Forever?

[HisWitness]

There is nothing in scripture or the language to support that.

If that is so then in Revelation where it says that to God be glory and power aiōn and aiōn; and that God lives aiōn and aiōn; and that God's kingdom shall last aiōn and aiōn, you mean to tell me that only means for the millennium? That it's somehow limited in time?



Just because it is the same greek doesn't mean it has the same purpose. We have the same word in English for a flying rodent and a stick of wood - bat - but that doesn't mean they share the same purpose (though that would make baseball more entertaining). The passage themselves declare the context and no matter how much you wish to twist it, they are not the same.

to God be Glory for the age of the ages-or in any age for that matter sounds perfectly fine to me--the Glory is God's in every age --no matter how many they are

 

[RLBosley]

to God be Glory for the age of the ages-or in any age for that matter sounds perfectly fine to me--the Glory is God's in every age --no matter how many they are

OK. And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for the age of the ages "no matter how many they are"... hmm sounds a lot like eternity to me.

This is stupid. Plainly answer this: Do you believe that all people will eventually at some point be with God in paradise in eternal joy and peace?

 

[HisWitness]

There is nothing in scripture or the language to support that.

If that is so then in Revelation where it says that to God be glory and power aiōn and aiōn; and that God lives aiōn and aiōn; and that God's kingdom shall last aiōn and aiōn, you mean to tell me that only means for the millennium? That it's somehow limited in time?



Just because it is the same greek doesn't mean it has the same purpose. We have the same word in English for a flying rodent and a stick of wood - bat - but that doesn't mean they share the same purpose (though that would make baseball more entertaining). The passage themselves declare the context and no matter how much you wish to twist it, they are not the same.

English has a totally different meaning than Greek---totally different cultures-it is foolish to compare the two--That Fire was the same exact FIRE in both cases--its purpose was NOT to burn up mankind but burn the impurities and to purge them from mankind--NOT to burn man--Man will be saved SO AS BY FIRE--but his evil works and impurities shall be burned--and that is where the Torment comes in for the unbelievers--for it is still Judgment:godisgood:

 

[RLBosley]

English has a totally different meaning than Greek---totally different cultures-it is foolish to compare the two--That Fire was the same exact FIRE in both cases--its purpose was NOT to burn up mankind but burn the impurities and to purge them from mankind--NOT to burn man--Man will be saved SO AS BY FIRE--but his evil works and impurities shall be burned--and that is where the Torment comes in for the unbelievers--for it is still Judgment:godisgood:

"drink of the wine of the wrath of God"..."tormented with fire and brimstone"..."no rest day nor night".

Does that really sound like purification? No the passage plainly says the purpose is torment, punishment, God's retribution against the unrepentant. NOT purification!

Again. Do you believe that all people will eventually at some point be with God in paradise in eternal joy and peace?

 

[HisWitness]

"drink of the wine of the wrath of God"..."tormented with fire and brimstone"..."no rest day nor night".

Does that really sound like purification? No the passage plainly says the purpose is torment, punishment, God's retribution against the unrepentant. NOT purification!

Again. Do you believe that all people will eventually at some point be with God in paradise in eternal joy and peace?

I believe that Christ's atonement accomplished just what God intended it so to do :godisgood::godisgood:

 

[HisWitness]

OK. And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for the age of the ages "no matter how many they are"... hmm sounds a lot like eternity to me.

This is stupid. Plainly answer this: Do you believe that all people will eventually at some point be with God in paradise in eternal joy and peace?

now is that really literal smoke or is it symbolism ?

 

[RLBosley]

I believe that Christ's atonement accomplished just what God intended it so to do :godisgood::godisgood:

Just like the universalist heretic Rob Bell you cannot answer a question directly.:BangHead:

Again, do you believe all people will eventually be with God in a state of perfect eternal peace and joy?

now is that really literal smoke or is it symbolism ?

symbolic obviously - it means fluffy bunnies are being created by the wicked's purification....

 

[HisWitness]

"drink of the wine of the wrath of God"..."tormented with fire and brimstone"..."no rest day nor night".

Does that really sound like purification? No the passage plainly says the purpose is torment, punishment, God's retribution against the unrepentant. NOT purification!

Again. Do you believe that all people will eventually at some point be with God in paradise in eternal joy and peace?

