Forfeiting Salvation versus Losing Salvation - What is the difference?

[JDale]

Based on this statement you are advocating a man-based, works-based salvation and that is directly opposed to Scripture.

So in order to have a conversation on losing/forfeiting salvation we must be able to be on the same page as to eternal salvation. Eternal salvation is based on the finished work of Christ alone. It has nothing to do with mankind continuing to believe. Eternal salvation, according to Scripture, is a one-time event, not a lifetime process.

I would not have expressed my belief in the possibility of apostasy in the same manner that the person you responded to did. That being said, our continuing participation in the grace of God and the eternal life offered in Christ most certainly hinges on our "abiding in Christ" (John 15), on our "continu[ing] in the Faith" (Colossians 1), on our allowing "that which you have heard from the beginning to remain in you...." 1 John 2), on our "not neglect[ing] so great a salvation..." (Hebrews 2), on our keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith" (I Timothy 1)....

To "lose" something is to absent-mindedly misplace it. I do not accept that we can absent-mindedly forget about faith, about Jesus, or about salvation. Scripture CLEARLY bears out, however, that one can purposely REJECT (or forfeit) faith -- can (and have) purposely "trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?" (Hebrews 10:29).

So, are you saying that we can't have a conversation about the POSSIBILITY of forfeiting faith [apostasy] unless I agree with you that it cannot be forfeited??

JDale

 

[JDale]

They were either never saved or if they have tasted of the good fruits of the Lord, and if they should fall, to renew them unto repentance again is impossible. (Let me clarify that I don't know anyone who went that far, but God does if there are any.)
1 Cor 6
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

2Cr 12:9And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

I don't just believe we are saved by Grace through Faith, but that the Grace continues with us, to keep us from such acts as Adultery, homosexuality etc.
I don't believe the children of God walk in darkness, but in the light and have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit which leads and guides them.

I believe God would go so far as to take our lives, before He would allow us to walk the life of Whoredom again.

2Tim. 1:
13: Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
14: That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us.

Then why on earth would God include I John 1:8-10 in Scripture??

"If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us."

Please understand that I don't advocate sin in the life of the believer -- nor do I believe it can or should typify the lifestyle of a disciple of Jesus -- but to deny that believers sin...That's not realistic. Nor is it Biblical. If it was true, we would neither need an advocate (other than at the moment of salvation) nor would we NEED His grace to continue!

JDale

 

[Brother Bob]

I understand what you are saying and I don't believe we are free from sin. I just don't believe the children of God can commit the acts of sin that God said will not inherit the Kingdom such as adultery, homosexuality and such.

I know the scripture of John 1:8-10 and believe its talking to the outward man or flesh, but still do not believe it will sin a sin unto death, such as adultery. I would perfer to believe they had never been saved, but either way, I just don't believe that God's children look or do as the world.

There is another scripture just below John 1:8 and we have to be able to rightly divide.
1Jo 3:9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1Jo 5:16If any man see his brother sin a sin [which is] not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

I am not claiming perfection here but always trying and working towards perfection until death with the help of the Holy Ghost and the Grace of God which is able to keep us.

I honestly cannot see myself after committing adultery, going back to the church as if I were a Christian. But I know there are many on here, probably most, who say we can't keep from doing those sins, but I beg to differ.

Believe me, they will eat me alive here in a few minutes, but this is how I believe the Children of God live after being saved and have the indwelling Holy Spirit, and the mind of Christ.

 

[webdog]

Once a child, you cannot lose nor forfeit that.

If you could commit true apostacy, you have more power than God, since you are now the hinge that is keeping your salvation. This is nothing more than works based salvation. In addition, "eternal life" in an oxymoron, as if it can be aposticized away, it was never "eternal life".

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Webdog: Once a child, you cannot lose nor forfeit that.

If you could commit true apostacy, you have more power than God, since you are now the hinge that is keeping your salvation. This is nothing more than works based salvation. In addition, "eternal life" in an oxymoron, as if it can be aposticized away, it was never "eternal life".

HP: Where does Scripture say that once a child you cannot forfeit or lose that standing?

To have a 'hope of eternal life' in fact does indicate that one can move away from the relationship that one had in the beginning of their salvation experience. The following passage indicates clearly the possibility of a change from a hope of eternal life to a forfeited relationship. That two letter word 'IF' is a word to consider carefully.

Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard,



Possibly the Scriptural words to use, in place of forfeit, is to be 'moved away from ones initial hope of eternal life.'

 

[J. Jump]

That being said, our continuing participation in the grace of God and the eternal life offered in Christ most certainly hinges on our "abiding in Christ" (John 15), on our "continu[ing] in the Faith" (Colossians 1), on our allowing "that which you have heard from the beginning to remain in you...." 1 John 2), on our "not neglect[ing] so great a salvation..." (Hebrews 2), on our keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith" (I Timothy 1)....

JD thank you for your comments and your Scripture. You have further proven my point for me. See the question again is not about whether someone can lose or forfeit their salvation. Call it what you want to. The question is what "salvation" can they lose and forfeit.

And what you have done is aligned yourself with the understand that one can purposefully reject Jesus as Savior. The problem is you have given Scripture that doesn't prove your point. You have given Scripture that doesn't have anything to do with eternal salvation.

Eternal salvation is believing in the substitutionary death and shed blood (because that is what is required by God - death and shed blood) of Jesus, the Lamb of God, on my behalf a sinner. If I believe that the Bible tells me I am saved. Not that I may be saved, or that I will be saved in the future if I continue to believe, but I am 100% no doubt about it saved. See Acts 16:30-31 and Ephesians 2:8-9. There's just no getting around those two versus of Scripture, because the language that is used there doesn't allow any other interpretation.

So what we have here is a misunderstanding of what Scripture is teaching about eternal salvation. Ephesians 2:8-9 says that salvation comes from God not the works of man. However in your argument you say that I must abibe in Christ. I must not neglect . . . I must continue in the faith . . . I must keep the faith . . . see the trend "I must."

Eternal salvation is not based on anything other than I must believe one time (Acts 16:30-31). Anything outside of that is works. Now folks can say it's not works. They can want it not to be works. They can say that salvation is of Christ, and Christ alone, but if anything enters the equation of eternal salvation other than faith/believe one time then that is a work.

So, are you saying that we can't have a conversation about the POSSIBILITY of forfeiting faith [apostasy] unless I agree with you that it cannot be forfeited??

Great question, and no that's not what I meant. What I meant was that its going to be awfully hard to have a converstation about losing salvation, if we can't even agree on what salvation is Hope that better clarifies what I was trying to say.

By the way I would just like to add that while Webdog and I don't agree on many things I would wholeheartedly agree with this statement here:

Once a child, you cannot lose nor forfeit that.

There is nowhere in Scripture, at least that I am aware of, that says a child can become a non-entity again, or anything that even remotely suggests that.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

JJump: You have given Scripture that doesn't have anything to do with eternal salvation.

HP: If eternal salvation was a fly on your nose you would not see it. Notice I did not say ‘could not see it’ but ‘would not see it.’ I have heard of selective hearing before, but what the list is witnessing is selective seeing.

 

[webdog]

HP: Where does Scripture say that once a child you cannot forfeit or lose that standing?

How in the world can you lose the standing of being your parents child?!? Once you are a child you cannot undo that! This is common sense!

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Webdog: How in the world can you lose the standing of being your parents child?!? Once you are a child you cannot undo that! This is common sense!

HP: The relationship sustained by a parent to a child is physical and has nothing to do whatsoever with any obedience, disobedience or the acceptance or rejecting of being a child of the parent. The relationship that is sustained between a parent and a child of their physical DNA is that of necessity.

Are you prepared to say that the relationship that exists between a believer and God has nothing whatsoever to do with the acceptance or rejecting of salvations offer or sin or obedience? Are you prepared to state that the relationship that is sustained between God and the believer is one of like kind, i.e., of necessity?

 

[Oasis]

DHK

Originally Posted by ccdnt
quote:To forfeit salvation is to willingly give it up, so to speak. One decides to stop following Christ. This is not something that happens accidentally. One cannot "lose" salvation as in how someone might lose his car keys.:quote


DHK-Why deal in conjectures? When one is born again the Holy Spirit comes and dwells within. He just doesn't stay for a visit and then pops out again, and says too-da-loo, I'll be on my way now.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

One who is born again is permanently indwelt by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit from the day he is saved begins a work of change in his life. He is a new creature. To say that the Holy Spirit will lead into apostasy is a heretical belief IMO, and displays a lack of understanding in the doctrine of salvation.

