Forgiveness

[Tom Bryant]

Forgiveness requires that there is no consequences demanded. It is the very nature of our forgiveness by God.

So when God forgives the long time alcoholic, the cirrhosis (sp?) of the liver is removed because He doesn't demand consequences? Or the 40 year smoker won't have lung cancer?

I get that you're not saying that directly, but you are saying that in your definition.

 

[Revmitchell]

So when God forgives the long time alcoholic, the cirrhosis (sp?) of the liver is removed because He doesn't demand consequences? Or the 40 year smoker won't have lung cancer?

I get that you're not saying that directly, but you are saying that in your definition.

That could only be true if God was the cause of the consequences.

 

[PreachTony]

That could only be true if God was the cause of the consequences.

I'm thinking that I'm still not following you here, Rev. How are we supposed to act as though the sin that wronged us never happened when the consequence of that sin is right in front of us?

From earlier, I was not meaning consequence in a negative light when speaking of a child. I was intending the literal definition of consequence, which is "the result or effect of an action or condition."

 

[Revmitchell]

I'm thinking that I'm still not following you here, Rev. How are we supposed to act as though the sin that wronged us never happened when the consequence of that sin is right in front of us?

From earlier, I was not meaning consequence in a negative light when speaking of a child. I was intending the literal definition of consequence, which is "the result or effect of an action or condition."

Listen, there is a vast difference between our demanding the offender suffer consequences and the offender suffering consequences of their choices. Our ability to act in forgiveness is not dependent on their consequences. It is simply a choice we make regardless of what they are experiencing.

 

[Iconoclast]

Pure baloney. First, the thread did not need to be created. The original thread was not off topic. Second the verses you quote are not related to the question. Christ said to forgive someone 7 times 70. He said nothing about repentance before forgiveness. Give some verses that apply.

AD

consider Matthew 18 vs 15 and 16 in context of church discipline .
in verse 15 if he shall hear thee than in verse 16 were told but if he will not hear thee
I take that as the repentance if the person comes to repentance so when the chapter moves down to verse 21 and Peter asks how often you know she'll take place 7 times 70 and then Jesus answered him as to the frequency again. but he doesn't get into the specifics and verse 21 I think verse 15 and 16 show the specifics

 

[Revmitchell]

AD

consider Matthew 18 vs 15 and 16 in context of church discipline .
in verse 15 if he shall hear thee than in verse 16 were told but if he will not hear thee
I take that as the repentance if the person comes to repentance so when the chapter moves down to verse 21 and Peter asks how often you know she'll take place 7 times 70 and then Jesus answered him as to the frequency again. but he doesn't get into the specifics and verse 21 I think verse 15 and 16 show the specifics

Which is exactly what I have pointed out with another poster who quoted the latter verse.

 

[Iconoclast]

Which is exactly what I have pointed out with another poster who quoted the latter verse.

:wavey::thumbs:

 

[annsni]

I am not saying its not wisdom or that it should not be done. And no we do not. Neither can we say that we have forgiven him.

So in order to be obedient to Jesus' commands, we need to allow a child molester who has asked for forgiveness to be alone with a child again. Otherwise we are being disobedient and in sin.

 

[JonC]

The issue of forgiveness came up in another thread. Here is my position on forgiveness:

Definition:

Forgiveness: to treat the offender as if they never offended you.

Scenario:

A pastor has an affair with your wife.


Response:

There are two offending parties in this scenario. The pastor and the wife. What obligations do we as Christians have in response to the offenders?

It is my position that forgiveness can only occur when repentance has been achieved. To forgive is to act and treat the offenders as if it never happened. If the pastor had truly been forgiven then he will not loose his position as a pastor. The relationship with the wife will continue on as if it never happened. Unless this has occurred then forgiveness has not happened.


Biblical support:

Luke 17:4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

Act_2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


Summary:

Freeing yourself form the emotions of being offended such as anger, outrage, hatred etc. is not the same thing and forgiving. Those are two seperate issues.

We are not forgiven by God and thus saved unless we repent.

Repentance is always necessary for forgiveness to be had.