Friend it is quite painful while burning impurities out of something--esp for a man--is also torment to the man and Judgment---BUT the man himself shall suffer great loss--but the Man shall be saved so as by FIRE

 

[RLBosley]

Friend it is quite painful while burning impurities out of something--esp for a man--is also torment to the man and Judgment---BUT the man himself shall suffer great loss--but the Man shall be saved so as by FIRE

Answer the question.

 

[HisWitness]

Just like the universalist heretic Rob Bell you cannot answer a question directly.:BangHead:

Again, do you believe all people will eventually be with God in a state of perfect eternal peace and joy?



symbolic obviously - it means fluffy bunnies are being created by the wicked's purification....

you call me a heretic--because all you are trying to do is just as the scribes did to jesus--they hated the truth of God and went about to destroy it and the one who brought it :godisgood::godisgood::

 

[RLBosley]

you call me a heretic--because all you are trying to do is just as the scribes did to jesus--they hated the truth of God and went about to destroy it and the one who brought it :godisgood::godisgood::

You still haven't answered the question. If you are so sure of your beliefs and confident then you shouldn't be scared to plainly say what you think.

 

[MB]

Originally Posted by HisWitness View Post
you call me a heretic--because all you are trying to do is just as the scribes did to jesus--they hated the truth of God and went about to destroy it and the one who brought it

I've argued with Bosley before and like most of us he has his faults though in this one instance Bosley hit the nail on the head. No where is the definition of "forever" defined as temporary. Generally Catholics stick their noses up in the air and say things like this because they are severely challenged. Are you Catholic?
MB

 

[HisWitness]

I've argued with Bosley before and like most of us he has his faults though in this one instance Bosley hit the nail on the head. No where is the definition of "forever" defined as temporary. Generally Catholics stick their noses up in the air and say things like this because they are severely challenged. Are you Catholic?
MB

just shows your ignorance on the word in the greek--forever should have not been put in our bibles--aion means Age Lasting(short or long duration of time)

iv showed proof of when using that word describing temporal thingsand as the judgment of God against man that indeed it is Age lasting

Only does it mean eternal is when it is implied toward God.

 

[saturneptune]

A couple of points, the first being, if this were a board I was in charge of, everyone in this thread that used the word heretic towards another believer would be gone.

The second point is, in the discussion of the term "forever" everyone seems to be keeping it is the framework of time. In eternity there is no time. While the final outcome is the same, most are making forever sound like a clock ticks on and on. That is not the case. There is no clock.

Our minds cannot really wrap around the concept of eternity, and certainly not when one cannot seperate the element of time.

For the simple minds that cannot get past name calling, when one uses the word heretic towards another person in describing him or her, it means that are devoid of all aspects of a relationship with Jesus Christ. Someone who is in error or disagrees with you on one theological issue is not a heretic.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

A couple of points, the first being, if this were a board I was in charge of, everyone in this thread that used the word heretic towards another believer would be gone.

The second point is, in the discussion of the term "forever" everyone seems to be keeping it is the framework of time. In eternity there is no time. While the final outcome is the same, most are making forever sound like a clock ticks on and on. That is not the case. There is no clock.

Our minds cannot really wrap around the concept of eternity, and certainly not when one cannot seperate the element of time.

For the simple minds that cannot get past name calling, when one uses the word heretic towards another person in describing him or her, it means that are devoid of all aspects of a relationship with Jesus Christ. Someone who is in error or disagrees with you on one theological issue is not a heretic.

:applause:

 

[Amy.G]

For the simple minds that cannot get past name calling, when one uses the word heretic towards another person in describing him or her, it means that are devoid of all aspects of a relationship with Jesus Christ. Someone who is in error or disagrees with you on one theological issue is not a heretic.

So if someone who claims to be a Christian denies the deity of Christ, and I say they're a heretic, then I am "devoid of all aspects of a relationship with Jesus Christ"?

 

[RLBosley]

I've argued with Bosley before and like most of us he has his faults though in this one instance Bosley hit the nail on the head. No where is the definition of "forever" defined as temporary. Generally Catholics stick their noses up in the air and say things like this because they are severely challenged. Are you Catholic?
MB

Thanks for support. I think.

A couple of points, the first being, if this were a board I was in charge of, everyone in this thread that used the word heretic towards another believer would be gone.

