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Foreknowledge

revmwc

Well-Known Member
[You keep asserting that if God does not depend on the autonomous cooperation of His creatures to effectuate His desire in them that the only alternative is "randomness." Just because we do not have 100% revelation of God's eternal decree does not mean His decree is "random." We do not have to understand how and why God does what He does to believe that He has a purpose in it. That's what humanism requires. As Christians we do not have to define God by human reasoning to believe Him.

Your view of God just calling certain ones makes it random, God's word supports the fact that God Foreknew, you want to make foreknowing into a mystrious random decree that God had to make it a relationship before He could know our chpoices, then you say no He always knew the choice we would make but that has no bearing on His decision. It is a little like the evolutionist saying the world came about randomingly from notheing instead as we believers say God created the earth and man in an orderly fashion. 1 day at a time and gave us the account showing the creation order on each day.
Paul said God Foreknew us and Predestined us based on that foreknowledge. Seems simple to me that since God knew everyone and everything about then God called us basedon His knowledge of us and that would include knowing what choice we would make concerning Christ. All is based on His plan, His Choice His foreknowledge and independence of us. All is what HE WILLED to do His way. Scripture to me supports that in that whom He forknew he Predestined and called, justifying when we called on Christ for salvation and He will give us a Glorified body someday yet future.
 

AresMan

Active Member
Site Supporter
It seems we differ on the fact that God Foreknew us before time and chose us to be His children. You come close on this statement to what I am saying "In fact, not only did He know that you would call on Him, but it was part of His eternal decree that you would."
I see His decree as coming from His Foreknowledge of the choice He knew I would make.
This is the question that you keep begging without proving. This is the question at hand in the meaning of foreknew in Romans 8:28-30. You keep assuming this and taking this assumption as your argument.

We probably disagree here "Election is manifested outwardly" because Paul makes it very clear there will be those who are saved and never have any works of divine value.
1 Corithians 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

It appears there will be believers who receive nothing but wood, hay and stubble for they donot show forth any sign of being a believer, they don't even have a soul winners crown. In verse 15 If a man's works be burned he shall suffer loss but he himself shall be saved. Nothing outward showing this believers calling yet Paul says they are part of the elect, part of the Body of Christ, Part of the Church and they were Predestinated to be conformed to Christ, called, elected justified all those things. Never served, never did anything for Christ yet saved and in heaven as one of the elect.
I am not arguing any of that. I was answering your assertion of "randomness" and the false idea that people have that election can be separated from the "conversion experience." For the sake of argument, whatever you believe is true of one who is saved, I assert that it is true because God makes it true (monergism). In other words, election is not based on faith, but rather faith is based on election. God does not elect someone because He "looks down the corridors of time" and "sees their faith," but rather they believe because God elected them "according to the kind intention of His will." For those whom God elected according to the mystery of His will, at some point in time, He regenerates them with the effectual working of the Holy Spirit and gives them faith whereby they believe the Gospel (Philippians 1:28-29).
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
So if God is eternal, immutable and Omniscient He knew everyone and everything about them before they existed. Which means He knew the choices they would make and becuse of that foreknowledge He Predestinated us to be conformed to the image of Christ thus that we would have eternal life with Him in Heaven.


That is one way to view foreknowledge and predestination. Robert Picirilli gave a good defense for this argument in Grace, Faith, Free Will. It’s a well written book, and he treats other positions fairly. If this is your view, you may find it an interesting read.


 

revmwc

Well-Known Member
That is one way to view foreknowledge and predestination. Robert Picirilli gave a good defense for this argument in Grace, Faith, Free Will. It’s a well written book, and he treats other positions fairly. If this is your view, you may find it an interesting read.



Who is Robert Picirilli? What is his background and is he solid in the basics?
 

AresMan

Active Member
Site Supporter
Your view of God just calling certain ones makes it random,
No it does not. False dichotomy. His choice is based on His eternal purpose that He has chosen not to reveal to us entirely. This does not make it "random." You are saying that the potter does NOT have the right over the clay to make one vessel for honorable use and another for common use. You are asserting a necessity upon God that He has to create a certain way (creatures with autonomous free will) because of some transcendent moral standard to which God Himself must be accountable. Therefore, you argue that an essential part of God's being--His omniscience--is partly defined by autonomous, ontologically separate entities that create this information ex nihilo. In other words, God did not create man in His image, but God and man create each other in their image (a la process theology).