Good point DHK.
Man is not more powerful than the Holy Spirit and if the Holy Spirit could be "Kicked out" he would not be perfect.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: To say that the Holy Spirit will lead into apostasy is a heretical belief IMO

HP: This has to win the “ Worst Implication Award of the Year.” What a total mischaracterization of ones beliefs. Where is Tom Butler when we need him.

Certainly the Holy Spirit does not lead one into apostasy! There is not a Christian alive that would hold to such nonsense. Speaking of putting up a paper duck to shoot at!!

Just the same, neither does the Holy Spirit derive, force or coerce. The Holy Spirit leads and we must willingly follow. We can reject and spurn the leading of the Holy Spirit by choosing to allow our selfishness to influence the formation of our intents. Scripture is clear. We can indeed resist the Holy Spirit and in doing so run the danger of Him withdrawing His Spirit from us.

 

[J. Jump]

Quote:
JJump: You have given Scripture that doesn't have anything to do with eternal salvation.


HP: If eternal salvation was a fly on your nose you would not see it. Notice I did not say ‘could not see it’ but ‘would not see it.’ I have heard of selective hearing before, but what the list is witnessing is selective seeing.

HP instead of making wild accusations, why don't you just prove my statement incorrect with Scripture. Take the Scripture that my quote is speaking of and show that it is in fact speaking contextually of eternal salvation. Unless you can do that, your statement is merely a not so very nice "opinion." And we all know about opinions

 

[ccdnt]

J.Jump

None of the verses you cited show that salvation is a one-time event.

Acts 16:30-31
30and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
The Jailer Converted
31They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

(I agree that if one believes on Jesus, he is saved. Other Scripture indicates that one must continue to believe.)

Ephesians 2:8-9
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

(I also agree that we are not saved by works. This Scripture does not say that believing in Christ/abiding in Christ/etc. is a work, however. Nor do I see this taught elsewhere in the Bible.)

CC no offense meant at all, but you can "believe" that until the cows come home, but it doesn't make it so. The Bible clearly teaches that we are to believe in the finished works of Christ. If we are to "continue" to believe until death then we are in fact not trusting Christ, but trusting ourself. That's just simply the matter of your statement. You can deny it as you have, but just because you deny it doesn't make the issue go away.

Again Scripture says eternal salvation is a one-time event, not a life long process. And there is simply no way of getting around that.

I could basically turn everything hear around and say the same thing in support of what I believe…
“…you can “believe” that until the cows come home, but it doesn’t make it so…The Bible clearly teaches that we are to abide in Christ/remain in Christ/continue to believe in Christ…You can deny that this is the case, but it doesn’t make it true…”
“Scripture says that salvation is not a one-time event…etc.”


Since no one answered a question I posed in that other thread, I will give it here:

Those that believe the Bible teaches OSAS believe that those that believe it teaches otherwise are mistaken. Why would anyone want the Bible to not teach OSAS? I would venture a guess that some or most that do not believe in OSAS would like for it to be true (if not for themselves, then for loved ones that they have seen profess to be a Christian, show fruit, then fall away and die in that state). I do not read the Bible and do my best to find that it does not teach OSAS. I read it to find what it does teach about salvation. If I thought that OSAS was what was taught in Scripture, I would proclaim this, teach this, and defend it. However, from all that I have read, I do not see this. I see many warnings in Scripture against falling away. I see conditional statements regarding salvation... (if/then). I understand why people would want OSAS to be the correct teaching, but, for those that believe in OSAS, why would you think people would not want the Bible to teach OSAS?

Here are some of the verses I posted in that other thread (my comments are in brackets). You may try to say that these verses are not dealing with “eternal salvation” but I see the most plain reading of these Scriptures to be dealing with just that.

Luke 8:13 - "Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away - [saying they "believe" implies that these are people who do become believers (Christians) but it does not last since it says they "fall away"].

1 Timothy 4:1 - But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, - [addressing believers (Christians) since these people were obviously in the "faith" as they could not have fell from it otherwise] - paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons

Hebrews 3:12 - Take care, brethren - [again, referring to believers], - that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. - [why warn these people of the possibility of them getting an evil, unbelieving heart and of falling away if it would be impossible for them to do so?]

