Forfeiting Salvation versus Losing Salvation - What is the difference?

[ccdnt]

To forfeit salvation is to willingly give it up, so to speak. One decides to stop following Christ. This is not something that happens accidentally. One cannot "lose" salvation as in how someone might lose his car keys.

Now, as has been pointed out, there are some different schools of thought about this. One view is that once someone makes a conscious decision to stop following Christ/turn away from the faith, he is forever in a lost state with no second chance of being saved. Also, a person like this is then believed to have no desire to be saved.

Another view is one where a person may fall back into a life of sin. This is not the same as failing occassionaly and committing sins sometimes. This would be someone that basically keeps on committing sins without asking repentance. This view would not necessarily say that the person sinning is what caused him to no longer be saved. But rather that the sin would be a symptom of the "disease" - of that the person had fallen away from Christ. This view believes that the Bible teaches that one can come back to Christ in this situation.

Then again, some that suscribe to the second view also believe that there is a point one can reach where a person apostatizes to where he is basically in the condition of the first view of being forever lost.

Then there are those that believe that once saved, if one commits a sin (and sometimes these are only certain kinds of sins), he is lost until he repents of that sin.

 

[DHK]

To forfeit salvation is to willingly give it up, so to speak. One decides to stop following Christ. This is not something that happens accidentally. One cannot "lose" salvation as in how someone might lose his car keys.

Why deal in conjectures? When one is born again the Holy Spirit comes and dwells within. He just doesn't stay for a visit and then pops out again, and says too-da-loo, I'll be on my way now.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

One who is born again is permanently indwelt by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit from the day he is saved begins a work of change in his life. He is a new creature. To say that the Holy Spirit will lead into apostasy is a heretical belief IMO, and displays a lack of understanding in the doctrine of salvation.

 

[drfuss]

Brother Bob writes:
"Well if you believe in losing your Salvation, then you could accept Arminius theory or John Wesley's. You could forfeit something after you have it, but I don't believe you can forfeit your Salvation. So the only faith you could forfeit, as I believe, would be the "measure of faith", Unless you believe in a fall."

drfuss: Arminius did not believe a Christian could lose his salvation, only that a Christian could forfeit his salvation. There is a big difference.

Part of this misunderstanding came from Wesley putting out a monthly magazine called the Wesleyan Arminian which indicated a Christain could lose his salvation. Over the years, the OSAS Christians came to believe that Wesley's views represented all non-OSAS Christains including Arminius.

 

[Brother Bob]

drfuss: Arminius did not believe a Christian could lose his salvation, only that a Christian could forfeit his salvation. There is a big difference.

The problem I see with that is the definition of forfeiting is to lose something.

Main Entry: 2forfeit
Function: transitive verb
1 : to lose or lose the right to especially by some error, offense, or crime
2 : to subject to confiscation as a forfeit; also : [SIZE=-1]ABANDON[/SIZE], [SIZE=-1]GIVE UP[/SIZE]

It seems there is really no difference between the two?

 

[ccdnt]

The problem I see with that is the definition of forfeiting is to lose something.

Main Entry: 2forfeit
Function: transitive verb
1 : to lose or lose the right to especially by some error, offense, or crime
2 : to subject to confiscation as a forfeit; also : [SIZE=-1]ABANDON[/SIZE], [SIZE=-1]GIVE UP[/SIZE]

It seems there is really no difference between the two?

Once a person forfeits his salvation, then he no longer has it. I guess then it could be said that he lost it, but he lost it because he willingly gave it up (I see in the definitions you provided, "give up" is listed; one must willingly give something up). I take the difference to be "accidental" loss versus willingly walking away from Christ/no longer having faith in Christ, etc. A person cannot accidentally stop having faith in Christ. He does so willingly, just as a person willingly chooses to have faith in Christ.

 

[ccdnt]

Why deal in conjectures? When one is born again the Holy Spirit comes and dwells within. He just doesn't stay for a visit and then pops out again, and says too-da-loo, I'll be on my way now.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

One who is born again is permanently indwelt by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit from the day he is saved begins a work of change in his life. He is a new creature. To say that the Holy Spirit will lead into apostasy is a heretical belief IMO, and displays a lack of understanding in the doctrine of salvation.

