Four Points of Calvinism in one verse

ILL after reading the below thread (all the way up to page 9 !! ) , I'm surprised to hear that you feel that you are as serious as a heart attack when it comes to the truth.
http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/35/1324.html?

 

HOLD IT!!!
Arminians don't say that ALL were "dead IN CHRIST" on the Cross. Cleary; only those IN Christ; meaning saved; were "dead IN Him" (meaning died to the "old man"; NOT "dead in sin", which was what "all men" were); and OF COURSE they will "live with Him"!

 

Hi Rich;
Better seek other means for employment. You'll never make it on the path you're following. Never did see a need for comics.Especially boring ones
May Christ Shine His light On Us all;
Mike

 

Hi Whetstone;

If your not willing to sacrafice all then you won't make it friend. Humanity is flesh and I'd gladly die to be with the Lord. There literally is nothing else but my Savior. I live and breathe Jesus Christ. He is all there is.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

Mike the only comical thing about this is that I think you truly do take yourself serious-- even your signature from your posts, appears false. Nothing more than empty words.

 

Rich_UK,
I see you hiding behind cover taking potshots at those who expose their deep personal faith, while you risk nothing! What a clown you are.

 

Birds of a feather, rah rah rah....

I'm not hiding behind any cover Wes. I'm stating fact here. ILL likes to parade around as someone who acts as if he speaks and knows all truth (and yet displays his mastery on other threads of his ability to dodge the issues that he pretends to know so much about) and at the same time displays no outward signs whatsoever of someone with an ounce of grace and humilty, on many threads. I was merely pointing out that for someone who pretends to love truth, he certainly doesn't act like it in other threads. I didn't call him a name, nor will I call you a name.

Having read your posts on this and other threads, I also do have to wonder. Do you people have ANY people skills whatsoever or were you just born with an arrogrant attitude toward those who differ with you?
Grow up Wes. You might be mature in age, and you might have plenty of head knowledge... but you act like a 2 year old times.

 

Hey Whetstone, you forgot that this verse also teaches against abortion, homosexuality, pants on women, and electricity (the only ones who follow it faithfully are Amish)!

lol

Honestly I've never seen a passage of Scripture so mutilated by such over-analysis and inserted meanings. Was this a joke or what? Cause it was funny! Heh.

 

add a counter interpretation to a false, forced interpretation? Sorry not now, I'm laughing so hard I can't think straight . . . maybe another day after I realize the gravity of your situation and begin crying. Sheesh, how insensitive can I be?

 

Hi Whetstone;
Why should I argue against something I agree with. It your interpretation I disagree with
May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
Mike

 

Hi Whetstone;
On another thread you claim you already have eternal life and now you say you have to die to get it. That's not eternal life that's in your possesion right now is it?
May Christ Shine His Light On us All;
Mike

 

Is there a bottom line here Dan? Is there a point that you are trying to make, a dogma you are supporting?

We all agree that for us to be alive in Christ, we must first die to self. So what's your argument?

 

Hi Daniel

I note that you Calvinists are pretty good of reading in to Scripture, that which is not there!

You assume that four of the "points" of Calvinism are found in 2 Timothy 2:11? Where are these "points" then? Tne way you have listed them are how you wish they would be, but the plain fact of the matter is, that you have failed to understand this verse, and closed your eyes to what Paul goes on to say. Why? Because verse 12 completely destroys your doctrine of "once save, always saved"! Would you care to read in context? Paul says is verse 12: "if we (the same "we" you refer to in verse 11 to prove your point) DENY (Greek: "to forsake, renounce", not the same Greek word used for Peter's denials of our Lord)Him, He will also DENY us". Do you understand what this is saying here? Can you accept what the Holy Spirit is saying here, without you trying to twist the meaning of the words used? If we same believers who have "died with Him", can also be "denied by Him", what point is there for the three points of Calvinism? For, the Limited Atonement, Irresistable grace, and Unconditional Election, come to nothing, if we able to "fall from grace"!

