Foresight Faith View versus the Corporate View of Election in Baptist life?

[Skandelon]

Sinners cannot receive jesus and be saved in their current 'natural" states!

Not even with the powerful gracious help of the Holy Spirit? Why not? Is the help of the Holy Spirit not helpful or gracious enough?

 

[Winman]

Skan, I completely agree that Romans 9 is speaking corporately, the Jews versus the Gentiles, but foreknowledge is still shown. God chose Jacob because he had faith and desired the promises made to his father Isaac, Esau did not believe the promises and sold his birthright for pottage. Now, I know that Jacob and Esau represent nations (Malachi), but the figure holds true, the descendants of Jacob (not all) generally believed and had faith in the true God, the descendants of Esau did not.

What is one of your favorite verses?

Acts 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

This is foreknowledge, Paul declared that the gospel would go to the Gentiles and they would hear it. This is speaking both corporately and of individuals, because not all Gentiles were willing to hear, only a few out of the many Gentiles hear and believe. So, these Gentiles that will hear is speaking of individuals.

It is similar to when Paul spoke of the true Jews, the seed of Abraham;

Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

The Jews themselves actually held a corporate view like yourself and believed they were all saved simply because the were the descendants of Abraham, but it was only individuals, a few out of the many of Israel who had faith like Abraham who were the chosen or elect.

Both views are shown in scripture, not one.

 

[MorseOp]

The material difference is that, like Calvinism, the foresight faith view presumes an individualized perspective. (i.e. God has chosen a specific individual to be adopted, justified, sanctified, glorified). Where as the 'Corporate View' takes a general perspective (i.e. God has predestined/chosen to adopt, justify, sanctify and glorify who ever believes in Christ regardless of their nationality)

When it says, "...he predestined us to adoption..." You must ask two questions:

1. Who is predestined?
2. What are they predestined to?​

The Calvinists answers:

1. Us = Specific unconditionally chosen individuals
2. To what = become believers and thus adopted.
​

The Corporate Non-Calvinistic answers:

1. Us = Believers
2. To what = Adoption​

I do not agree. Reformed theology teaches that God is calling His Church. While individual election certainly is part of God calling His Church, it is the Church, the bride of Christ, that is the object of God's calling. I do not have time this morning to cite the numerous Reformed authors that hold to this view, but I will be happy to do so this evening if requested.

There are neo-Calvinists that try to separate Calvinism from Reformed theology. Perhaps they buy into an individualistic view of election. But as for Reformed theology the emphasis has always been on the Church.

What your post does not address the "how." Either the individual's salvation is dependent on man's choice or God's calling (which includes the call, regeneration, and faith).

 

[12strings]

Election is not about God looking into the future to see what we will do and then making choices based on what he sees. That is absurd to me. Election is about revelation. God chooses to reveal himself and grant entrance into a covenant relationship to Israel first, and then to all."

Does this not leave you with the question about those other nations who were not included AT FIRST in God's revelation? Durring the OT, God CHOSE to reveal himself to one group of individuals...but not to others...Does this not mean he chose not to reveal the way of salvation to all, but only to a select few?

 

[Skandelon]

Does this not leave you with the question about those other nations who were not included AT FIRST in God's revelation? Durring the OT, God CHOSE to reveal himself to one group of individuals...but not to others...Does this not mean he chose not to reveal the way of salvation to all, but only to a select few?

Great question. I believe Paul addressed this question when he wrote this:

God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished-- he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus. Rom 3:24

All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 2 Cor 5:18

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. Rom 1:18​

This teaches us several key points:
1. God graciously looks over the sin previously committed, until which time he would provide justification for sin.

2. He has always justified on the basis of faith in His revelation.

3. No man has an excuse for unbelief because the revelation of God is very clear and understandable.

 

[Skandelon]

Winman,

I've never denied the foreknowledge of God, I've only denied the application of God looking into the future at an individual's choices as the basis for his Election of the individual. That is not a biblical view of election IMO.

 

[Skandelon]

I do not agree. Reformed theology teaches that God is calling His Church. While individual election certainly is part of God calling His Church, it is the Church, the bride of Christ, that is the object of God's calling. I do not have time this morning to cite the numerous Reformed authors that hold to this view, but I will be happy to do so this evening if requested.

There are neo-Calvinists that try to separate Calvinism from Reformed theology. Perhaps they buy into an individualistic view of election. But as for Reformed theology the emphasis has always been on the Church.

Well that is a step in the right direction. Nevertheless the application of these texts to mean that God has individually chosen to regenerate some so that they will certainly believe, be justified, adopted, etc, is the point I'm addressing and I believe that applies to all Reformed soteriological teachings.