Hebrews 6:4-6 - 4For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6and then have fallen away - [addressing believers and says that they can fall away], - it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

2 Peter 3:17 - You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness, - [context implies that believers are being addressed - they cannot fall from their own steadfastness unless they are in a position to fall from steadfastness in the first place]

Hebrews 3
1Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling, - [referencing believers] - consider Jesus, the Apostle and High Priest of our confession; 2He was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was in all His house. 3For He has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, by just so much as the builder of the house has more honor than the house. 4For every house is built by someone, but the builder of all things is God.
5Now Moses was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken later;
6but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house--whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.
7Therefore, just as the Holy Spirit says,
"TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
8DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME,
AS IN THE DAY OF TRIAL IN THE WILDERNESS,
9WHERE YOUR FATHERS TRIED Me BY TESTING Me,
AND SAW MY WORKS FOR FORTY YEARS.
10"THEREFORE I WAS ANGRY WITH THIS GENERATION,
AND SAID, 'THEY ALWAYS GO ASTRAY IN THEIR HEART,
AND THEY DID NOT KNOW MY WAYS';
11AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH,
'THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST.'"
12Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. - [this verse is addressing brethren (believers) and says that falling away is a possibility]
13But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called "Today," so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.
14For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end, - [the word, "if", means that it is possible that a believer could not hold fast in which case, as this says, the person will no longer be a partaker of Christ] - 15while it is said,
"TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS, AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME."
16For who provoked Him when they had heard? Indeed, did not all those who came out of Egypt led by Moses?
17And with whom was He angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness?
18And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient?
19So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief . - [this is comparing a Christian’s walk with Jesus to the Jews' walk with God in the wilderness - because of their unbelief they were denied access to His rest - it also equates their disobedience to their unbelief - this seems then to be implying that if a believer is disobedient and has unbelief (or that disobedience would be a sign that the person would be in unbelief), he will not be able to enter into God's rest which seems like a reference to eternity with God]

Colossians 1:21-23 - 21And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, 22yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach-- [shows that this is addressing believers] 23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister. - [Note that according to verse 23, it gives the condition that one must continue in the faith in order to be presented before Him holy and blameless.]

I Timothy 1:18-19 - 18This command I entrust to you, Timothy, my son, in accordance with the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you fight the good fight, 19 keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith. - [best to see this as referencing believers since a person cannot suffer shipwreck of his faith if he was not in the faith to begin with.

 

[webdog]

The relationship sustained by a parent to a child is physical and has nothing to do whatsoever with any obedience, disobedience or the acceptance or rejecting of being a child of the parent. The relationship that is sustained between a parent and a child of their physical DNA is that of necessity.

When we become a child of God, His Spirit indwells us. God is the one who uses the father / child relationship as an example. You could say this is our new spiritual DNA...Father / child.

Are you prepared to say that the relationship that exists between a believer and God has nothing whatsoever to do with the acceptance or rejecting of salvations offer or sin or obedience?

Never said that. When we accept His free gift, we THEN become children
Joh 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

Are you prepared to state that the relationship that is sustained between God and the believer is one of like kind, i.e., of necessity?

If God says it...it's good enough for me.

 

[ccdnt]

How in the world can you lose the standing of being your parents child?!? Once you are a child you cannot undo that! This is common sense!

Since the issue of you trying to equate a physical relationship (biological parents) with a spiritual relationship has already been delt with, I thought I would add this.

You do realize that no one is born a "child of God". We are all born sinners, which means until one becomes a child of God (by accepting Christ as Savior), he is a child of the devil. If what you are saying is true, then that would mean no one could ever become a child of God since, as you say, "Once you are a child you cannot undo that". Also, you mention "common sense." Man's common sense is not always reliable when studying God's Word. There are many things in Scripture that some would say that could not be true if all they relied on for guidance was their "common sense". For example, some would say that common sense tells us that one cannot rise from the dead, walk on water, turn water to wine, etc.

 

[J. Jump]

None of the verses you cited show that salvation is a one-time event.

CC actually they do. If you look at the Greek langauage that is used that can be seen. In the Greek language as you know I am sure there is a way to make the verb a continual action. That is not the case in either of these two passages. Matter of fact Ephesians goes even futher in that the verb that is used carries the meaning of action "completed" in the past with the results carried out into the future. Salvation is a "completed" act as far as God is concerned, not a continual process as you are claiming.