The point you claim Final Perseverance, is NOT mentioned here unconditionally. Read the beginning of verse 12 "IF WE ENDURE" Do you know what the conjunction. "ei" in the Greek means? This is what is used for a "conditional sentense". Do you know what this means here? Simple, if you were to read on, we have the "condition", which is found in the Greek word, "hupomeno", which is the strenghtened form of the verb "meno", denoting: "to perservere", as Paul puts is, "I have kept the faith". You see, that context tells us that ONLY IF WE PERSEVERE, then, we will reign together with Him. However, that it is possible NOT TO PERSEVERE, is evident from the use of the "denial", something that is quite pointless if it could never happen. What does Paul encourage believers to do in 1 Timothy 6:12? He says that we must "fight the good fight of faith, LAY HOLD OF eternal life..." Do you know what this means, to "lay hold of eternal life"? Why would Paul tell believers to "grasp tightly eternal life", if it was impossible to lose your salvation? Makes no sense, does it?

Yos see, if you want to "rightly divide the Word of Truth", then you have to be honset with what you study, and not be afraid to have Scripture disagree with your beliefs. You have taken a verse by itself, out of its context, and then forced it to say something that it does not say. At least, not the way that you say that it does. Further, you are only playing games, when you take one verse from the entire writings of Paul, and try to build doctrines on it, where others, just as strong can be given from Paul to contradict what you say!

Lets be honest in our handeling of the Word of God

 

Is there a bottom line here Dan? Is there a point that you are trying to make, a dogma you are supporting?

We all agree that for us to be alive in Christ, we must first die to self. So what's your argument? </font>[/QUOTE]Daniel, you want to play silly little games? You come over as someone who lacks humility, and assume that you have those who are not Calvinists, wacked? You are so wrong! I will give you a verse here, that teaches that everyone will be saved in the end! Universalism? I am playing your game with you:

Read Romans 5:19

"For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous"

In the Greek text (please check it out), we have "hoi polloi" (many) used twice, with the definite article "hoi".

It is very clear from this verse, that through Adam's sin, "many", that is, "mankind" "were made sinners". Now, it goes on to say, that by the "obedience of one", that is Jesus Christ, "many" "shall be made righteous" In both cases in the Greek, the definite article is used wiht "many" (hoi polloi)

We know that "polloi" in the Greek, with the article, has the meaning "the majority", or, "all mankind". If it is true in the first part of this verse, that "all mankind" is meant, then why not in the second part, where the language is exactly the same?

Now, run for your Calvinistic commentaries!!!

 

I must add here, John Calvin's remarks from his commenraty on Romans 5:19. Note how he completely avoids dealing with the words. Typical Calvinistic treatment!

"This is no tautology, but a necessary explanation of the former verse. For he shows that we are guilty through the offense of one man, in such a manner as not to be ourselves innocent. He had said before, that we are condemned; but that no one might claim for himself innocence, he also subjoined, that every one is condemned because he is a sinner. And then, as he declares that we are made righteous through the obedience of Christ, we hence conclude that Christ, in satisfying the Father, has provided a righteousness for us. It then follows, that righteousness is in Christ, and that it is to be received by us as what peculiarly belongs to him. He at the same time shows what sort of righteousness it is, by calling it obedience. And here let us especially observe what we must bring into God's presence, if we seek to be justified by works, even obedience to the law, not to this or to that part, but in every respect perfect; for when a just man falls, all his former righteousness will not be remembered. We may also hence learn, how false are the schemes which they take to pacify God, who of themselves devise what they obtrude on him. For then only we truly worship him when we follow what he has commanded us, and render obedience to his word. Away then with those who confidently lay claim to the righteousness of works, which cannot otherwise exist than when there is a full and complete observance of the law; and it is certain that this is nowhere to be found. We also learn, that they are madly foolish who vaunt before God of works invented by themselves, which he regards as the filthiest things; for obedience is better than sacrifices."

 

Indeed, through Adam sin entered the world.
Through Jesus, the penalty for Sin was Paid. That does not mean that even one human being is saved! It simply means that NO man dies because of sin because that penalty was paid, ONCE for ALL. That eliminates SIN from the SALVATION EQUATION! It does not prevent man from dying for some other reason!

Scriptures tell us that whoever's name is NOT FOUND in the book of Life, is judged and Cast into the lake of fire, the second death. That sure sounds like dying to me! But it was not death because of sin, but because of lack of faith on the part of the one cast into the lake of fire.

Thus it is Icthus, that Romans 5:19 does not mean that ALL will be SAVED! But, the atonement for Sin made by Jesus makes it possible for "Whosoever Believeth in Him, to have Everlasting life, because the penalty for sin has been paid in full.

OUR Salvation is through faith, and FAITH ALONE!