God's word supports the fact that God Foreknew
And what is the Scriptural definition of each instance of ginwskw and proginwskw grammatically and in context?

you want to make foreknowing into a mystrious random decree that God had to make it a relationship before He could know our chpoices, [sic]
God calls, justifies, sanctifies, and glorifies based on His choice "beforehand" to know ("relationship") the same people. That is what the word means.

then you say no He always knew the choice we would make but that has no bearing on His decision.
The choice we make is a result of God's redemptive chain applied to us. God applies this redemptive chain on us based on His fore-relationshipping us. This is what Romans 8:28-30 means.

It is a little like the evolutionist saying the world came about randomingly from notheing instead as we believers say God created the earth and man in an orderly fashion. 1 day at a time and gave us the account showing the creation order on each day.
No, your position of the mutual independence of God's attributes (His omniscience) on His creation is like arguing that the world came about through knowledge of what man would do, and God had to do it that way because his knowledge of what man would do is part of His being.

Paul said God Foreknew us and Predestined us based on that foreknowledge.
No, He said whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate..." whom, not about whom. Just as Jesus said of some people "I never knew [had a relationship with] you," so it is true that of those that God FOREknew [chose in eternity to have a relationship with], He predestined to conform to the image of His Son. Your assumption that God's redemptive chain is based on information about people (i.e. "foreseen faith") is NOT present in the text. You are begging the question because you are assuming the very thing that you must prove, which is the meaning of the text in the OP.

Seems simple to me that since God knew everyone and everything about then God called us basedon His knowledge of us and that would include knowing what choice we would make concerning Christ.
That is the very thing that you have yet to prove with Scripture. You are simply assuming it. I have argued that the text means otherwise, and all you have argued is your assumption where you are reading into the text something that is not there.

All is based on His plan, His Choice His foreknowledge and independence of us.
Then, why are you arguing that salvation is dependent on a foreseen choice that people make?

All is what HE WILLED to do His way. Scripture to me supports that in that whom He forknew he Predestined and called, justifying when we called on Christ for salvation and He will give us a Glorified body someday yet future.
Yes, whom He foreknew, NOT about whom he foreknew.
 

revmwc

Well-Known Member
No it does not. False dichotomy. His choice is based on His eternal purpose that He has chosen not to reveal to us entirely. This does not make it "random." You are saying that the potter does NOT have the right over the clay to make one vessel for honorable use and another for common use. You are asserting a necessity upon God that He has to create a certain way (creatures with autonomous free will) because of some transcendent moral standard to which God Himself must be accountable. Therefore, you argue that an essential part of God's being--His omniscience--is partly defined by autonomous, ontologically separate entities that create this information ex nihilo. In other words, God did not create man in His image, but God and man create each other in their image (a la process theology).

And what is the Scriptural definition of each instance of ginwskw and proginwskw grammatically and in context?

God calls, justifies, sanctifies, and glorifies based on His choice "beforehand" to know ("relationship") the same people. That is what the word means.

The choice we make is a result of God's redemptive chain applied to us. God applies this redemptive chain on us based on His fore-relationshipping us. This is what Romans 8:28-30 means.

No, your position of the mutual independence of God's attributes (His omniscience) on His creation is like arguing that the world came about through knowledge of what man would do, and God had to do it that way because his knowledge of what man would do is part of His being.

No, He said whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate..." whom, not about whom. Just as Jesus said of some people "I never knew [had a relationship with] you," so it is true that of those that God FOREknew [chose in eternity to have a relationship with], He predestined to conform to the image of His Son. Your assumption that God's redemptive chain is based on information about people (i.e. "foreseen faith") is NOT present in the text. You are begging the question because you are assuming the very thing that you must prove, which is the meaning of the text in the OP.

That is the very thing that you have yet to prove with Scripture. You are simply assuming it. I have argued that the text means otherwise, and all you have argued is your assumption where you are reading into the text something that is not there.

Then, why are you arguing that salvation is dependent on a foreseen choice that people make?

Yes, whom He foreknew, NOT about whom he foreknew.