The second point is, in the discussion of the term "forever" everyone seems to be keeping it is the framework of time. In eternity there is no time. While the final outcome is the same, most are making forever sound like a clock ticks on and on. That is not the case. There is no clock.

Our minds cannot really wrap around the concept of eternity, and certainly not when one cannot seperate the element of time.

For the simple minds that cannot get past name calling, when one uses the word heretic towards another person in describing him or her, it means that are devoid of all aspects of a relationship with Jesus Christ. Someone who is in error or disagrees with you on one theological issue is not a heretic.

Heresy according to the Merriam-Webster dictionary
1: adherence to a religious opinion contrary to church dogma

Heresy according to CARM (Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry)
A heresy is a deviation from the truth.

Universalism qualifies as both. It is contrary to orthodox Christian theology and is a lie. Thus a universalist is a heretic by definition.

So if someone who claims to be a Christian denies the deity of Christ, and I say they're a heretic, then I am "devoid of all aspects of a relationship with Jesus Christ"?

I think you misunderstood his point (or I did?), I think he is saying that calling someone a heretic means you are saying the individual (the "heretic") is "devoid of all aspects of a relationship with Jesus Christ."

I hope that's what he meant anyway.

 

[Amy.G]

I think you misunderstood his point (or I did?), I think he is saying that calling someone a heretic means you are saying the individual (the "heretic") is "devoid of all aspects of a relationship with Jesus Christ."

I hope that's what he meant anyway.

Oh I see that now. I hope I misread it. If so, my apologies to SN. :flower:

 

[HisWitness]

I saw in another thread on the board that an individual was posting their view of what seems to be the universalism heresy. (Now, I know that word is thrown about with reckless abandon around here, but it properly applies to universalism.)

The logic is that the word for "forever", aiōn, doesn't really mean forever. And that those condemned to the lake of fire "forever" in Revelation, aren't really there forever. Instead they are there for however long they need to be there to be purified and pay for their sins, then they will have mercy (horribly scarred from millennia in fire I suppose?).

Let's see a couple passages:

Matt 6:13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever aiōn Amen.

Jhn 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for everaiōn: but the Son abideth ever.aiōn

Romans 16:27 To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. aiōnAmen.

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever aiōnand everaiōn: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

The first 3 verses above use the word aiōn to describe the never ending rule and authority of God. That is (I should hope) not questioned. So to claim that the word does not mean eternal but instead "age lasting" is a blatant lie. For that to be true then the reign of God must be less than eternal. And eternal life must be less than eternal since:

Rev 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever aiōnand ever. aiōn

If aiōn only means age lasting then our "eternal state" of blessedness with God must only be temporary. God even must be temporary since He "abideth aiōn"

Now yes there are scriptures that use aiōn in an age long or temporary sense, such as:

Luk 20:34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world aiōn marry, and are given in marriage:

And others. However what does the context say about these? The context will clearly show when it is referring to a temporary age and when it refers to an eternal, never-ending state.

This is especially clear in the instances where the scripture says "aiōn and aiōn:

Phl 4:20 Now unto God and our Father be glory for ever aiōn and ever. aiōn Amen.

I Tim 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever aiōn and ever. aiōn Amen.

Rev: 1:16 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever aiōn and ever. aiōn Amen.

and of course the "evil" Revelation 14:11:
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever aiōn and ever:aiōn and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

So are we really to believe that all those instances of aiōn and aiōn mean two temporary ages and NOT mean eternity? Really? Clearly the thought of "age after age" or "ages and ages" is used to express the never-ending eternal state. The same is used for the state of blessedness for the justified as well as the eternal state of punishment for the lost.

Sorry for the long rant but i figured an instance of ACTUAL heresy could be a good diversion from the normal everyday ranting...

Matthew 25:46 Commentary - By Gary Amirault

Does Eternal Punishment have to be as long as Eternal life because the adjective “aionios” is used to describe both punishment and life?