What your post does not address the "how." Either the individual's salvation is dependent on man's choice or God's calling (which includes the call, regeneration, and faith).

False dichotomy - this is not either/or, but both/and. An individual's salvation is dependent on God's calling (corporate invitation sent first to the Jew and then the Gentile) AND the man's response to Christ's appeal for reconciliation (individual responsibility). "Many are called (Jew and Gentiles) but few are chosen (those clothed in righteousness by faith)."

 

[Iconoclast]

Some Lessons About Election for Salvation

1. Election is based on God's foreknowledge (1 Peter 1:2).

2. Election means God planned man's salvation before the creation (Ephesians 1:5,11). It means God, by his foreknowledge, has predestinated the Christian to a glorious future (1 Peter 1:2-4; Romans 8:29-30). It is not who is predestinated, but to what we are predestinated.

3. Election does not mean God arbitrarily chooses who will be saved and who will not be. He has revealed that He wants all men to be saved (2 Peter 3:9).

“The elect are the ‘whosoever wills’; the non-elect are the ‘whosoever wont's.’”...D. L. Moody

This is in direct opposition to the truth of God;

Chapter 3: Of God's Decree
1._____ God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.
( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5 )
2._____ Although God knoweth whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions, yet hath he not decreed anything, because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.
( Acts 15:18; Romans 9:11, 13, 16, 18 )

3._____ By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.
( 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4 )

4.______These angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.
( 2 Timothy 2:19; John 13:18 )

5._____ Those of mankind that are predestinated to life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory, out of his mere free grace and love, without any other thing in the creature as a condition or cause moving him thereunto.
( Ephesians 1:4, 9, 11; Romans 8:30; 2 Timothy 1:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:9; Romans 9:13, 16; Ephesians 2:5, 12 )

6._____ As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so he hath, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto; wherefore they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ, by his Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power through faith unto salvation; neither are any other redeemed by Christ, or effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.
( 1 Peter 1:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 5:9, 10; Romans 8:30; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Peter 1:5; John 10:26; John 17:9; John 6:64 )

7._____ The doctrine of the high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, that men attending the will of God revealed in his Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election; so shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God, and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the gospel.
( 1 Thessalonians 1:4, 5; 2 Peter 1:10; Ephesians 1:6; Romans 11:33; Romans 11:5, 6, 20; Luke 10:20 )

 

[12strings]

Great question. I believe Paul addressed this question when he wrote this:

God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished-- he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus. Rom 3:24

All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 2 Cor 5:18

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. Rom 1:18​

This teaches us several key points:
1. God graciously looks over the sin previously committed, until which time he would provide justification for sin.

2. He has always justified on the basis of faith in His revelation.

3. No man has an excuse for unbelief because the revelation of God is very clear and understandable.

1. Are you saying these verses are saying that God graciously looks over the sins of those non-jewish nations in the OT who did not turn to the one true God? If so, This sounds sketchy. If not, how does that statement address those nations to whom God did not reveal himself?

2. True

3. True, but it is generally assumed by both non-cal camps that the big argument against calvinism is that it does not give everyone the same chance to recieve Christ.

If you say God judges these OT nations based on their rejections his natural revelation...but saves those Israelites who respond to his specific revelation, which he withholds from those pagan nations...is this not a "choosing" of God to provide a way of salvation to one group of people, while not revealing the way of salvation to another group?

 

[Skandelon]

1. Are you saying these verses are saying that God graciously looks over the sins of those non-jewish nations in the OT who did not turn to the one true God? If so, This sounds sketchy.

No, I'm saying he over looked all sin until justification was provided. He didn't punish people for sin (breaking the laws), but only for unbelief (not acknowledging God as God).

If not, how does that statement address those nations to whom God did not reveal himself?

He revealed himself to everyone according to Romans 1.

3. True, but it is generally assumed by both non-cal camps that the big argument against calvinism is that it does not give everyone the same chance to recieve Christ.

Calvinism doesn't only 'not give everyone the same "chance" to receive Christ,' it claims God made it such that no one (save the elect) can even understand, accept or respond positively to God's revelations of himself. To me there is no greater excuse for unbelievers than the one Calvinists propose. What greater excuse does an unbeliever have than, "God didn't really love me, or provide what I needed, or give me understanding, or give me opportunity to come." ???

If you say God judges these OT nations based on their rejections his natural revelation...but saves those Israelites who respond to his specific revelation, which he withholds from those pagan nations...is this not a "choosing" of God to provide a way of salvation to one group of people, while not revealing the way of salvation to another group?

