Foreknowledge

God does not need anything. It is a privilege and responsibility we have as His tools to accomplish His purposes.

 

So, without you tools then God would be helpless?

Hope rsr don't use his closing tool on this one we just debating.

 

Not helpless bob. It is a privilege and responsibility we have. Awesome huh? That He would be willing to use us?

 

Yes for the most part I do.

Here is the coarse of belief as I have experienced it in life

(1) Tongues folks can only talk about tongues
(2) Church of Christ folks can only talk about water baptism
(3) Calvinist only talk about election.

When a non-Calvinist attempts to have a decent conversation of any value they are slammed and slammed and ridiculed and belittled and more. I think you know this.

If a person gets to teach Sunday School that is a Calvinist in a non-Calvinist church it is dishonest on his part to teach, but the person will inevitable start proselytizing. The same is true of those who embrace tongues.

The fringe groups of Christianity instead of being out-front and honest within the churches they attend secretly, (there are exceptions ) weasel in to a class or other position and eventually there is discord and even to the point of church splitting.

I attended a church that drew its pastors form Dallas Seminary. Just prior to me joining the church they ran off a 5 point Calvinist. They hired another Calvinist but I don't think they realized it until later. I loved my pastor and He never pushed Calvinism and He was pastor for a long time and our church grew. But in the end He recommended an other Dallas Grad who was a 5 pointer. The pastor resigned and moved and this assistant pastor was fired.

What I am saying is that the majority of members would not and will not tolerate Calvinism. They may tolerate them if they don't preach it but let them openly push it and the vast majority of time they will be out looking for a job.

I have known enough of them that it turns my stomach because they are arrogant, hateful, and anti evangelism. I see no good in it at all.

Calvinist take the Grace issue and belittle all other Christians faiths accusing them of cheapening Grace. I deplor that. Calvinist twist the meaning and concepts to fit their belief system. Any suggestion that they are doing this meets with hostility by them yet they are free to bad mouth, belittle, call non-calvinist theology a shell and other names.

I think there are those out there that are struggling with this issue and are not settled but once most of them - that I have had the experience of meeting and knowing - are extremely arrogant and high minded. I have no use for that.

 

This goes against everything you advocate. That the "elect" was predestinated from the foundation of the world. Which is it, by the help of His tools or His Predestination?

 

Ok. You think calvinist serve calvin and not God. You say they are lost. There is no longer any need for me to debate you. Good day.

 

God is always in control bob. It is simply that He has ordained the means as well as the result.

 

Foreknew

God foreknew so He also predestined.

Foreknowledge comes first, before predestination.

God foreknew who would believe, so He predestined them to be saved even before the foundation of the world.

The devil tested Jesus with pieces of scripture also, but the way Jesus defeated him was by living on every word that comes from God not just pieces of it. Men and the devil want to feed you just they want you to believe.

God does want all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

If you decide not to come to Jesus you can only blame yourself, you cannot blame God for not chooing because He has when you heard the Gospel of your salvation.

God has set before you life and death so choose Jesus and live.

I am not a free willer, but God has the right to give you a choice.

God did not incline your heart to believe, but gave you a clear choice to believe in Jesus and be saved or not and be condemned

 

If God elected due to foreknowlege of one believing, what about the ones he foreknew would never believe? He still allowed them to come into existence knowing they would spend eternity in hell? What about John 15:16? You did not choose me but I chose you and appointed you....

 

What question did I egnor? I will be glad to answer it. If you will be so kind as to re state just the question then I will be glad to address it.

Omniscience. Why would you question me on Omniscience? Interesting.


God's Omnipresence and Omniscience.
For the choir director. A Psalm of David.
1. O LORD, You have searched me and known {me.}
2. You know when I sit down and when I rise up; You understand my thought from afar.
3. You scrutinize my path and my lying down, And are intimately acquainted with all my ways.
4. Even before there is a word on my tongue, Behold, O LORD, You know it all.
5. You have enclosed me behind and before, And laid Your hand upon me.
6. {Such} knowledge is too wonderful for me; It is {too} high, I cannot attain to it.
7. Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence?
8. If I ascend to heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there.
9. If I take the wings of the dawn, If I dwell in the remotest part of the sea,
10. Even there Your hand will lead me, And Your right hand will lay hold of me.
11. If I say, "Surely the darkness will overwhelm me, And the light around me will be night,"
12. Even the darkness is not dark to You, And the night is as bright as the day. Darkness and light are alike {to You.}
13. For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother's womb.
14. I will give thanks to You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Wonderful are Your works, And my soul knows it very well.
15. My frame was not hidden from You, When I was made in secret, {And} skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth;
16. Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Your book were all written The days that were ordained {for me,} When as yet there was not one of them.
17. How precious also are Your thoughts to me, O God! How vast is the sum of them!
18. If I should count them, they would outnumber the sand. When I awake, I am still with You.
19. O that You would slay the wicked, O God; Depart from me, therefore, men of bloodshed.
20. For they speak against You wickedly, And Your enemies take {Your name} in vain.
21. Do I not hate those who hate You, O LORD? And do I not loathe those who rise up against You?
22. I hate them with the utmost hatred; They have become my enemies.
23. Search me, O God, and know my heart; Try me and know my anxious thoughts;
24. And see if there be any hurtful way in me, And lead me in the everlasting way.

