"Forsake sin" FOR Salvation?

[ReformedBaptist]

As I mentioned in other threads, this controversy was relatively new on me. But I have been as I have been able looking at it more closely. And I wanted to offer something more in direct response to Lou.

In his sermon John MacArthur speaks of the Gospel. Any responsible Bible-believing Christian understands that the Gospel is the "good news" of salvation from sin, death and Hell. The Gospel is God’s redemptive plan for the lost.

I would assume by "responsible Bible-belieiving Christian" he means those who regard the Holy Scriptures as the infallible and inerrant Word of God. I would also expect that this means we believe the Bible is the final and wholly sufficient rule of authority for faith and practice.

This said, Lou makes a brief statement of what the Gospel is. That it is the "good news" of salvation. I agree. Yet it is much more than that. It is:

-The Gospel of the kingdom. Matt 4:23; 9:35; 24:14;
-The totality of the life of Jesus Christ. Mark 1:1
-The death, buriel and resurrection of Christ. 1 Cor 15:1
-The preaching of Jesus Christ. Rom 16:25
-Is everlasting Rev 14:6

And these are not many Gospels, but one eternal, everlasting Gospel of GOd.

The Gospel call of Jesus, according to John MacArthur, calls on the lost to “forsake sin, turn from sin, and pursue righteousness.” The Gospel FOR salvation, as defined MacArthur, equates a change in behavior as co-equal with believing.

Let's look at MacArthur's words again: “The gospel call of Jesus was a call to forsake sin as much as it was a summons to believe in Him. It was a call to turn from sin. From His first message to His last, the Savior’s theme was calling sinners to turn from their sin, to embrace God, to pursue righteousness. It was not only that they had a new perspective on who He was, but that they turn from sin to follow Him.” (John MacArthur: The Call to Repentance, Part 3 from the four sermon series on the Lordship of Christ.)"

I am taking the quote direct from Lou and not Mac's book. By the title the theme here is repentance. The question we should ask ourselves is whether or not in the preaching of Jesus does He call, in His Gospel, sinners to forsake sin as much as He does to believe in Him? Is this the teaching of Jesus? Was Jesus calling sinners to repentance, to turn from their sin, and to follow Him (embrace God) and pursue righteousness? Was Jesus' call not merely to have a new pespective on who He was (change of mind) but that they turn from sin to follow Him?

In order to answer these questions we must examine the life of Jesus and His teaching. Let's take a look at His teaching.

"Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel." Mark 1:14-15

"There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things? I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. " Luke 13:1-3

Jesus preached repentance and faith. How is that Jesus defines repentance? How does He define the person who does enter the kingdom of God? Consider the following:

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." Matt 7:21

Will finish the post in a bit.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

When Jesus preached the Gospel He preached a message of repent and believe. This is also contained in the epistles. "Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, " Heb 6:1

When the Gospel is preached repentance must be preached as well. "And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem." Luke 24:47

Also, "Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ." Acts 20:21

And, "But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and [then] to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance." Acts 26:20

It has been proposed on the boards in regard to this topic that repentance is a change of mind, and it seemed to me to indicate, nothing more than that. A mere change of mind. But this is not the testimony of Scripture. Repentance that is not accompanied by works is not repentance. We are to do works "meet" for repentance. That is to say, works that are fitting or accompany repentance. Let him to stole steal no longer. et.

God is the author of our repentance. But this does not mean God repents for us. Yet He is the one who gives it. "When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life." Acts 11:18 and "Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?" Romans 2:4

and again, "In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; " 2 Tim 2:25

This is the testimony of Scripture concerning the Gospel call. Is this what JM is teaching or is he teaching something different? Again, I quote Lou's quote of JM "It was not only that they had a new perspective on who He was, but that they turn from sin to follow Him."

MacArthur is teaching repentance AND faith in the Lord Jesus. Lou proposes that his teaching is "The Gospel FOR salvation, as defined MacArthur, equates a change in behavior as co-equal with believing."

At this point, based on the quote from Mac, and in light of Scripture, I do not see Lou proving his allogation that JM is teaching a Gospel FOR salvation. He is teaching repentance AND faith. The idea of "co-equal" is not found in Scripture or JM's teaching here. It is teaching that the Gospel call is repent AND believe.

"And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house," (Acts 16:31) Is salvation through believeing or behaving? The lost are born again by believing in who Jesus is and what He did to provide salvation. LS adds a commitment to behave as one might expect a born again disciple of Christ should once he has believed and become a Christian.

Here Lou is setting up, what I believe is a false dichotomy, or false dilemma. He asks us, "Is salvation through believing or behaving?" Neither the Scripture nor MacArthur posit this either or proposition. Therefore the question is invalid.

Lou also teaches us that the lost is born again by believing. Lou, I think you need to expand your meaning here. This not what I find in Scripture, but I will accept that this is what you meant:

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 1 Peter 1:23

And, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." John 3:6

We are born again by the Spirit of God through the Word of God. Of couse, this is not apart from faith in Christ, and I think this is what Lou probably meant?

