Foreknowledge or Foresight?

Paul, would you please show me where I have said that a rebellious man can never choose God? I know I was rebellious, and I chose Him...

Meanwhile, whatever, a choice of one thing is not a choice.

 

Helen, would you please show me where I have said that we are allowed to choose from only one thing? The fact that we all choose the same thing does not mean that the one thing was the only option.

 

Helen, would you please show me where I have said that we are allowed to choose from only one thing? The fact that we all choose the same thing does not mean that the one thing was the only option. </font>[/QUOTE] Does that mean if I put only a ham sandwich in front of you and tell you to choose turkey, I have given you a choice?

 

Helen, would you please show me where I have said that we are allowed to choose from only one thing? The fact that we all choose the same thing does not mean that the one thing was the only option. </font>[/QUOTE] Does that mean if I put only a ham sandwich in front of you and tell you to choose turkey, I have given you a choice? </font>[/QUOTE]webdog, would you please show me where I have said that we are allowed to choose from only one thing? The fact that we all choose a ham sandwich does not mean that a turkey sandwich was not placed before us.

 

Helen, would you please show me where I have said that we are allowed to choose from only one thing? The fact that we all choose the same thing does not mean that the one thing was the only option. </font>[/QUOTE] Does that mean if I put only a ham sandwich in front of you and tell you to choose turkey, I have given you a choice? </font>[/QUOTE]webdog, would you please show me where I have said that we are allowed to choose from only one thing? The fact that we all choose a ham sandwich does not mean that a turkey sandwich was not placed before us. </font>[/QUOTE]"Calvinists claim that we all choose sin, unless and until God changes us"
If we all choose to only sin, this means we bypassed the choice of not sinning, correct? If not, it's a non choice.

 

The choice is life or death, Christ or sin. The fact that by nature we all choose sin does not mean that Christ was not offered. That would be like saying that because I ordered the ham sandwich then a turkey sandwich was not really on the menu.

 

Attention All Arminians:

Calvinists do not believe that a choice is not given. We believe the choice of eternal life through belief in Jesus Christ is out there for people just as much as the choice of eternal death through rejection of Jesus Christ.

We believe that because we are born with a sin nature, we will look at those two choices and choose to reject.

We will look at the menu that has a ham sandwich and a turkey sandwich and everyone will choose the ham sandwich.

 

Define surrender.

 

I don't think of myself as arminian or calvinist.I think of myself as a biblicist.

 

I think of myself as a biblicist too. Most Christians do.

 

But POB , your beliefs are Arminian whether you think so or not . The Remonstrants are alive and well in 2006 as they were in 1610 , 1618-19 . It is just that your notions are more mainstream now and not regarded as error as in better, more biblically oriented times .

 

Anybody who is not a 6 point calvinist is arminian according to 6 point calvinist.Since they are in charge of everything they get to tell everybody who they are.

 

Again define "surrender".

 

Excellent rebuttal. That is a great way to expose the error in the argument.

 

I really shouldn't go with this analogy because I just finished a ham sandwich (really). But can you imagine a restaurant where the waiter comes to you and says:

"I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you both turkey sandwiches and ham sandwiches. Now choose turkey because it is better for you."

That would tell me there's more to this "choice" thing than what appears on the menu.

 

So Bill and Helen how do you explain these verse which clearly say GOD CHOOSE us not that we choose him? the word chosen means to SELECT-PICK-ELECT! is there not one person who can explain these verses away? John 6:9 "NNE COMES TO ME UNLESS THE FATHER DRAWS HIM"

DEUTURONOMY 7:6, "For you are a holy people to the Lord your God, the Lord your God has CHOSEN you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth." Israel was elect.


MATTHEW 24: 22, "Unless those days be cut short, no life would have been saved. , But for the sake of the ELECT, THE CHOSEN, those days shall be cut short." Who are the elect? The believers. Verse 24, "False Christs, false prophets will arise, will show great signs and wonders so as to mislead if possible even the ELECT, THE CHOSEN, the believers." It is a term for believers, for Christians verse
31, "When He sends forth His angels with a great trumpet at the Second Coming, they will gather together HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other."

LUKE 18:7 says, "Now shall not God bring about justice for HIS ELECT who cry to Him day and night and will He delay long over them?"

ROMANS 8:33 "Who shall bring a charge against GOD'S ELECT?"

COLOSSIANS 3:12, "And so as those who have been ELECT OF GOD, CHOSEN OF GOD, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion," and so forth. You've been CHOSEN OF GOD to be holy and beloved. He determined to set His love on you and me for no reason of ours at all, but strictly of His own free choice. The elect of God, that's who we are.

2 TIMOTHY 2:10, "For this reason, Paul says, I endure all things in my ministry for the sake of those who are CHOSEN that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus." I am doing my evangelistic ministry to bring the gospel to the ELECT...the chosen. Titus, when Paul writes that letter he couldn't say it anymore straight-forward. "Paul, a bond servant of God and an Apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those CHOSEN OF GOD."

