Four Points of Calvinism in one verse

Wes, Outwest, I DO NOT hold to the heresy that all of mankind will be saved, but only those who have put their faith in Jesus Christ as their personal Saviour.

My line of argument is with Daniel, who foolishly gives one verse, in which he assumes quite wrongly, that it settles the matter of Calvinism as being the correct way.

I am not sure about your position, but I am no Calvinist

 

Icthus,
I'm sorry I did not make it clearer to you that I was not stomping your stuff, I was attempting to amplify the truth you were pointing out.

The text of Romans without "the rest of the story" clearly supports Calvinism. However the text of Romans in light of "the rest of the story" in no way supports Calvinism.

 

Fish,

Paul simple states a FACT. Those of US who persevere to the end are saved. Those who don't persevere are not... No Calvinist has a problem with a CONDITIONAL FACTUAL statement. Which it is.... Your problem is you are implying meaning into a simple fact. Paul did not say: "Those who are SAVED persevere, if you don't you will lose your salvation.....

These are warning for all of us not TO BE DECEIVED!! God knows His elect, We do not. We don't even know our own hearts... We can easily deceive ourselves and "think" we are believers and go on with our sinning and say "We are saved!" These verses are there to not allow that in the church. The reason there is warnings like these in the Bible is BECAUSE there is ASSURANCE that those who are elect ARE SAVED, Because Jesus is a perfect Saviour not an enabler. Those with depraved minds or self deceived minds could use these to do what they wish... but these warnings provide US a reality check to be HOLY, and not deceive ourselves.

 

Fish,
Don't be a hypocrite, if anything YOU have to run to commentaries since you don't know Greek....

You have made this say FAR to much than what you wanted it to... And I see that you figured out your error even thou it is not an error if you go by what the text says.. it's just not what you WANT it to say.... To bad you just don't go by what the text says and obey it...

The "many" does not mean ALL mankind but a majority. If Paul used ALL mankind he would of included Christ... Thus all but one... the majority... but for some reason you want to equate the two as being exact... go hang yourself. You are forced to say the SAME many in the first phrase are linked to the second phrase who are "made righteous" !! Thus you have the birth of universalism. You just reenacted history...
If you don't know it, you are bound to repeat it... Pelagianist ended up do this too.... you see, if you defend one heresy, you are bound to interpret verses that create other heresies...

You can't "make up" the rules as you go along.

Sorry... by ADAM sin came in to EVERY MAN (but CHRIST) so, by Christ shall the elect be made righteous.

There's your interpretation proper.

 

Rc,
you are equating "every man" and "the elect"

So by Adam "every man", by Christ "the elect" Amazingly True!

 

Every man is a sinner, every man is born in sin.
Jesus is excluded because He is the begotten Son of God.

 

No, Christ was not Born of ADAM! He was born of Adam's seed, but His Father Is God the Father.

Every Man IN CHRIST is Elect!

 

OK Johnp, are we going to wring this out? Jesus is God the Son, who dwelt among men, Emmanuel! God with us! Jesus is the divisor!

If you want to count him as mere mortal created being, that is your choice, but I cannot look at Jesus and anything lower than Divine God!

 

I can't believe that some of you are questioning the righteousness of Christ. As much as Calvinist claim to believe that Christ is who He said He was. It seems you attempting to Judge the Lord Himself.
Did any of you notice that Christ never call Mary mother. The reason is she isn't the mother of God. Christ was sinless and was not the son of men, because He wasn't the son of men. He didn't inherit the sin of Adam. If he had His blood would not have been adequate to Atone for the sins of the world
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

Wes.

Oh yea! The Alamo! You can be Davy Crockett. I'll be Santa.
Was it in error that you use my name as I have not been on this thread yet I think?

The Son of Man/The Son of God. Everything that man is Jesus is without sin. Everything God is Jesus is. Everything Jesus is is God. His Humanity is God.

No one suggests you look at Jesus as less than God. A false accusation? as mere mortal created being He died did He not? John 12:32 But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."
He was created in Mary's womb was He not? A mere mortal? PHP 2:7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. Got that? In human likeness not in God's. Made just like His brothers, "Heb 2:17 For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way... But remained God! God created Himself in the likeness of sinful man! That blows you out of the water with your 'man is made in the likeness of God'! Does it not? I'll say it again, God created Himself in the likeness of sinful man!
Gal 4:4 But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law
Romans 8:3 For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering
A mere mortal maybe but God became a mere mortal yet remained God. (Below I venture into the KJV because it reads nicer.)
2 Cor 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
I will ask you this, "Did Christ have to reconcile Himself to Himself?"
John 12:32 But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself." Did He draw Himself?