I really do not want to debate this here. As I said, there has been plently of that already in the other thread. You are basically saying what has already been said in that thread and if I respond, I will be saying nothing that has not already been said in that other thread.

I will just provide a link to that other thread where I give several verses relevant to this - http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=39153&page=5
(post # 42 in that thread)

Since technically that other thread was dealing with "losing" salvation and not forfeiting salvation, then if you want to start a thread debating whether or not the Bible teaches one can choose to willingly give up his salvation (forfeit), I may participate in it.

 

[J. Jump]

A person cannot accidentally stop having faith in Christ. He does so willingly, just as a person willingly chooses to have faith in Christ.

That is what I said in my original post basically. There is no difference between forfeit and lose. They are one in the same, but the "real" question lies in the meaning of salvation. I going to guess CC that you believe the "salvation" is eternal salvation, so that one can stop believing and give up their eternal salvation. Is that correct?

 

[ccdnt]

That is what I said in my original post basically. There is no difference between forfeit and lose. They are one in the same, but the "real" question lies in the meaning of salvation. I going to guess CC that you believe the "salvation" is eternal salvation, so that one can stop believing and give up their eternal salvation. Is that correct?

I guess that is what I mean. (I must not have read what you said about salvation in your post very well). What I believe is that one that is currently trusting in Christ as his Savior (has faith in Christ to save Him, etc.) is secure in Christ as long as he remains in that relationship with Christ. If he were to die while in Christ, he would die saved with the gift of eternal life. If this person falls away from Christ/stops having faith in Christ/etc. then he would no longer be in that relationship. If he were to die in this state, he would die lost and not have eternal life.

 

[drfuss]

That is what I said in my original post basically. There is no difference between forfeit and lose. They are one in the same, but the "real" question lies in the meaning of salvation. I going to guess CC that you believe the "salvation" is eternal salvation, so that one can stop believing and give up their eternal salvation. Is that correct?

If you recieve a gift, keep it awhile, then decide to give it back, you have forfeited the gift.

If you recieve a gift, keep it awhile, then you lose it (don't know where it is or if you still have it), you have lost the gift. You can get it again by finding it.

Arminius believed a Christian could forfeit his salvation by deciding to stop trusting in Christ.

Wesley believed a Christian could lose his salvation by not forgiving others or not asking forgiveness for known sins or not being remorseful for know sins. Such a Christian can again have his salvation by repenting of his unforgiveness and/or asking forgiveness and being remorseful for his known sins.

Forfeiting salvation involves only a decision.

Losing salvation can involve not forgiving others or asking forgiveness and not being remorseful for known sins.

Sounds like two very different things to me.

 

[JDale]

The word makes it plain that salvation cannot be snatched away, meaning without your consent.
But, apostasy is a turning away from the faith, is it not? I cannot imagine why anyone would turn away from God after having received His glorious gift of salvation, but you can't deny what the word says about it. People do it. Some say maybe they were never saved to begin with, but you can't turn away from something you never had. Right?

I have never read anything in scripture where God forced anyone to love Him or accept His gift of salvation. If we're not forced to accept it, are we forced to keep it? Just a question, don't attack me.

The same people who say God 'keeps' us from turning away also say that He does not 'keep' us from committting certain sins which the Bible makes plain that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom.

Amy G:

:applause: Excellent observations and insights!

JDale

PS -- the Cumberland Plateau is such a beautiful place to live...

 

[JDale]

The only thing you can do is forfeit your Salvation and that is instead of "the Light" you choose darkness. There is no such thing as "lose" your Salvation.

1Pe 1:5Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

If you forfeit a ballgame, you never did play the game but chose not to. Therefore you are considered the loser.

This is simply an inaccurate allegory. Having played baseball in my [distant] past, I've been in [and watched] games where teams have played for 5 or 6 innings and then "forfeited" the game. For any number of reasons, though they started the game, they "turned away" or "turned back," they stopped "playing."