 

What about all those in the furthest reaches of the world, who never get to hear the Gospel? Is it fair that they are lost when they never get to hear about Jesus? I know the answer by the way. I'm just responding to this guy's idea of fairness.

 

I don't think I have said a Calvinist is lost. I personally can not know your Heart or any heart of a Calvinist. I believe they are believing falsely. I truly believe they are absolutely wrong. That is my position. You decide not to debate me, why? Are you the only one allowed to speak against what you believe and everyone else not?

In that you say I say they are lost I am asking you to point out a statement that leads you to believe that or a direct statement that I made to that affect.

 

Post #44 of this thread.

 

Sending out

God is sending us out to reach them, if they are not reached it our fault not God's

 

Keep it in context. Who is He talking to? What is the appointment? And even this I would assert that God's foreknowledge knows that they would respond and they are chosen on that basis. God is choosing everyone in one respect. Those that God calls are the same ones that Jesus calls. Jesus makes the statement to the disciples "come follow me" that is the call that He knew he would do in eternity. Their reaction / response was know in eternity. God knows all actual events and could have been events. He is not suppressed and thus His sovereign will is carried out. This does not violate man's free will. We make free choices everyday. If our free choice hinders the sovereign will God will get in the way. He uses our freedom to accomplish His sovereign. Our freedom never gets in the way of His sovereign will. Because He knew it in eternity and chose us on the basis of our faith does not diminish any thing about Grace or Holiness, It in fact supports it. The view that God picks some of the all goes against Holiness and Character.

I can come up to you and say "sir follow me" and that is not a big deal - you still have to decide to follow or stay. Those chosen have a say in the matter. They can stay in the boat and continue to fish or they get out and follow Jesus. Both are true but not in the Calvinist way. Calvinist understanding is incorrect - which says that those chosen don't have a say, they are made to believe and obey.

Just because Jesus call the disciple to follow (he chose them) in no way means they are made to. God knew who would respond and who would not. Jesus knew they were going to be real believers and exercise faith in Him.

 

Pleasssssssssssssssse!!! You have said it many times.

See if these lines ring a bell.

To me TULIP Philosophy is false Doctrine from Hell.

How sad it is to see them come to the end of their life and find out they are not elected and bust Hell wide open.

....perhaps some will be converted to real Christianity and Biblical Truth.

The god of Tulipitis is not my God and I serve the God of the Bible that is how it is and how I see it.

Do you even read your own post?

 

Did I choose God, no God choose me when I heard the Gospel of my salvation.

When God choose me He gave me a choice to believe in Jesus and be saved or not and be condemned. God is a creator, He is going to create no mater how they turn out, but He has given them a hope through Jesus Christ.

 

Part of this I agree with. But even if we take this view 100%,(and I do not) we still have ones that are not choosen. right?

What is your thoughts "psalms"...I would like to hear them

 

(1) Tulipism to me is a false doctrine - I don't see it as from Heaven
(2) Busting Hell wide open is a jab that if you and all Calvinist are in one place the question would come up "who is elect or not" and the ones not elect would bust hell wide open, and they would if they are not elect.
(3) Yes I truly believe the Philosophical Calvinism is a man made belief system. It is not from the Bible.

Do you see my way of believing the Bible as true? Yes or No

I can't judge you. If you are saved - that is wonderful. Weather or not your salvation is by your way of seeing it or mine is the issue. I am attacking the doctrine not you.

Look at it this way, You have a mom and dad and a wife and lets say 4 kids. Who is elect and not elect. In your view your family is a representative sample of humans. The percentages of saved vs. lost is small vs. large and that is all we have to go on. So, because it is some verses all then if God picked some and not all on the basis of what TULIP teaches then some in your family are condemned to hell weather they like it or not.

As I see it the same can be true of my family, but and a big BUT is that I believe everyone in my family decides for themselves the Heaven and Hell issue. They have all heard the Gospel and they all have been called to believe but not all have accepted the call and perhaps they will or will not.

In Calvinism the lost one/s can't (your view is they can't and God is not going to save them period)

In my view (the correct view) they can if they will and God is not forcing them or making them. Man has a choice in accepting the gift or rejecting it.

 

Not chosen

All men have the right to come to Jesus, but without the message no one can come.

The Holy Spirit is in the words of Jesus without His words we have nothing to follow as the scripture says'

Romans 10:14How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"[Isaiah 52:7 ]

When Paul said to Timothy that God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth, it was a calling to reach out.