Now you need to answer what God's purpose is with man when you say according to His etrnal purpose. Since many and I do believe man is here for a specific purpose then God randomly chosing would defeat that purpose. But first let's hear why you believe God created man, what is man's purpose.

God "proginwskw" knew beforehand as the Father who has us Predestined to be His adoptive Children. That is based on His Omnicience in knowing what choice we would make.

God knew he had a relationship with us, knowing us before we were born and in an adoptive relationship of love knowing we were coming, just as adoptive parents wait in anticipation for the birth of the child they love it and have nuturing relationship and have aplace prepared for that child before it arrives.
I have never argued that this is all based on us I have said and continue to say God knew the choice we would make form His knowing us and because He knew us then based on His Omnicience, His immutability all His attributes and His Determined will He Predetermined to make those who would belive His Children. You haven't caught that due to His Forknowledge His Parental relationship with those He Predstined to be in the Form of His dear Son (children) was all accomplished based on That very relationship in His Omnicience and His Determined will.

You seem to have gotten hung up on the whom, it is just like whosoever will may come to Christ. God didn't choose us to come to Christ He knew we would.
 

revmwc

Well-Known Member
Now you need to answer what God's purpose is with man when you say according to His etrnal purpose. Since many and I do believe man is here for a specific purpose then God randomly chosing would defeat that purpose. But first let's hear why you believe God created man, what is man's purpose.

God "proginwskw" knew beforehand as the Father who has us Predestined to be His adoptive Children. That is based on His Omnicience in knowing what choice we would make.

God knew he had a relationship with us, knowing us before we were born and in an adoptive relationship of love knowing we were coming, just as adoptive parents wait in anticipation for the birth of the child they love it and have nuturing relationship and have aplace prepared for that child before it arrives.
I have never argued that this is all based on us I have said and continue to say God knew the choice we would make form His knowing us and because He knew us then based on His Omnicience, His immutability all His attributes and His Determined will He Predetermined to make those who would belive His Children. You haven't caught that due to His Forknowledge His Parental relationship with those He Predstined to be in the Form of His dear Son (children) was all accomplished based on That very relationship in His Omnicience and His Determined will.

You seem to have gotten hung up on the whom, it is just like whosoever will may come to Christ. God didn't choose us to come to Christ He knew we would.

Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

We are children and Hiers of God because we received the spirit of Adoption calling Him Father, that Relationship is set up based on the pre-relationship of God knowing us before the foundation of the world and Predetinating us to the adoption. Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Why were we predestined according to the verse in the OP because of God kowing us before hand and according to the good pleasure of His Will, His determined or Predetermined will which is based on Him having knowledge of us in the relationship of adoption.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Who is Robert Picirilli? What is his background and is he solid in the basics?

Dr. Robert Picirilli was the academic dean and professor of Greek and NT studies at Free Will Baptist College. He holds to Classic Arminianism (Reformation Arminianism).

Yes, he is solid in the basics (depending on what you consider the basics, of course). I do not hold his theological view, but he is articulate and scriptural and he does not misrepresent other positions.

He holds a view closer to James Arminius (total depravity, the sovereignty of God to control all things, God's perfect foreknowledge, salvation by grace through faith and not by works from beginning to end, etc.). If you hold this view, he offers much support for the position. If you don't, he provides an understanding of the position (prevents "straw man" syndrome - which seems to afflict many).

While I don't hold his view, I've read the book several times - its one of my favorite regarding Classical Arminianism.
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Your question is begging the question. I answered what the passage in the OP actually means by defining proginwskw and showing examples in Scripture. The question is NOT "what did God foreknow about" anyone because the verse says "whom he did foreknow" NOT "about whom he did foreknow." Romans 8:28-30 is NOT saying that God foreknew something about people and therefore called them. It says that God foreknew them. This is a term of relationship, NOT of factual knowledge.

God's calling, justification, sanctification, and glorification of these individuals is NOT based on Him having foreknowledge of what they would do, but rather on Him "fore-relationshipping" them according to the kind intention and mystery of His will.

I believe you totally missed my point, and you are reading foreknowledge of facts into these verses.

Where do you get this idea from this verse? It simply says that God chose us "beforehand" for His sanctifying purpose. Nowhere does this put a precondition of factual awareness.

Yup. And the word for foreordained in v.20 is a form of proginwskw as well (as used in v.2), demonstrating that "foreknow" and "foreordain" are somewhat interchangeable. Things that make you go "Hmmm."