Incidentally, I Peter 1:5 has an often overlooked phrase on which the entire meaning of the passage hangs: "Who are kept by the power of God THROUGH FAITH unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time..."

Whose faith? Faith just to be born again, or CONTINUING in faith? Saying it another way -- was Habakkuk accurate? How about Paul (who said this a few times..." "The just shall LIVE BY FAITH..."

JDale

 

[JDale]

Forfeiting salvation - Arminius believed a Christian could only forfeit his salvation by apostasy, i.e. making a decision to stop trusting Christ as savior.

Losing salvation - John Wesley believed a Christian could lose his salvation by: apostasy, not forgiving others, or not confessing known sins and being remorseful.

Source: The book "Four Views on Eternal Security" written by four theology professors with the four different views.

DrFuss:

I knew Dr. Ashby, who took the RA view best represented by Arminius. The editor of that book, Matt Pinson, is also an acquaintance of mine -- and is RA. This was an excellent book to point out the differences in these two views...

JDale

 

[JDale]

To say that the Holy Spirit will lead into apostasy is a heretical belief IMO, and displays a lack of understanding in the doctrine of salvation.

DHK:

Be extraordinarily careful at slinging around the "heresy" label my brother. You are gonna be stuck with many of us in eternity.

Nowhere do Arminians of ANY persuasion contend -- as you say -- that the Holy SPirit "lead into apostasy." That is a gross misrepresentation of our view, and is quite contrary to Scripture.

The Bible clearly teaches that the HS leads us into ALL truth -- but there are SOME who FAIL to follow. That is not a failure of God, that is a failure of the follower -- if they cease to follow in faith, they APOSTASIZE -- that is ti say, they "fall way."

JDale

 

[Brother Bob]

This is simply an inaccurate allegory. Having played baseball in my [distant] past, I've been in [and watched] games where teams have played for 5 or 6 innings and then "forfeited" the game. For any number of reasons, though they started the game, they "turned away" or "turned back," they stopped "playing."

I stand corrected. I tried to correct it in the next post but guess you didn't see it.

Incidentally, I Peter 1:5 has an often overlooked phrase on which the entire meaning of the passage hangs: "Who are kept by the power of God THROUGH FAITH unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time..."

Whose faith? Faith just to be born again, or CONTINUING in faith? Saying it another way -- was Habakkuk accurate? How about Paul (who said this a few times..." "The just shall LIVE BY FAITH..."

Our faith in Christ Jesus.

The same people who say God 'keeps' us from turning away also say that He does not 'keep' us from committting certain sins which the Bible makes plain that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom.

I am not one who believes Christians can commit any sin the world commits. If you are kept by the Power of God, then that is the strongest power I know of.

 

[JDale]

I am not one who believes Christians can commit any sin the world commits. If you are kept by the Power of God, then that is the strongest power I know of.

I'm not sure I understand Bro Bob -- are you saying that Christians cannot sin? Or, are you saying that the sins Christians commit are somehow different in kind from the sins of those lost in the world?

If so -- are you saying Christians are incapable of, say, commiting adultery? And, if they DO commit adultuery, does that mean they were never really saved?

Please, explain...This doesn't make sense to me...?

JDale

 

[J. Jump]

I guess that is what I mean. (I must not have read what you said about salvation in your post very well). What I believe is that one that is currently trusting in Christ as his Savior (has faith in Christ to save Him, etc.) is secure in Christ as long as he remains in that relationship with Christ. If he were to die while in Christ, he would die saved with the gift of eternal life. If this person falls away from Christ/stops having faith in Christ/etc. then he would no longer be in that relationship. If he were to die in this state, he would die lost and not have eternal life.

Based on this statement you are advocating a man-based, works-based salvation and that is directly opposed to Scripture.

So in order to have a conversation on losing/forfeiting salvation we must be able to be on the same page as to eternal salvation. Eternal salvation is based on the finished work of Christ alone. It has nothing to do with mankind continuing to believe. Eternal salvation, according to Scripture, is a one-time event, not a lifetime process.

 

[J. Jump]

If you recieve a gift, keep it awhile, then decide to give it back, you have forfeited the gift.