I see your point, but I disagree in that I do not believe repentance is necessary for forgiveness. My position is that forgiveness stems out of a character trait of the offended believer, not the offender, and is therefore not dependent upon the offender. Restoration, however, is a different matter.

In your example, the pastor may be forgiven but not restored to the position of pastor. A lack of restoration does not mean a lack of forgiveness. Likewise, I may be forgiven for a sin yet still face consequences for that sin. Forgiveness may not be accompanied by a restoration of position, trust, etc.

 

[Revmitchell]

So in order to be obedient to Jesus' commands, we need to allow a child molester who has asked for forgiveness to be alone with a child again. Otherwise we are being disobedient and in sin.

Maybe, do you think that the definition of forgiveness is dependent on our fear of child molesters?

 

[Revmitchell]

I see your point, but I disagree in that I do not believe repentance is necessary for forgiveness. My position is that forgiveness stems out of a character trait of the offended believer, not the offender, and is therefore not dependent upon the offender. Restoration, however, is a different matter.

That may be your position but what is God's position. I have given scripture to support what I have said. Help me understand where from scripture you get yours.

In your example, the pastor may be forgiven but not restored to the position of pastor. A lack of restoration does not mean a lack of forgiveness. Likewise, I may be forgiven for a sin yet still face consequences for that sin. Forgiveness may not be accompanied by a restoration of position, trust, etc.

Ok if you will go back and read my posts I never said that forgiveness removes consequences. What I said is that forgiveness requires that we do not demand consequences.

 

[JonC]

That may be your position but what is God's position. I have given scripture to support what I have said. Help me understand where from scripture you get yours.


Ok if you will go back and read my posts I never said that forgiveness removes consequences. What I said is that forgiveness requires that we do not demand consequences.

Sorry, I did not mean to misstate your position. I disagree that forgiveness necessarily requires that we do not demand consequences. I do not believe that Matthew 18:15-17, for example, highlights the appropriateness of withholding forgiveness (although it obviously speaks to reconciliation...or the lack thereof).

As far as verses that say we are not to condition our forgiveness of others to their repentance, I can find none...I believe because the notion that we should is foreign to Scripture. But I will study this some more and perhaps be able to offer you a better explanation or change my position. I will offer that we are to be imitators of the Christ who prayed forgiveness for those crucifying Him.

 

[Revmitchell]

Sorry, I did not mean to misstate your position. I disagree that forgiveness necessarily requires that we do not demand consequences. I do not believe that Matthew 18:15-17, for example, highlights the appropriateness of withholding forgiveness (although it obviously speaks to reconciliation...or the lack thereof).

Not only does forgiveness mean we do not demand consequences but it is dependent on repentance based on these verses.

As far as verses that say we are not to condition our forgiveness of others to their repentance, I can find none.

.

Oh, then you need to go back and read through this thread.

 

[JonC]

Oh, then you need to go back and read through this thread.

I have, but will again more closely when I have time. Thus far the closest I can find is the verse you present in Luke. That verse, however, does not make repentance conditional for forgiveness. But I will have to go back and devote more time to what I've missed in the thread.

 

[JonC]

Not only does forgiveness mean ....

Would you say that not forgiving someone is “holding a grudge” or clinging to ill feelings towards that person for an act? The reason I ask is that we often hear that forgiveness is to benefit the one wronged (I even alluded to this definition a couple of posts back). But Scripture does not present it this way. We don’t forgive for ourselves (except in that we be forgiven) but for the one seeking forgiveness. Has our culture twisted the notion of forgiveness (e.g., the Mayo clinic defines forgiveness as “the decision to let go of resentment or revenge,” which is the common worldly definition)? The reason for forgiveness (again, per the Mayo clinic and I believe our secular/cultural understanding) is for a "greater spiritual and psychological well being" and a "higher self-esteem." But God forgives out of love for the object of His forgiveness, not to “let go of resentment or revenge.” It seems to me that we (our culture in general) operates off of a self-centered notion of forgiveness.

Anyway, I am not yet swayed that you are correct in the initial post but I am leaning towards the notion that my comments were in error.