You keep making assumptions that beg the question at hand.

Both your posts clearly speak directly to the issue:thumbs::wavey:
 

Forest

New Member
See now you seem to be saying God is not just nor fair because He only chose a certain amount of people to be saved, why did He not choose the others? It seems you are putting God in a little box and God can't work outside the box you choose to have Him because that doesn't fit your belief system. It isn't what you were taught and accepted so it simply can't be true.

God according to what you are saying randomly selected people to be saved why would God chose one sinner over another sinner. God may not have chosen you our me even though we called upon Christ for salvation, if we aren't chosen in the sense you present it, no amount of calling on Christ for salvation will save us why, because we simply weren't chosen.

According to what I see scripture saying God knew us He knew our past our present and our future, there was never a time He didn't know us. Was He surprised when I called on Him for salvation? No He knew I would, was He surprised when you called on Him for salvation, No He knew you would because He Foreknew us. He is all seeing all knowing and He clearly made the provision for man to be saved before the foundation of the world. So when did He not know everything about us?
So, what did God see when he looked down on the children of men? Here is what he saw - They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy, there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Ps 14:2-3. God foreknew that no man would ask him for salvation.
 

Forest

New Member
So if God is eternal, immutable and Omniscient He knew everyone and everything about them before they existed. Which means He knew the choices they would make and becuse of that foreknowledge He Predestinated us to be conformed to the image of Christ thus that we would have eternal life with Him in Heaven.
Now, make that harmonise with Ps 14:2-3 if you can.
 
Now, make that harmonise with Ps 14:2-3 if you can.

Okay, I hope to break this down to its simplest terms, so that you can see what is actually being stated(not being a smart aleck, so please do not take this comment that way, I honestly do not mean to even attempt to belittle you):

Psalm 14

1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.

3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Look closely at what is being said here. It states thay are all gone aside, and all have become filthy. It does not state that they were born "aside" and "filthy", but they became that way. Through their rebellion/unbelief, they made themselves this way, and not born in these conditions.
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Okay, I hope to break this down to its simplest terms, so that you can see what is actually being stated(not being a smart aleck, so please do not take this comment that way, I honestly do not mean to even attempt to belittle you):

Psalm 14

1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.

3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Look closely at what is being said here. It states thay are all gone aside, and all have become filthy. It does not state that they were born "aside" and "filthy", but they became that way. Through their rebellion/unbelief, they made themselves this way, and not born in these conditions.

Willis,
It does not say that they were not born in this condition either....other verses teach that. They were born in this exact condition...it just took awhile for us to notice it.
 

percho

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Maybe, just maybe: (Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.) from a people whom he, God did foreknow of: (Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?)


Everybody kind of sorta from since, well for two or three or four thousand years
know, or kind of know who the Jews are. How? Mainly because of their religion and or customs associated with that religion. Yet way back yonder God said this about all or at least some of these people spoken to.

(Deut 32:26 I said, I would scatter them into corners, I would make the remembrance of them to cease from among men: )

Did that statement ever apply to the Jews who practice the Jewish religion?

Who did God foreknow that the remembrance of has ceased from among men?

Did God foreknow some who were scattered among the nations? Gentiles?

(Jer 3:14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion: ) ----Spoken to the elect of a people who in verse 8 it was said, God had given a bill of divorce.
 

revmwc

Well-Known Member
So, what did God see when he looked down on the children of men? Here is what he saw - They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy, there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Ps 14:2-3. God foreknew that no man would ask him for salvation.
God did know men would not ask so He planned for the Holy Spirit to draw them and He knw who would respond to the drawing of the Holy spirit. We all had to respond to the conviction of the Holy Spirit to come to faith. No man will seek it but they will be drawn as Christ said If I be lifted up I will draw all men to me. He was and does, but not all respond. The Father knew who would and how many would.
 

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
Any linear language used in regards to God, particularly before the very advent OF time is anthropomorphic.
 

revmwc

Well-Known Member
Now, make that harmonise with Ps 14:2-3 if you can.

Psalms 14:

1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

Every unbeliever has made this statement I would venture to guess you may have even said it prior to salvation. If you didn't then you were probaably raised in a Christian Home or saved at an early age. If you didn't do abominable works then you didn't need to be saved, you did no good of intrinsic value before salvation, no one could.

