

In summary, it is almost impossible to overstate God's sovereignty and his control.

So, how does this fit in? This morning I got up. I put on my black pants. I opened my second drawer and looked at my white socks. I thought a second, then I closed that drawer, opened the third drawer, took out my black socks and put them on. I did this of my own free will. God did not make be choose the black socks nor did he make me put them on.

And yet, God knew what I would do. He has always known. It is not that he made me do it, but because he knows me fully, because he made me, because he planned my path of life, he knows exactly what I will do and brings about my actions even though I act of my own will.

 

[webdog]

Not only does he know all from beginning to end, he planned it all from beginning to end. For instance, "the very hairs of our head are numbered" and "not a sparrow can fall except he knows it". Note that in the passage about the sparrow falling, the writer says the sparrow falls "according to his will". It is not simply that God knows the sparrow falls, he planned the sparrows fall because that fall is according to his will.

I agree with everything but the "planned" part. This would also mean the lustful eye...the lack of grace...the extra donut...were all "planned", too.
According to His will also is in reference to His permissive will (what He allows to happen), not His decretive or determined will.

 

[swaimj]

This would also mean the lustful eye...the lack of grace...the extra donut...were all "planned", too.

If God did not plan these things, was he surprised when they occured?

 

[Salamander]

Nothing takes God by surprise, but everything that happens is not according to His will.

It doesn't make sense for everything to be according to God's will in that we ask for the will of God, meaning that somethings are contrary to His will.

Rocket Science 101.

 

[webdog]

If God did not plan these things, was he surprised when they occured?

No. Does He "plan" the sin you commit?

 

[webdog]

Nothing takes God by surprise, but everything that happens is not according to His will.

It doesn't make sense for everything to be according to God's will in that we ask for the will of God, meaning that somethings are contrary to His will.

Rocket Science 101.

Define "according to His will". Everything that happens God allows, else He is not omnipotent.

 

[swaimj]

No. Does He "plan" the sin you commit?

My sin is not a part of his moral will, else it would not be sin. But, my sin is a part of his sovereign plan.

Jesus' death, the greatest sin ever committed, was planned by God. That is the very thing that I Peter 2:1 is saying.

If you say that God knows what will happen (forknowledge) but does not plan what will happen, then God is not in control and He is not sovereign.

 

[webdog]

My sin is not a part of his moral will, else it would not be sin. But, my sin is a part of his sovereign plan.

Jesus' death, the greatest sin ever committed, was planned by God. That is the very thing that I Peter 2:1 is saying.

If you say that God knows what will happen (forknowledge) but does not plan what will happen, then God is not in control and He is not sovereign.

You didn't really answer the question straightforward. According to your last line, since God knew, and is in control, he planned our sin...correct?

God is sovereign regardless of whether He plans something. He is also sovereign by allowing something He didn't determine.

 

[swaimj]

Webdog, I said

...my sin is a part of his sovereign plan.

How can I be more clear than that.

I have two scriptural concepts that work in favor of what I am arguing. One, the scriptures clearly teach that God plans everything that happens down to the most intricate detail (the sparrow falls according to his will). It is not that God plans the big things and lets little things run their course. He plans it all.

Second, the scriptures clearly teach the the greatest sin ever committed was planned by God. Jesus death was planned in detail by God and every aspect of it (details like the donkey that Jesus rode into Jerusalem) was inevitable.

Do you object or disagree with either of these claims I am making? If so, please state your disagreement

 

[webdog]

How can I be more clear than that.

By a yes or a no

I have two scriptural concepts that work in favor of what I am arguing. One, the scriptures clearly teach that God plans everything that happens down to the most intricate detail (the sparrow falls according to his will).

That Scripture doesn't say He "planned" for the sparrow to fall, but the spararow did so according to His will (permissive).

It is not that God plans the big things and lets little things run their course. He plans it all.

Then God plans rapes, abortions and every sin committed, too. He is no different than satan, and satan is only acting as an agent in God's "plan". I don't believe that.