2 JOHN, describes the church as the chosen lady, the elect lady, 2 John 1; 2 John 13, the children of your CHOSEN sister greet you. Two churches, both elect.

PETER says, "You are a CHOSEN race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession." You are a chosen race. You are a Christian because you are chosen to be one by God.

ACTS 15:14, "Simeon, or Peter, has related how...this is the Council of Jerusalem...how God first concerned Himself about taking from among the Gentiles a PEOPLE FOR HIS NAME." God's whole plan is to take out a people, to choose a people.

MATTHEW chapter 20 You have a parable here, the Kingdom of Heaven, like a land owner, went out in the morning to hire labors for his vineyard. He agreed with the laborers for a denarius, he sent them into his vineyard. He went out the third hour, saw others standing idle in the marketplace, went through the process, hired them....hired them...hired them...hired them. Selected them, the whole parable all the way down to the bottom, he picked out who he wanted and he rewarded them with eternal life, that's the essence of the parable. Very simple. He selected them. Called them into his service. Sent them out to serve. Rewarded them fairly, faithfully, generously. That is a picture of election.

JOHN 15, Jesus said it to His disciples, "You did not choose Me but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should remain that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give it you." You didn't choose Me, I chose you.

JOHN 17:9, He says of Christians, praying to the Father does our Lord, "I ask on their behalf," this is the high priestly prayer of Christ, "I do not ask on behalf of the world but of those whom Thou hast given Me." The Father chose us and gave us to Christ as a love gift, for they are Thine.

ACTS chapter 13: 48, "And when the Gentiles heard this, that is the gospel message, they began rejoicing and glorifying the Word of the Lord and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed." The chosen believed. Those appointed to eternal life believed.

ROMANS 9:14. God is talking about choosing. He says, "Jacob I loved, Esau I hated." God made His choice. Verse 14, "What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God is there? May it never be." Me gennetos, in the Greek, no, no, no. It's...it's not injustice, for He said to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion," which is to say I will do precisely what I want to do. Verse 16, look at this, "So then it, salvation, does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs but on God who has mercy." Sovereign mercy. And somebody in verse 19 says, "Well then how can He find fault, For who will resist his will?

ROMANS 11: 5, "In the same way then as in the case of the prophet Elijah and seven thousand men who didn't bow the knee to Baal, in the same way then there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God's choice." God's choice.

1 CORINTHIANS 1: 9, "God is faithful through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son." Your salvation was a direct work of God. He called you into fellowship with His Son.

EPHESIANS 1:3, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him, before the foundation of the world." When did it happen? When were we chosen? Before we were born. Before anybody was born. Before there was a world we were chosen.

1 THESSALONIANS 1:4. "We give thanks to God always for all of you, making mention of you in our prayer, I look at your life and I see...in verse 3...your work of faith, your labor of love, your steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the presence of our God and Father, knowing, brethren, beloved by God His choice of you."

2 THESSALONIANS 2 :13, "We should always give thanks to God for you, we shouldn't thank you, we should thank God, "Brethren, beloved by the Lord." Isn't that good? "Because God has chosen you from the beginning."

2 TIMOTHY 1:9, "God who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works but according to His own purpose and gace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity.”

2 TIMOTHY 2:10 , Paul says, "In my ministry I endure all things," "For the sake of those whose name has been written from the foundation of the world in the Book of Life of the Lamb who has been slain."

REVELATION 17: 8, "And those who dwell on the earth will wonder whose name has not been written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world." And again we are told in a backhanded way that Christians are those whose names have been written in the Book of Life from beginning, from eternity, from the foundation of the world.

REVELATION 17:14, "These will wage war against the Lamb, that is the host of the Antichrist, and the Lamb will overcome them because He is Lord of Lords and King of Kings and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful." We're the chosen.

REVELATION 20, Final judgment, Great White Throne, "If anyone's name was not found written in the Book of Life he was...what?...thrown in the lake of fire." When were names put in the book? From before the foundation of the earth.

LUKE 4, Jesus in this marvelous synagogue event in Nazareth, opened the book of the prophet Isaiah, stood up in the synagogue, opened the book, read it. This is what He read, verse 18, and here was a prophecy that He was fulfilling right out of Isaiah 61. "The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me because He anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor, He has sent Me to proclaim release to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to set free those who are downtrodden to proclaim the favorable year of the Lord.
-------------------------------------------------

 

Welcome to the Bible club Frenchie . I love those verses ! If one denies them by sppining the texts they are not true lovers of the Word .

 

Yes I have seen some spinning jobs done, but i would have to say poorly done to where nothing made any sense at all. I ended up even more confused

 

You have ignored my question twice.I am assumining that you have reduced this to a "you give me directions and demmand answers and I respond" discussion.Since we have digressed to that point I will leave you to play amongst yourselves.