This is a message that conditions eternal salvation on the lost man making a commitment to “forsake” (stop) sinning, start obeying and keep obeying over a life time. That is WORKS salvation! Lordship Salvation is a corruption of the “simplicity that is in Christ,” (2 Cor. 11:3).

Actually, it is not. It is the doctrine of perseverance. "For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end" Hebrews 3:14. Any doctrine which does not accord with godliness is false doctrine. The testimony of the Apostles and of our Lord Jesus Christ is to repent and believe the Gospel. We know who these are by their fruit, or works. The one who does not hold fast their faith in Christ until the end are not partakers of Christ.

Nor is the Gospel message which preaches to the sinner, "Repent and believe the Gospel" making it conditional at all. It is a matter of counting the cost. I have not seen anything in the teaching of MacArthur that disagrees with the teaching of Jesus and the Apostles.

I do find the teaching of MacArthur, and the teaching of Jesus and the Apostles, opposed to cheap grace. The Holy Scriptures are against an easy-believism as JM calls it that posits mere intellectual asscent to certain facts as true repentance and a faith that is devoid of works. Those things Scripture is against in every place. Repentance without accompanying works is hypocrisy. And faith without works is dead.

Those who "make decisions" for Jesus yet see not fruit in their lives, no change of affections, no remorse over their sin, no committment to Christ, no love of God in their hearts, no keeping of His commandments (for the one who loves Jesus keeps His commandments) should disregard the false assurances of those who suggest that you are ok. The Scripture gives you no such assurance. If you continue in sin as your habitual practice it is an indication that you might be outside of Christ. Strive to enter by the narrow gate, because there will be many who say to Jesus "Lord, Lord" but who by their works have denied Him. They have not done the will of the Father.

The will of God the Father is that you believe in Him whom He has sent. It is also the will of the Father that none of those He has given to Jesus will perish. And none will perish who belong to Jesus. "Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul." Heb 10:38-39.

These are the true Christians brethren. Not those who draw back to perdition. But those who believe to the saving of the soul, to the very end.

RB

RB

 

[canadyjd]

Well said. Well documented with scripture. Well done ReformedBaptist:thumbs:

peace to youraying:

 

[Lou Martuneac]

“The gospel call of Jesus was a call to forsake sin (stop sinning, WORKS) as much as it was a summons to believe in Him (believe and behavior FOR salvation). It was a call to turn from sin (WORKS). From His first message to His last, the Savior’s theme was calling sinners (unsaved) to turn from their sin (WORKS), to embrace God, to pursue righteousness (perform good works, JM's error of viewing the results of salvation as the requirement FOR salvation)). It was not only that they had a new perspective on who He was, but that they turn from sin to follow Him.” (John MacArthur: The Call to Repentance, Part 3 from the four sermon series on The Lordship of Christ.)

Lordship Salvation is a message that calls on the lost man to commit to, come to Christ with a resolve to "turn from sin" FOR salvation. Come to Christ FOR salvation with a willingness to "forsake everything" FOR salvation. Grace is frustrated (Gal. 2:21) and the simplicity in Chrst corrupted (2 Cor. 11:3) by the errors of Lordship Salvation.

May God help:
1) Unsuspecting believers to recognize these LS teachings that are antithetical to the His Word.
2) To avoid falling into the trap of and
3) being deceived by Lordship Salvation.


LM

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Lordship Salvation is a message that calls on the lost man to commit to, come to Christ with a resolve to "turn from sin" FOR salvation. Come to Christ FOR salvation with a willingness to "forsake everything" FOR salvation. Grace is frustrated (Gal. 2:21) and the simplicity in Chrst corrupted (2 Cor. 11:3) by the errors of Lordship Salvation.

May God help:
1) Unsuspecting believers to recognize these LS teachings that are antithetical to the His Word.
2) To avoid falling into the trap of and
3) being deceived by Lordship Salvation.


LM

May God also help Christians see how modern churches and some Baptist churches have re-defined Christianity in the modern century.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I have a question not really responding to the thread but I've notice a lot of debate about what JM said or didn't say. Why? Why all this talk about JM? Is he some sort of Grand Pooba? I mean that guy from silver back has some interesting things to say but he's not a Pooba either unless you want to use his meathod to grow your church. It's not like JM is Calvin or Luther or Wesley or Knox or Amans or Simons or any of the other great reformers. Why should I care what his theology is. I don't like Barth but I don't put JM on the same level I regard Bonhoffer and Lewis more than I do JM. Does he have some great following or something?

 

[Revmitchell]

Lordship Salvation is a message that calls on the lost man to commit to, come to Christ with a resolve to "turn from sin" FOR salvation. Come to Christ FOR salvation with a willingness to "forsake everything" FOR salvation. Grace is frustrated (Gal. 2:21) and the simplicity in Chrst corrupted (2 Cor. 11:3) by the errors of Lordship Salvation.