(A short synopsis of this article: The following article proves that “everlasting punishment” in Matthew 25:46 is a MIStranslation in many of the current leading selling English Bible translations including the King James Version, New International Standard Version, New American Standard Version, New Revised Standard Version, the Amplified Bible, The Net Bible, New Century Version, New Living Translation, International Standard Version, English Standard Version as well as many others. There are several translations, however, some of which are listed at the end of this article, which do NOT make this mistake. This correction is crucial in regards to having a proper understanding of the nature and character of God and His role as judge. Just because “aionios” is used to describe life and punishment, does not mean they have to be of the same length and quality any more than a “small” house has to be the same size as a “small” ring because the same adjective is used to describe both. Often adjectives take on some of the value of the word they describe. Therefore, “kolasin aionion” (mistranslated “everlasting punishment”) does not have to be the same length as “zoen aionion” (mistranslated “eternal life”). Aionion should not have been translated “everlasting” because aion and its adjective are clearly time words that have beginnings and endings. And “punishment” for the Greek “kolasin” is too strong a word. Kolasin means “to prune a tree to make it more fruitful.” There is nothing fruitful about eternal damnation in burning flames. If Jesus wanted to imply vindictive punishment, the author of Matthew could have chosen the Greek word “timoria,” but he didn’t – he used a much softer word. Furthermore, Matthew 25:46 does not speak of individual salvation based upon faith in Christ, it speaks of separation of nations based upon how they treated Jesus. And lastly, the context seems to indicate the judgments would be upon the religious leadership of Israel and those who considered themselves righteous, not street sinners, low-life Jews and/or adherents to other religious systems, that is, the Gentiles.)

 

[HisWitness]

I want to point out one of the critical mistakes we, Christians, often make due to faulty or archaic Bible translations. The King James Bible has the disciples ask Jesus privately, "Tell us, when shall these things be and what shall be the sign of Thy coming, and of the end of the world?" (Matthew 24:3; KJV) The word "world" in this passage is the Greek word "aion" which means "age" NOT the physical world. If Jesus meant "world" he would have used the word "cosmos." Because the King James Bible mistranslated this word "aion" several different WRONG ways, it has caused several different doctrinal problems. The Bible in its Greek form actually speaks of at least 5 "ages," NOT two worlds, the world destroyed by water and the world to be destroyed by fire. There are ages (plural) past (Col. 1:26 and Eph. 3:9), the present age in which the writers of the New Testament were living (Luke 20:34,35, Rom. 12:2, Eph. 1:21, Titus 2:12, etc.) and at least two future ages to come (Eph. 2:7). Matthew 24:3 in the King James version does NOT refer to the end of the physical world, it refers to the end of the Jewish "age" which ended at the destruction of the Temple and its priesthood in 70AD. The generation of Jews to which Jesus came was the last generation of Jews born under the Old Covenant which was about to pass away.

The form of "aion" in Matthew 25:46 is an adjective. An adjective is a form of a word indicating possession or pertaining to. For example, hourly pertains to "an hour." Clearly, when one studies Olam and aion, it makes much more sense that it is an indeterminate period of time rather than eternity. Mistranslation of "olam" as "forever" and "everlasting" in the Old Testament has given us contradictions in our modern Bibles. The Mosaic Covenant is described as "everlasting" while the book of Hebrews tells us it is has been abolished. Solomon's Temple was to be "everlasting" yet it is no more. So, too, the Levitical Priesthood which has been replaced by the Melchizedek Priesthood. If these occurrences of "olam" had been translated correctly, we would NOT have these glaring contradictions in our Bibles. So then, Aion is an indeterminate period of time which we do not know the end of until it occurs.

An adjective CANNOT have a greater meaning than the noun from which it is derived. Hourly, for example, cannot pertain to a week, or month, or year. The "ly" indicates it belongs to an "hour." So too with "aionIOS" The "ios" ending tells us that it pertains to "aion" that is, an indeterminate period of TIME.

This amount of time can vary greatly, but it still must remain within the parameters of time. G. Campbell Morgan, as well as other great Bible scholars have told us that the Bible does NOT speak of "eternity" as we use the term. And why should it? It's a history of God's dealings with man here on earth which is in the realm of time and space.

Jesus described "eternal life" thusly:

"And this is eternal (aionian) life (zoen), that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent." (John 17:3)

Isn't it rather strange that MOST of the church believes one can "lose" their "eternal life" and yet they will fight with someone like myself tooth and nail that "aionian" means "eternal." So they fight insisting "aionios" means "eternal," and then turn right around and make this "eternal" life, a kind of life which can be lost! Talk about foolish religious contradictions! This is a major one if I ever saw one!