Second, the scriptures clearly teach the the greatest sin ever committed was planned by God. Jesus death was planned in detail by God and every aspect of it (details like the donkey that Jesus rode into Jerusalem) was inevitable.

Prophecy doesn't equate to planning. I believe God to be truly omnipresent, meaning He exists in all aspects of time, past present and future all at once. I'm not comfortable stating that the biggest sin commited was "planned" as some event in the past to be carried out in the future. Since God exists in both points, it is something our minds cannot understand, and we do God great injustice to state He plans the sin we commit. That is blasphemy, imo.

 

[Jim1999]

I think there is a huge difference between planning all events, knowing all events beforehand, and allowing all events to unfold in His determinative and permissive will, both under his absolute sovereignty.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[swaimj]

That Scripture doesn't say He "planned" for the sparrow to fall, but the spararow did so according to His will (permissive).

Webdog, when you see the phrase "according to his will" how do you determine whether what is happening is permissive or decretive?

Then God plans rapes, abortions and every sin committed, too. He is no different than satan, and satan is only acting as an agent in God's "plan". I don't believe that.

Then the alternative is that he does not plan it and such events take him by surprise. I don't believe that, and frankly, I don't think you do either. However, it leaves me wondering what your alternative is.

I explained earlier that, when I pick out my socks, I perform this action freely and without coercion. Yet, God knows which I will pick and he causes it. He causes it through secondary means, i.e. what is in my heart, what is in my nature, and the influences in my life (that would be my wife who has taught me not to wear white socks with black pants and black shoes. My decision would have been quite different a few years ago). Because God knows me and because he made me, he knows what I will do. In the same way, God knows what is in the sinners heart when he sins and he knows what is in his nature, he knows him intricately, and he knows the influences in the sinners life. Because God knows all of these things; because he knows the sinner intricately, he knows exactly what the sinner will do and because he creates the heart and brings about the circumstances, he causes, through indirect means, the sin to be committed.

Webdog, the only alternatives that I can think of to this result in a God who is not sovereign. Please, if you disagree, don't just say I am wrong and don't try to slime me with blasphemy, tell us your alternative explanation.

I'm not comfortable stating that the biggest sin commited was "planned" as some event in the past to be carried out in the future.

Webdog, that is exactly what I Peter teaches. God brought abou the death of Jesus in all it's detail by his "determinate counsel".

 

[swaimj]

and allowing all events to unfold in His determinative and permissive will, both under his absolute sovereignty.

Jim, I saw your post after I finished posting my last reply to Webdog. I think what I am describing is probably summarized by this part of your statement. In other words, I think we agree.

 

[Jim1999]

Didn't Jesus Himself pray about His crucifixon: "If it be possible..........IF IT BE POSSIBLE.........let this cross pass from me."

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Marcia]

Isn't there such a thing as God's permissive will and his intended will (I may have the terms wrong)?

God allows things for His purposes (and of course foresees them, unless you are on Open Theist) but He is not causing them directly.

 

[swaimj]

Yes, he did. Not sure I understand your point here. It was not possible for Jesus to avoid the cross (that is what I take the cup to refer to). Because the cross was a part of God's determinate counsel and because the lamb was slain before the foundation of the world, Jesus' death had to take place within the bounds of time just as God planned it.

Even Judas had to betray Christ as God planned that he would. And yet, Judas freely chose to betray Jesus. If anyone should have known better and could have chosen differently, it was Judas.

 

[swaimj]

God allows things for His purposes (and of course foresees them, unless you are on Open Theist) but He is not causing them directly.

Yes. When I speak of God using his knowledge of my heart, my motivations, by influences, and my circumstances to bring about an action in me, I am describing secondary causes.

Marcia, it has been a while since I read Norman Geisler's Chosen But Free but I think I am tracking pretty closely with what he argues in these matters. There. Bringing him up and that book should open a big can of worms!