2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned

Since man in born seperated from Spiritual things (i.e. Spiritually dead) then Pslams 14:2 is perfectly correct none understood nor did they seek God. I wasn't seeking God when I was saved. I was only 7 years old but the Holy Spirit came tugging on my hearts door and I called out come into my heart Jesus I want you to save me. I called upon the name of the Loed (Romans 10:13) and was saved. I wasn't looking to nor seeking God but the Spirit came and drew me to Christ.

3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one

No man of his free accord does good, and all have gone astray, out of God's will and way, we are all filthy and yet God knew when He called me that day I would answer the call and He knew it in Eternity past becasue of His omniscience.
That is how everyone is saved, God calls all but not all answer. God told Cain to offer the proper sacrifice, Cain knew God's requirement but he refused to accept what God wanted of him, he resisted the calling.

Romans 13:2 says those who resiseth the Power, ressiseth the ordinances of God and they that resist shall receive damnation. Pretty clear God will draw all but not all will come let's the I out of Tulip. Matthew 22:14 many are called, but few are chosen, why are few chosen? Because through Foreknowledge chose us to be Chidren of God. God knew they would reject and chose those who would accept.
 

Forest

New Member
Okay, I hope to break this down to its simplest terms, so that you can see what is actually being stated(not being a smart aleck, so please do not take this comment that way, I honestly do not mean to even attempt to belittle you):

Psalm 14

1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.

3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Look closely at what is being said here. It states thay are all gone aside, and all have become filthy. It does not state that they were born "aside" and "filthy", but they became that way. Through their rebellion/unbelief, they made themselves this way, and not born in these conditions.
Man is born into this world as a natural being, without any righteousness, Eph 2:2-3. Eph 2:12, That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world.
 

Forest

New Member
God did know men would not ask so He planned for the Holy Spirit to draw them and He knw who would respond to the drawing of the Holy spirit. We all had to respond to the conviction of the Holy Spirit to come to faith. No man will seek it but they will be drawn as Christ said If I be lifted up I will draw all men to me. He was and does, but not all respond. The Father knew who would and how many would.
If God has to "DRAG" them, it doesen't sound like they are responding to him. The word "draw" is interpreted in the Greek to mean "to drag". It is an irristable drawing. God only calls his elect. All that are called are Predestinated, jujstified, and gloryfied, Rom 8:30. If he called all mankind, then all mankind would be predestinated, justified and glorified.
 

Forest

New Member
Psalms 14:

1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

Every unbeliever has made this statement I would venture to guess you may have even said it prior to salvation. If you didn't then you were probaably raised in a Christian Home or saved at an early age. If you didn't do abominable works then you didn't need to be saved, you did no good of intrinsic value before salvation, no one could.

2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned

Since man in born seperated from Spiritual things (i.e. Spiritually dead) then Pslams 14:2 is perfectly correct none understood nor did they seek God. I wasn't seeking God when I was saved. I was only 7 years old but the Holy Spirit came tugging on my hearts door and I called out come into my heart Jesus I want you to save me. I called upon the name of the Loed (Romans 10:13) and was saved. I wasn't looking to nor seeking God but the Spirit came and drew me to Christ.

3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one

No man of his free accord does good, and all have gone astray, out of God's will and way, we are all filthy and yet God knew when He called me that day I would answer the call and He knew it in Eternity past becasue of His omniscience.
That is how everyone is saved, God calls all but not all answer. God told Cain to offer the proper sacrifice, Cain knew God's requirement but he refused to accept what God wanted of him, he resisted the calling.

Romans 13:2 says those who resiseth the Power, ressiseth the ordinances of God and they that resist shall receive damnation. Pretty clear God will draw all but not all will come let's the I out of Tulip. Matthew 22:14 many are called, but few are chosen, why are few chosen? Because through Foreknowledge chose us to be Chidren of God. God knew they would reject and chose those who would accept.
We are all born into this world as natural beings. The natural man will not, and indeed, cannot accept anything that is of a spiritual nature, 1 Cor 2:14. God only calls his elect out of that natural state. All who are called are predestined, justified, and glorified, Rom 8:30. If God calls all mankind, then all mankind would be predestined, justified and glorified.
 
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