 

[Revmitchell]

Would you say that not forgiving someone is “holding a grudge” or clinging to ill feelings towards that person for an act?

No, that would be incorrectly conflating forgiveness with how we feel about being offended. They are not the same thing. We can give up the ill feelings and still not have forgiven the offender.

Forgiveness is much like love. While feeling are what motivate us to love they are not in and of themselves love. Love is an action not a feeling.

Forgiveness is an action not a feeling. In this case the action is not demanding consequences. If we have truly forgiven someone we must treat them as if it never happened.

 

[JonC]

No, that would be incorrectly conflating forgiveness with how we feel about being offended. They are not the same thing. We can give up the ill feelings and still not have forgiven the offender.

Forgiveness is much like love. While feeling are what motivate us to love they are not in and of themselves love. Love is an action not a feeling.

Forgiveness is an action not a feeling. In this case the action is not demanding consequences. If we have truly forgiven someone we must treat them as if it never happened.

I agree with much that you have posted. Thank you for your explanation. forgiveness as well as love is indeed an action and not a feeling. If I understand you correctly, then this is an example of where we may disagree (or where I may be misunderstanding you):

This happened several years ago in a church I attended. A youth minister is inappropriately soliciting teenage girls. He is now on probation and wants to be involved once again with the youth group. He may be forgiven, but it would be an obscenely irresponsibility to restore him to the position he once held. Perhaps he would be forgiven and the church would work on reconciling him to a position in the ministry, but probably not one identical to the position he held (I realize some would have no problem with putting him back in the same position as evidenced by repeated abuses within churches today). My point is one does not have to choose between acting responsibly by looking after the best interests of their brethren and forgiving someone.

Forgiveness does not mean acting as if the incident never occurred, but it does mean acting is if you were not wronged.

 

[Revmitchell]

I agree with much that you have posted. Thank you for your explanation. forgiveness as well as love is indeed an action and not a feeling. If I understand you correctly, then this is an example of where we may disagree (or where I may be misunderstanding you):

This happened several years ago in a church I attended. A youth minister is inappropriately soliciting teenage girls. He is now on probation and wants to be involved once again with the youth group. He may be forgiven, but it would be an obscenely irresponsibility to restore him to the position he once held. Perhaps he would be forgiven and the church would work on reconciling him to a position in the ministry, but probably not one identical to the position he held (I realize some would have no problem with putting him back in the same position as evidenced by repeated abuses within churches today). My point is one does not have to choose between acting responsibly by looking after the best interests of their brethren and forgiving someone.

Forgiveness does not mean acting as if the incident never occurred, but it does mean acting is if you were not wronged.

Not putting him back in to his original position is not acting as if someone was not wronged if it is not acting as if the incident never occurred. The latter is merely a restatement of the former.

(I am not suggesting that we do such a thing)

My question is this:

Does the difficulty of being forgiving in extreme situations determined the definition of forgiveness or do we follow the biblical definition and Christs example of His forgiveness of us?

 

[JonC]

Not putting him back in to his original position is not acting as if someone was not wronged if it is not acting as if the incident never occurred. The latter is merely a restatement of the former.

(I am not suggesting that we do such a thing)

My question is this:

Does the difficulty of being forgiving in extreme situations determined the definition of forgiveness or do we follow the biblical definition and Christs example of His forgiveness of us?

I think that we need to have the "mind of Christ" and follow His example. Asking God to forgive those who were crucifying Him is an example of this extreme forgiveness.

I don't think that forgiveness necessarily means acting as if the incident never occurred as much as it is a reconciliation (not necessarily a restoration) despite the incident. In my example it would mean taking that minister and helping him as a brother, even though it would most likely mean not restoring him to the position of a youth minister. He is forgiven in that he's reconciled with the church, reconciled with the offended parties, not thought of as "less" because of the offense but at the same time not returned to the exact position from which he fell. (This, unfortunately, was not the result in this person's case...he was never forgiven by many and was asked to leave the church because some would feel uncomfortable).

 

[annsni]

When we are forgiven by God, does He remove all of the consequences of our sin?