Another thing to note about adjectives is that they often take on some of their meaning from the noun they are describing. For example, one would NOT expect a "small" ring to be the same size as a "small" house even though the same adjective is used to describe the nouns “ring” and “house.” The adjective “small” gets some of its force from the noun to which it is connected. Why then should "aionian" punishment have to be of the same duration as "aionian" zoen (Divine life)? Aionian may take on a greater force because it is connected to "zoen" which is “God-life.” It is as incorrect to assume that “aionian punishment” must be as long as "aionian zoen" as it is to force a house to become the size as a ring simply because they are both described by the same adjective, “small.” The Bible plainly tells us that God's anger WILL come to an end. “Aionian” punishment is NOT eternal.

"For I will not contend forever, nor will I always be angry; for the spirit would fail before Me, and the souls which I have made." Isaiah 57:16

The word "zoen" in Matthew 25:46 has given the word "aionian" a greater value, so to speak. It is exegetically false to assume the same value must be applied to the word punishment (kolasin) simply because the adjective “aionian” are used with both phrases. As seen from above, certain scriptures makes it abundantly clear, God’s punishment WILL come to an end despite what many church leaders teach. To continuously punish someone infinitely for a crime committed in finite time is not only unjust, it's downright demonic. It totally violates all of our sense of justice. No wonder most people are unwilling to come to Jesus for judgment. They do not see Him nor His Father as righteous judges. The Roman Catholics are taught to go to Mary because Jesus and His Father are too harsh. Mary is used to soften the Father and Son us for us. This is the kind of false teaching which has crept into the church because of this gross misrepresentation of God as a judge Who will give over unbelievers and sinful Christians to unending torture.

In the Greek Septuagint (the Greek version of the Old Testament), in Hab. 3:6, we find “everlasting mountains” and “everlasting God” within the same verse. If we use the same logic and reasoning that traditionalists use in Matt. 25:46, God must not be able to live any longer than mountains on earth. We know that the mountains are NOT everlasting. It is a mistranslation of olam, the Hebrew counterpart of the Greek aion. Both adjectives describe things in time, space, and matter. God is Lord over creation, but He is beyond even that. True eternity is something higher than creation. That the Bible calls Yahweh the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, does NOT preclude the fact that He is also the God of Israel, the God of Judah, or the God of the whole earth. He is all these which fall into the realm of the “everlasting God,” that is, the “God of the ages.” But He is still more than all that.

Below is a list of Scriptures which clearly show that many of our leading selling English translations have mistranslated the Greek word “aion” and its Hebrew counterpart “olam.” Surely the Hebrews and Greeks had something entirely different in mind when using these words than how we understand the English words “eternal,” “everlasting,” “for ever and ever,” etc.:

Sodom's fiery judgment is "eternal" (Jude 7), that is--until--God "will restore the fortunes of Sodom" (Ez.16:53‑55);

Israel's "affliction is incurable" (Jer. 30:12), that is‑‑until‑‑the Lord "will restore health" and heal her wounds (Jer. 30:17);

The sin of Samaria "is incurable" (Mic. 1:9) that is‑‑until‑‑ Lord "will restore ... the fortunes of Samaria." (Ez. 16:53);

Ammon is to become a "wasteland forever" and "rise no more" (Zeph. 2:9, Jer. 25:27) that is‑until‑‑the Lord will "restore the fortunes of the Ammonites" (Jer. 49:6);

An Ammonite or Moabite is forbidden to enter the Lord's congregation "forever", that is‑‑until‑‑the tenth generation (Deut. 23:3):

Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were "everlasting", that is‑‑until‑‑they "were shattered" Hab. 3:6);

The fire for Israel's sin offering (of a ram without blemish) is never to be put out. It shall be ”perpetual" that is‑‑until‑‑Christ, the Lamb of God, dies for our sins. We now have a better covenant established on better promises (Lev. 6:12‑13, Heb. 8:6‑13);

God's waves of wrath roll over Jonah "forever," that is--until-‑the Lord delivers him from the large fish's belly on the third day (Jonah 2:6,10; 1: 17);

Egypt and Elam will "rise no more" (Jer. 25:27)‑‑until‑‑the Lord will "restore the