If you recieve a gift, keep it awhile, then you lose it (don't know where it is or if you still have it), you have lost the gift. You can get it again by finding it.

Arminius believed a Christian could forfeit his salvation by deciding to stop trusting in Christ.

Wesley believed a Christian could lose his salvation by not forgiving others or not asking forgiveness for known sins or not being remorseful for know sins. Such a Christian can again have his salvation by repenting of his unforgiveness and/or asking forgiveness and being remorseful for his known sins.

Forfeiting salvation involves only a decision.

Losing salvation can involve not forgiving others or asking forgiveness and not being remorseful for known sins.

Sounds like two very different things to me.

Well all you have talked about is a physical anecdote and the beliefs of two men. So based on that I guess it could sound like two very different things to you.

 

[ccdnt]

Based on this statement you are advocating a man-based, works-based salvation and that is directly opposed to Scripture.

I do not consider having faith in Jesus to save me, continuing to believe on Jesus, etc. a work, and I do not believe the Bible teaches such either.

It has nothing to do with mankind continuing to believe. Eternal salvation, according to Scripture, is a one-time event, not a lifetime process.

As I believe has already been adequately shown in that other thread dealing with this, I believe the Bible teaches otherwise. There are passages warning the believer against falling away, passages that say we must remain in Christ, etc. I gave several verses myself that I believe support that position (post #42 in that thread).

Yes, I am well aware that there are those that believe that salvation is a one-time event and I am familiar with the arguments put forth to support this view. I do not believe that the Bible supports this view, however.

 

[Brother Bob]

If so -- are you saying Christians are incapable of, say, commiting adultery? And, if they DO commit adultuery, does that mean they were never really saved?

Please, explain...This doesn't make sense to me...?

They were either never saved or if they have tasted of the good fruits of the Lord, and if they should fall, to renew them unto repentance again is impossible. (Let me clarify that I don't know anyone who went that far, but God does if there are any.)
1 Cor 6
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

2Cr 12:9And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

I don't just believe we are saved by Grace through Faith, but that the Grace continues with us, to keep us from such acts as Adultery, homosexuality etc.
I don't believe the children of God walk in darkness, but in the light and have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit which leads and guides them.

I believe God would go so far as to take our lives, before He would allow us to walk the life of Whoredom again.

2Tim. 1:
13: Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
14: That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us.

 

[J. Jump]

I do not consider having faith in Jesus to save me, continuing to believe on Jesus, etc. a work, and I do not believe the Bible teaches such either.

CC no offense meant at all, but you can "believe" that until the cows come home, but it doesn't make it so. The Bible clearly teaches that we are to believe in the finished works of Christ. If we are to "continue" to believe until death then we are in fact not trusting Christ, but trusting ourself. That's just simply the matter of your statement. You can deny it as you have, but just because you deny it doesn't make the issue go away.

Again Scripture says eternal salvation is a one-time event, not a life long process. And there is simply no way of getting around that.

As I believe has already been adequately shown in that other thread dealing with this, I believe the Bible teaches otherwise.

Well I haven't kept up with the other thread and for times sake please enlighten me as to the Scripture that says eternal salvation is a life long process and then please show me how that is going to coincide with Acts 16:30-31 which says it is a one-time event along with Ephesians 2:8-9.

There are passages warning the believer against falling away, passages that say we must remain in Christ, etc. I gave several verses myself that I believe support that position (post #42 in that thread).

You are exactly right in that you say there are verses that warn believers. But this is the point that I have been trying to make from the beginning. You are associating these passages with eternal salvation, but contextually these passages have nothing to do with eternal salvation.

That's why I said from the beginning the question doesn't lie in if someone can lose/forfeit their salvation, but the "real" question is what "salvation" can one forfeit or lose.

Yes, I am well aware that there are those that believe that salvation is a one-time event and I am familiar with the arguments put forth to support this view. I do not believe that the Bible supports this view, however.

Well again I look forward to how you are going to rework Acts 16:30-31 and Ephesians 2:8-9, because those two verses alone prove your theory to be incorrect.