May God help:
1) Unsuspecting believers to recognize these LS teachings that are antithetical to the His Word.
2) To avoid falling into the trap of and
3) being deceived by Lordship Salvation.


LM

Again...you have taken 2 Cor 11:3 out of context. The word "simplicity" is speaking to a selfless Christianity not a gospel that lacks complexities. And JM never suggested that salvation was through the law.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

I have a question not really responding to the thread but I've notice a lot of debate about what JM said or didn't say. Why? Why all this talk about JM? Is he some sort of Grand Pooba? I mean that guy from silver back has some interesting things to say but he's not a Pooba either unless you want to use his meathod to grow your church. It's not like JM is Calvin or Luther or Wesley or Knox or Amans or Simons or any of the other great reformers. Why should I care what his theology is. I don't like Barth but I don't put JM on the same level I regard Bonhoffer and Lewis more than I do JM. Does he have some great following or something?

Actually, his ministry is quite large and so his influence is. I guess if your interested you can poke around his website and look into the seminary they have. You will notice that I have compared JM's teachings with the criticism (and I mean that in a good way) of Lou. But my focus has been to compare the teaching with that of the Scripture. And my contention has been and continues to be that I see nothing contrary in JM's teaching to the doctine of Christ and the Apostles.

And let me add, that I believe that our focus needs to be brought back to Jesus.

 

[DHK]

It has been proposed on the boards in regard to this topic that repentance is a change of mind, and it seemed to me to indicate, nothing more than that. A mere change of mind. But this is not the testimony of Scripture. Repentance that is not accompanied by works is not repentance. We are to do works "meet" for repentance. That is to say, works that are fitting or accompany repentance. Let him to stole steal no longer. et.

RB

Can you show me anywhere in the NT where an unbeliever is commanded to repent of their sins in order to be saved.

 

[Revmitchell]

Luk 13:3 No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.

Luk 16:30 And he said, 'No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.'

Act 2:38 And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.


Act 3:19 Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out,

Act 17:30 The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent,

Act 26:20 but declared first to those in Damascus, then in Jerusalem and throughout all the region of Judea, and also to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds in keeping with their repentance.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Can you show me anywhere in the NT where an unbeliever is commanded to repent of their sins in order to be saved.

What RevMitchel said.. :laugh:

 

[Revmitchell]

What RevMitchel said.. :laugh:

I am not sure what was so difficult about that.

 

[DHK]

What RevMitchel said.. :laugh:

The term "repentance" is used.
You are assuming a certain unbiblical definition of repentance.
Nowhere in the NT does the Bible command us to repent of our sins.
I ask you again: Where in the NT does the Bible command us to repent of all our sins; or even, "repent of our sins."
Remember the Gospel message is not the OT John the Baptist message.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Actually, his ministry is quite large and so his influence is. I guess if your interested you can poke around his website and look into the seminary they have. You will notice that I have compared JM's teachings with the criticism (and I mean that in a good way) of Lou. But my focus has been to compare the teaching with that of the Scripture. And my contention has been and continues to be that I see nothing contrary in JM's teaching to the doctine of Christ and the Apostles.

And let me add, that I believe that our focus needs to be brought back to Jesus.

but both of you have reformed theology in common

 

[ReformedBaptist]

but both of you have reformed theology in common

Actually, JM and I would have Calvinism in common. I am more Reformed than he is...:laugh:

 

[Pilgrimer]

I agree with Reformed Baptist. I don't see anything in the words of MacArthur, that have been quoted, to suggest he is preaching a works-based salvation. But it depends on MacArthur's view on repentance.

If you take the view that repentance is a work of man that preceeds or initiates salvation, then yes, repentance-based salvation would be a works-based salvation and Mr. Martenuac would be correct.

But if you take the view that repentance itself is the fruit of the Spirit of God at work in our hearts and minds, then repentance-based salvation would still be faith-based.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[Pilgrimer]

Remember the Gospel message is not the OT John the Baptist message.

There is only one Gospel. It was preached in the Old Testament through types and figures, but it was the same message as the Gospel peached in the New Testament . . . that Salvation is of God.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[webdog]

But if you take the view that repentance itself is the fruit of the Spirit of God at work in our hearts and minds, then repentance-based salvation would still be faith-based.

What do you mean by the "fruit of the Spirit of God at work in our hearts and minds"? Do you hold to pre faith regeneration?

 

[ReformedBaptist]

What do you mean by the "fruit of the Spirit of God at work in our hearts and minds"? Do you hold to pre faith regeneration?

That thing really gets at ya doesn't it? lol

 

[DHK]

There is only one Gospel. It was preached in the Old Testament through types and figures, but it was the same message as the Gospel peached in the New Testament . . . that Salvation is of God.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

Be that as it may, where does it say that one must repent of all his sins to be saved? This is not a Biblical teaching. Perhaps I should go as far as to say it is borderline heresy.