Both Jews and non-Jews have always had sufficient revelation for believing in God. Only Israel had sufficient revelation for entering covenant with Him (circumcision, law, etc), but Paul is now declaring that this has NEVER been the path for attaining true righteousness and true relationship with God. In fact, no one is righteous according to the law and thus no one has ever attained righteousness through the law.

20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.21 But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.
​

All people, of all nations, are guilty according to the law. And no one, even the most law biding Jews, have attained righteousness through observance of the law. HOWEVER, anyone (from any nation), who has had the faith even the size of mustard seed, has attained righteousness by God's gracious provision through Christ's atoning work. So, for example, Rahab's simple fear of the Israelite God which lead her to hide the spies was credited to her account as righteousness. She was a sinner, she didn't obey the laws, but she wasn't punished for those sins. Her sins were overlooked. Instead, God, who is gracious in mercy, justified her through the cross and credited her faith as righteousness. In contrast, even Abraham, who did follow the laws, was credit as righteous not because of his being circumcised, but on account of his faith in God.

So, God, because of his great love, takes even the small filthy rage of humble fear in an unseen God and credits it as righteousness, not because the faith itself is worthy of that gift, but on the basis of Christ's worth and provision. That is GRACE!!!

 

[Winman]

Both Jews and non-Jews have always had sufficient revelation for believing in God. Only Israel had sufficient revelation for entering covenant with Him (circumcision, law, etc), but Paul is now declaring that this has NEVER been the path for attaining true righteousness and true relationship with God. In fact, no one is righteous according to the law and thus no one has ever attained righteousness through the law.
20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.21 But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.
All people, of all nations, are guilty according to the law. And no one, even the most law biding Jews, have attained righteousness through observance of the law. HOWEVER, anyone (from any nation), who has had the faith even the size of mustard seed, has attained righteousness by God's gracious provision through Christ's atoning work. So, for example, Rahab's simple fear of the Israelite God which lead her to hide the spies was credited to her account as righteousness. She was a sinner, she didn't obey the laws, but she wasn't punished for those sins. Her sins were overlooked. Instead, God, who is gracious in mercy, justified her through the cross and credited her faith as righteousness. In contrast, even Abraham, who did follow the laws, was credit as righteous not because of his being circumcised, but on account of his faith in God.

So, God, because of his great love, takes even the small filthy rage of humble fear in an unseen God and credits it as righteousness, not because the faith itself is worthy of that gift, but on the basis of Christ's worth and provision. That is GRACE!!!

Interesting view Skan, and I must I admit I have speculated such a thing. There is scripture that does suggest God did not hold the Gentiles accountable for their sins.

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Paul addressing the Athenians told them that they must not think of God as an idol, but the times of this ignorance God "winked at". Now they had full revelation and were commanded to repent and trust in Christ.

It is clear that God holds a person accountable according to their knowledge and revelation received.

Luk 18:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

I will have to do more study, but I had noticed much scripture like this.

 

[Skandelon]

Winman,

I agree, and its not only seen in scripture, but it makes perfect common sense. I have four kids and I would hold my eldest son to an higher standard of accountability than my youngest. Why? Because he knows better.

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

Free-willers and bondage of the will thinkers... What did Jesus actually accomplish at the cross in regards to Satan's defeat? How should we apply it to salvation and man's responsibility?

How r we to understand this biblically?

Also, does the sower and the seed way in on how we should be thinking about election and predestination?

 

[Reformed]

It bas become evident that most people address all the non-Calvinists here as if we all hold to what is commonly referred to as the "Foresight Faith View of Election." (i.e. God looks down the corridors of time to see what individuals will believe in Christ and based on that knowledge, elects only those individuals to be saved.)

However, the most prominent view of election held to by non-Calvinistic Baptists has been what is known as the "Corporate View of Election." (i.e. God has elected or predestined to save whosoever believes in Christ. IOW, God has preplanned what he will do with all those who are in Christ. He has elected to save his Bride, the Church, but he has not predetermined who will or won't enter his Church. Hershel Hobbs, chairman who authored the Baptist Faith and Message uses the analogy of a sheep pen saying that God has predestined what will come of all the sheep in his pen, but hasn't predetermine who will and will not enter by the gate.)

QUESTION: Have you assumed that all non-Calvinists hold to the foresight faith view and thus dismissed every other view out there without giving it fair and objective consideration?

I have not dismissed it, although I think the corporate view of election is more dangerous than the foreseen faith view. The foreseen faith view at least has God looking down the corridor of time to see who chooses Him. The corporate view of election has God limiting his omniscience because it necessarily teaches that God does not know who the Elect are.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Zombie thread closed. Folks, don't resurrect a thread that hasn't been posted to in five (5) years.