Again no offense is intended, but if we let Scripture speak as it is written there is no way we can hold any other view other than eternal salvation is a one-time event.

You say there are other verses that say believing in a continual thing, which I agree with, but contextually we know that this believing has something to do with other than eternal salvation, because if it had to do with eternal salvation then the Bible would be contradicting itself in at least two places and that's an impossibility.

(I also agree that we are not saved by works. This Scripture does not say that believing in Christ/abiding in Christ/etc. is a work, however. Nor do I see this taught elsewhere in the Bible.)

Again you can believe this if you want, but it doesn't make it so. Anything that is dependant upon "you" is a work. Again you are mixing the finished works of Christ, with your ability to continue to believe and hold fast and all those other things. That is a reliance on yourself. That is works.

I could basically turn everything hear around and say the same thing in support of what I believe…
“…you can “believe” that until the cows come home, but it doesn’t make it so…The Bible clearly teaches that we are to abide in Christ/remain in Christ/continue to believe in Christ…You can deny that this is the case, but it doesn’t make it true…”
“Scripture says that salvation is not a one-time event…etc.”

You are right you could turn it around, but you would only be speaking half truths. Yes the Bible does say that we are to continue to believe. It does say we are to abide in Him. It does say we are to remain in Him, but the mistake you are making is that you are mixing contexts. Again if the contexts of abiding, continuing, remaining are eternal salvation then the Bible contradicts itself in Acts 16 and Ephesians 2 and Romans 4, because these verses clearly based on the languaged use say eternal salvation is not a life long process.

I see many warnings in Scripture against falling away. I see conditional statements regarding salvation... (if/then).

Again it is good that you see these warnings and conditions. There is a great realm of Christendom that doesn't see these in regard to believers, but write them off to the unsaved. But again the mistake you are making is that when you see salvation you are automatically coming to the conclusion that eternal salvation is the context, and that is simply not the case. Again, I know I sound like a broken record but . . ., if these warnings had to do with eternal salvation the Bible would clearly contradict itself which is an impossibility.

This has been my point from the very beginning. Any time the word salvation is used, it is not automatically talking about eternal salvaiton. There are different salvation contexts, and we must honore the way Scripture is written and stay within those contexts if we are going to truly understand what it is saying.

but, for those that believe in OSAS, why would you think people would not want the Bible to teach OSAS?

You are asking for speculation, and while I have an opinion, I don't know that it would help the conversation

As to your verse selection you have not shown the connection between falling away and eternal salvation. There is not one verse that you listed that makes that connection. All you have shown is that someone can fall away, which I agree with. What you are going to have to do is show how Scripture connects falling away with eternal salvation.

Again I applaud you for seeing the warnings and understanding that these are dealing with believers, but I would urge you to see the difference in contexts between eternal salvation and what these passages are actually referring to. And if you want to study this matter out I would be more than happy to point you to some excellent resource material.

 

[webdog]

Since the issue of you trying to equate a physical relationship (biological parents) with a spiritual relationship has already been delt with, I thought I would add this.

Nothing was dealt with. God uses the parent child relationship...not me. You must not have read my last post. Read John 1:12

You do realize that no one is born a "child of God"

Agreed to an extent if you are referring to children having faith from birth. I believe infants are born "not guilty", though, so they are saved.

We are all born sinners, which means until one becomes a child of God (by accepting Christ as Savior), he is a child of the devil.

I don't believe the augustinian view of original sin...that we are born "guilty". I believe we are born with a sin nature, and will sin, but according to Romans 5:13, sin of an infants is covered under Christ's blood.

If what you are saying is true, then that would mean no one could ever become a child of God since, as you say, "Once you are a child you cannot undo that".

Faulty conclusion and philosophy.

Also, you mention "common sense." Man's common sense is not always reliable when studying God's Word.

Exactly. That's what the Holy Spirit indwells us for. The Gospel is presented in a commons sense fashion, though. Christ using terms like Father / child are to be understood in this very context, not reasoned away to support a theology.

 

[ccdnt]

webdog,

I do not have a lot of time to respond at the moment, but I wanted to say that I also believe that if an infant were to die before he could understand right from wrong, what salvation is, etc. I believe he would go to be with Christ.

