Forsaken in Matthew 27:46

[Yeshua1]

No. The lost will experience a state that is foreign to God. They will be, by definition, evil and void of "light" and "truth". They will be in a hopeless state, not even able to look to God in hopes of deliverance. Now they experience some common grace through the Spirit. But then God's Spirit will be withdrawn. They will be evil, by definition (eternally opposed to God). Jesus experienced none of this.

But what Jesus experienced was far more extreme than the eternal damnation of every man who lived because He is God, and God hung on the cross - Jesus' humanity was not separated from His divine person - and suffered at the hands of those He had created, those He had come to save, by the Father's design.

He suffered just as the eternally lost will while bearing their sins upon the Cross!
The father had active Wrath blasting Jesus, had to treat Him as he were sin in His sight!

 

[JonC]

To Jesus, during that time on the Cross, he felt as if the father had rejected Him!

I think you need to define this "feeling of rejection". In what capacity did Jesus feel rejected?

 

[The Biblicist]

I think you need to define this "feeling of rejection". In what capacity did Jesus feel rejected?

I think you need to! Obviously God is omnipresent and so He does not forsake anyone at anytime with regard to his presence. Fellowship is always about the SENSE of His presence not about the fact of his presence. It is obvious from his words "why hast thou forsaken me" are about the sense of the Father's presence as Jesus could never doubt the Fathers omnipresence.

Your view suggests that God could look at Christ as being made sin and yet not treat him as being made to be sin.

 

[JonC]

I think you need to!

I don't believe Jesus felt rejected of God. I believe instead that Jesus suffered knowing that he was being obedient to the will of the Father and that the Father would be faithful to deliver him.

Obviously God is omnipresent and so He does not forsake anyone at anytime with regard to his presence. Fellowship is always about the SENSE of His presence not about the fact of his presence.

And, of course, to borrow from the quote we've been considering, "Jesus does not cease being God before, during, or after this. Jesus’ cry does not divide His human nature from His divine person or destroy the Trinity. Nor does it detach Him from the Holy Spirit." So it is not just divine omnipresence.

It is obvious from his words "why hast thou forsaken me" are about the sense of the Father's presence as Jesus could never doubt the Fathers omnipresence.

I agree not only that this is about a "sense" or "feeling", but also an experience. Jesus is experiencing the Father's presence in a different way (as the Father lays our iniquities upon Him).
Omnipresence is not applicable because Jesus is God (it's a given) and Jesus is not severed from God's Spirit (instead he is faithfully obedient to death, and accomplishing our redemption through the Spirit).

Your view suggests that God could look at Christ as being made sin and yet not treat him as being made to be sin.

Nonsense. Your position minimizes God Himself sacrificing for mankind.

Not only is the Cross beyond the suffering that all of mankind would experience (because Jesus is God) but the sacrifice of the Father is also beyond anything mankind would experience in toto. We do not need to minimize the Cross (to make it what we would have suffered) to support substitutionary atonement.

My view has Christ being made sin on the grounds that God is offering Him as an atoning sacrifice, laying our sins on His Beloved Son and pouring the consequences of sin upon Him because of his love for us. Do I think that the Father tricked himself into hating Jesus (as He hates sin)? No, of course not. He offered His Son not only as loving the world but also with a love for His Son (it was also a sacrifice on the part of the Father).

 

[JonC]

I
Your view suggests that God could look at Christ as being made sin and yet not treat him as being made to be sin.

I think that this comment deserves a little more than I have offered regarding its accuracy to my view.

My view is that Jesus’ entire earthly ministry to include the Cross is a part of the Atonement. On the Cross the Father looked on His Son and knew that Jesus had fulfilled the law and was laying down his life of his own accord in perfect obedience. The Father did not make Jesus to be sin, and He did not look at Jesus as if he were sin. Instead I believe that the Father looked on His Son and was pleased, for it was His will that Jesus lay down his life as a propitiation for sin.

Rather than a punishment, Jesus took upon himself the consequences of our sin. What I mean by this is the Father was not punishing His Son because He knew full well that this point in time, this suffering, is Jesus’ greatest work of obedience (punishment implies the purpose of controlling and retribution). Our punishment was propitiated on the Cross.

But what this looked like was far beyond human suffering (even the eternal suffering of man). Jesus (as God, his human nature united with his divine person) experienced his body, beaten, broken, and dying on the Cross. There is NOTHING that God could do to all of mankind as a whole that would even come close to this sacrifice. This was for our punishment, as a propitiation for our sins, as a substitute for us, suffering in our stead. Jesus did not experience our punishment. He did not experience what those who will suffer in Hell experience. What He experienced was far worse because He is God.

Likewise, what the Father experienced in the act of love that was giving His only Beloved Son was a sacrifice that eternally exceeded in love the wrath that would have been poured out for our sins. It would have been this way just because God the Father gave sacrificially. But giving of Himself, giving His Son, willing that His Son suffer so that we may life…NOTHING that all of mankind could experience would ever come close to this.

So yes, I reject the idea that Jesus just took the punishment we would have experienced and we were saved. I deny that it was such a business transaction, equaling the credit and debit columns on a divine ledger. What was given cannot be expressed in terms of what we would have suffered. I believe that those I’ve opposed on this thread are severely minimalizing the Cross and the Atonement in order to puff up their version of penal substitution.

 

[percho]

I don't believe Jesus felt rejected of God. I believe instead that Jesus suffered knowing that he was being obedient to the will of the Father and that the Father would be faithful to deliver him.

Deliver him from what?

My view has Christ being made sin on the grounds that God is offering Him as an atoning sacrifice, laying our sins on His Beloved Son and pouring the consequences of sin upon Him because of his love for us.

Offering, what, of him?

My view is that Jesus’ entire earthly ministry to include the Cross is a part of the Atonement.

Lev 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul (Lev 17:11) an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. He shall see of the travail of his soul, (his being) and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul (Lev 17:11) unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

IMHO Upon having the iniquity of all being laid on him, he felt forsaken of God, his Father and committed, the breath of life. the spirit of him, into the hands of his Father.

Hebrews 5:8 states that even though he was the Son that through the things he suffered he learned the obedience.

What obedience? ------ I believe the obedience unto death, even the death of the cross. The obedience of faith.

Before the faith came they were under the law, the schoolmaster.
After the faith came followed by the grace of life no longer under the schoolmaster but under grace. Gal 3:23-25 Gal 2:20,21 Rom 6:9-14

 

[Squire Robertsson]

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