That is not my choice but scripture. I have no choice but to think He was in everyway just like me! His connection to our Father is what our connection can be like. "Heb 2:17 For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way... You can walk on water with that faith.

Matt 2:11 On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him...
A mere God in nappies, diapers I think you call them.
He was born of God, " LK 1:35 The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God."

Since you say that Jesus is the Divisor would you be willing to explain what a divisor is as I have not heard this word before in connection with Jesus.

As the God/Man.

If you cannot lump Christ into an 'all men' verse you need to evaluate if it really means every single man or not. (whetstone)
It's very simple isn't it?

johnp.

 

ILUVLIGHT.

JN 19:25 Near the cross of Jesus stood his mother, his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. 26 When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, "Dear woman, here is your son," 27 and to the disciple, "Here is your mother." From that time on, this disciple took her into his home.
Jesus caring for His mother placing her into the hands of a trusted friend so that she would have a man to protect her.
The word of God says, "Near the cross of Jesus stood his mother...
The word of God says, "Luke 2:34 Then Simeon blessed them and said to Mary, his mother: "This child is destined to cause the falling and rising of many in Israel, and to be a sign that will be spoken against, 35 so that the thoughts of many hearts will be revealed. And a sword will pierce your own soul too."

You say, "Christ was sinless and was not the son of men, because He wasn't the son of men."
JN 1:50 Jesus said, "You believe because I told you I saw you under the fig tree. You shall see greater things than that." 51 He then added, "I tell you the truth, you shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man."

But you can't see that?

He had a fallen nature, a thing not required to be fully Human.

You err badly if you think God is bound by the laws that bind us! His laws are for us not for Him. He is bound by His own will as we are bound to ours. He is bound by His own will and not by His law to us as we are.

Why did He have to be made perfect then? HEB 2:10 In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering.
He had a fallen nature because He ...made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. PHP 2:7.

It was a Son of David that David called Lord.

johnp.

 

The problem AGAIN is gentlemen, the text (especially in the Greek) explicitly implies something that goes completely against the Arminianism view. Since their view is not based on Scripture that do what many other heresies do... completely ignore the text and put their presuppositions above the Word instead of allowing the Word to shape their view. And as far as the Greek in the first phrase, it doesn't even imply "ALL mankind" but All of ANY kind. AND it is NOT linked to the ANY kind in the second phrase. So, even if they don't want to include Christ AS man it still doesn't equate to the All or SOME of the kind in the second phrase.
Either way they are incorrect. Though in this sense it IS understandable that they are linked. But it is proper that Jesus was MAN and is needed to be Excluded in the first phrase or Paul would have the gnostic problem on His hands as Whetstone commented. If Paul DID NOT include Christ or knew his receivers might have taken it this way, he would of modified, or expounded on that phrase, which he did not. Implying that Christ was included in the first phrase.

 

Johnp;
There is a huge difference between being the son of a man and being Mary's son. Mary was a virgin when she conceived She conceived from the Spirit of God not of man. And like I said He didn't call her mother even though it was proper for John to call her that.
So you believe Christ was a sinner. It would seem then, that places you in the catagory of not believing He was who He said He was. Christ is referred to as the second Adam because he was born sinless. Only a perfect lamb can be a sacrificed for sin. Sin makes one less than perfect.
2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
1Pe 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
1Pe 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
Stop implying that Christ sinned.
He was not born in sin because the seed came directly from God.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

Hello whetstone.

I'm not sure what you mean by saying you agree with Mike!
I'm not sure what you mean by saying he was the seed of a woman.
And I'm not sure if you want this point raised any more or not. I think it is an important factor, the Humanity of Christ. If Jesus is not fully Human then He maybe excluded from the 'all men'. The one you agree with has already said, "He wasn't the son of men."
Christ couldn't be the propitiation for his own sins... Well this needs to be looked at. I did not say that He was a sinner but that He had a fallen nature.

Good to meet you man!

johnp.

 

JN 19:25 Near the cross of Jesus stood his mother, his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. 26 When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, "Dear woman, here is your son," 27 and to the disciple, "Here is your mother." From that time on, this disciple took her into his home.
And like I said Jesus calls her Mother in scripture! But you don't believe scripture do yer?
Now let us see you say, "Jesus did call Mary Mother." Please.

You see whetstone? There is a denial of the Christ's humanity!

And there it is again! A denial of the Humanity of Christ. Either all men came from Adam or there are two species.

johnp.