 

[ccdnt]

CC actually they do. If you look at the Greek langauage that is used that can be seen. In the Greek language as you know I am sure there is a way to make the verb a continual action. That is not the case in either of these two passages. Matter of fact Ephesians goes even futher in that the verb that is used carries the meaning of action "completed" in the past with the results carried out into the future. Salvation is a "completed" act as far as God is concerned, not a continual process as you are claiming.

Again no offense is intended, but if we let Scripture speak as it is written there is no way we can hold any other view other than eternal salvation is a one-time event.

You say there are other verses that say believing in a continual thing, which I agree with, but contextually we know that this believing has something to do with other than eternal salvation, because if it had to do with eternal salvation then the Bible would be contradicting itself in at least two places and that's an impossibility.


Again you can believe this if you want, but it doesn't make it so. Anything that is dependant upon "you" is a work. Again you are mixing the finished works of Christ, with your ability to continue to believe and hold fast and all those other things. That is a reliance on yourself. That is works.


You are right you could turn it around, but you would only be speaking half truths. Yes the Bible does say that we are to continue to believe. It does say we are to abide in Him. It does say we are to remain in Him, but the mistake you are making is that you are mixing contexts. Again if the contexts of abiding, continuing, remaining are eternal salvation then the Bible contradicts itself in Acts 16 and Ephesians 2 and Romans 4, because these verses clearly based on the languaged use say eternal salvation is not a life long process.


Again it is good that you see these warnings and conditions. There is a great realm of Christendom that doesn't see these in regard to believers, but write them off to the unsaved. But again the mistake you are making is that when you see salvation you are automatically coming to the conclusion that eternal salvation is the context, and that is simply not the case. Again, I know I sound like a broken record but . . ., if these warnings had to do with eternal salvation the Bible would clearly contradict itself which is an impossibility.

This has been my point from the very beginning. Any time the word salvation is used, it is not automatically talking about eternal salvaiton. There are different salvation contexts, and we must honore the way Scripture is written and stay within those contexts if we are going to truly understand what it is saying.


You are asking for speculation, and while I have an opinion, I don't know that it would help the conversation

As to your verse selection you have not shown the connection between falling away and eternal salvation. There is not one verse that you listed that makes that connection. All you have shown is that someone can fall away, which I agree with. What you are going to have to do is show how Scripture connects falling away with eternal salvation.

Again I applaud you for seeing the warnings and understanding that these are dealing with believers, but I would urge you to see the difference in contexts between eternal salvation and what these passages are actually referring to. And if you want to study this matter out I would be more than happy to point you to some excellent resource material.

Just briefly, as I do not have a lot of time at the moment, I wanted to say that I have studied this a lot, including looking at the original languages. I have read many arguments from various different views regarding salvation with the Scriptures they give as support. I once believed in OSAS, but after studying the Bible for myself (as opposed to having a preacher or denomination tell me what it says), I have come to realize that OSAS is not taught in Scripture. As I said earlier, this is not where I want OSAS to not be there. It would be great to know that once a person is saved, there is nothing he could do to jepordize that standing. When I was studying this, I did not just switch from believing OSAS automatically. I was quite resistant at first. I thought all the other views were wrong. This is not where I am trying to read "conditional security" into the Bible. I see it there when I read it. I think I can say that I have not seen the idea of their being more than one kind of salvation (or at least if I have, I do not remember it well), and I can say that on its surface, the idea that the Bible speaks of more than one kind of salvation seems just like a way to keep the OSAS view in there. I will try to go back and read what you wrote about what you believe about where I can at least try to understand where you are coming from.

 

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I wanted to say that I have studied this a lot, including looking at the original languages.

Then I'm really confused as to how you can hold to a conditional eternal security belief To me there is no way around Ephesians 2:8-9 which says it is a completed action in the past with the results carrying out into the future. That makes it pretty cut and dry, with zero wiggle room.

is not where I am trying to read "conditional security" into the Bible. I see it there when I read it.

Again I have applauded this and I see this too, but contextually it's not speaking of eternal salvation. It can't be and there are an enormous number of reasons why.

I will try to go back and read what you wrote about what you believe about where I can at least try to understand where you are coming from.

By the way it's not uncommon at all that people don't see anything other than eternal salvation in Scripture. The message of salvation has gone the way of traditions of men and the enemy has had a field day twisting God's Word.

I will PM you with some study material and you are more than welcome to PM me and email me for a more one-on-one conversation as you work through the material.