Four Unities Prove 1st Century Rapture: Good News for all Christians

[asterisktom]

Do you have a link to info on this Bible? I did not find it on Amazon.

The original edition was called the Fulfilled Covenant Bible, 2013.
https://www.amazon.com/Fulfilled-Covenant-Bible-Michael-Day/dp/1467558079

FWIW I found a link to my Ezra-Nehemiah intro here:
PREFACE TO EZRA-NEHEMIAH

The newer edition, TKB, came out in 2016. Maybe if you search for "Michael Day" also.

I just now found this:
Bible Prophecy Fulfilled

A caveat concerning this Bible: After I contributed to this Bible (I did the introductory commentary on Ezra and Nehemiah) I have since come to see that much of what I call "mainstream" Preterism is also in error. Some of the contributors to this Bible clearly belong to this dubious mainstream.

More on your other comments later.

 

[robycop3]

Do you have a link to info on this Bible? I did not find it on Amazon. (I found a Kingdom NT by N. T. Wright, which I assume is not the same.) If correct, the historical claims that Papias and Polycarp were disciples of John, the apostle, would be spurious. He would no longer have been on the earth to have discipled them. If I thought it (John raptured before AD 70) could be proved from the Bible, then the historical claims would not really matter. However, it seems odd that Christians of the next generation after Papias and Polycarp would have believed their claims if there was knowledge of such a rapture. What sources in particular would be some of these to look at?

I'm also interested in intel on this Kingdom Bible.

Had the rapture occurred in 70 AD, Christianity would've had to have started over from scratch, as there wouldn't've been any preachers or anyone else who would've read & spread the Gospel. The 70 AD rapture is just a pret tall tale.

Update: I found this bible under "Michael E. Day Bible" on Yahoo. Seems it's just a pret version, trying to say the eschatological events were "about to happen" at that time. And Mr. Day's bio on that site says he became a prophet. (RED FLAG!) I'll "shut up" & let you read it for yourself.

 

[robycop3]

This was the curses of Lev 26 & Dt 28 which followed the Jews for centuries. Satan bound.

Starting with Napoleon they were progressively 'loosed' from those curses beginning early 19th century: Emancipation Satan loosed.

From the time til they were booted from Judea til the nazis fell, they were hated & persecuted wherever they went.

And the culmination of their punishment was the holocaust. After the nazis fell, they became stronger almost overnight.

 

[kyredneck]

After the nazis fell, they became stronger almost overnight.

Trust me, they were powerful and influential before the Nazis fell. They even stepped back and allowed the Holocaust to happen knowing that Jewry would benefit from it in the long game.

 

[Yeshua1]

Yes.

The one done by NT Wrong?

 

[Yeshua1]

This, passage does not, however, present any form of rapture or return of Christ in 70CE.

BOTH we who hold to CT and Dispy believe that the full preterist version is plain wrong!

 

[Yeshua1]

Don't be tiresome. "Some pret author" did not tell me. I first was convinced of the early date by Philip Schaff in his History of the Christian Church. He was not preterist. In the first edition of his books he had assumed a later date for Revelation. But later, upon further study, he did what very few authors had the courage to do - he published a retraction in the next edition. He convinced me while I was still Amill.

ANY historical proof theist the Church experienced the resurrection from the graves in AD 70?

 

[Yeshua1]

I'm also interested in intel on this Kingdom Bible.

Had the rapture occurred in 70 AD, Christianity would've had to have started over from scratch, as there wouldn't've been any preachers or anyone else who would've read & spread the Gospel. The 70 AD rapture is just a pret tall tale.

Update: I found this bible under "Michael E. Day Bible" on Yahoo. Seems it's just a pret version, trying to say the eschatological events were "about to happen" at that time. And Mr. Day's bio on that site says he became a prophet. (RED FLAG!) I'll "shut up" & let you read it for yourself.

Modern day prophet? No wonder his theology is messed up!

 

[Yeshua1]

Do you have a link to info on this Bible? I did not find it on Amazon. (I found a Kingdom NT by N. T. Wright, which I assume is not the same.) If correct, the historical claims that Papias and Polycarp were disciples of John, the apostle, would be spurious. He would no longer have been on the earth to have discipled them. If I thought it (John raptured before AD 70) could be proved from the Bible, then the historical claims would not really matter. However, it seems odd that Christians of the next generation after Papias and Polycarp would have believed their claims if there was knowledge of such a rapture. What sources in particular would be some of these to look at?

How come NONE of the Ecf ever mentioned that the second coming had already happened then?

 

[AustinC]

Perhaps we haven't reached metaphorical 70AD, which explains why no early Christians wrote about the 2nd coming having already happened...

 

[robycop3]

Perhaps we haven't reached metaphorical 70AD, which explains why no early Christians wrote about the 2nd coming having already happened...

They didn't write about it because it HASN'T happened !

 

[asterisktom]

One author outta 1000.

Since you like to read, Robycop, I found some more books for you. All of these writers maintain a pre 70 AD date for Revelation. So much for your one out of 1000.

From "What Happened in AD 70?, Ed Stevens
----------------
Pre-70 Date for Revelation:

Abauzit, Frank. Essay Sur L’Apocalypse. Geneva: 1730-1733. He also wrote: Discours Historique Sur L’Apocalypse, trans. into English in Miscellanies of ... Abauzit, London: 1774.

Auberlen, Karl August. Daniel and Revelation in Their Mutual Relation, Andover, 1857.

Bahnsen, Greg L. “The Book of Revelation: Its Setting” (unpub. 1984) Bleek, Friedrich (1793-1859). Lectures on the Apocalypse, edited by Hossbach, 1862. It was translated into English, 1875.

Davidson, Samuel. The Doctrine of the Last Things, 1882. See his article on “The Book of Revelation” in John Kitto’s two-volume Cyclopedia of Biblical Literature, New York: Ivison & Phinney, 1855. See also his: An Introduction to the Study of the N.T. (first ed. 1848-1851), and his Sacred Hermeneutics, Edinburgh, 1843.

Edersheim, Alfred. The Temple Its Ministry and Services As They Were at the Time of Jesus Christ, Grand Rapids: Kregel Pub., 1997.

Field, Grenville O. Opened Seals — Open Gates. 1895.

Gebhardt, H. The Doctrine of the Apocalypse. Edinburgh: 1878.

Glasgow, James. The Apocalypse Translated and Expounded.

Edinburgh: 1872.

Guericke, —. Einleit, ins. N. Test.

Henderson, B. W. The Life and Principate of the Emperor Nero. pub.

1903. Also, Five Roman Emperors, Cambridge: 1927.

Hort, F. J. A. Judaistic Christianity, Cambridge & London, 1894. Also, The Apocalypse of St. John, 1908.

Lightfoot, J. B. Biblical Essays, 1867-1872. See his other writings.

Lücke, F. Finleitung in dee Offenborung des Johannes, 2 Aufl., 1852.

M’Ilvaine, Charles Pettit. The Evidences of Christianity. Smith, English

& Co., Philadelphia: 1861.

Neander, August. History of the Planting & Training of the Christian Church. (2 vols.) 1889.

Peake, A. S. The Revelation of John, London: Holborn Press, 1919.

Renan, J. E. L’Antichrist, Paris: 1873.

Reuss, Edward. History of Christian Theology In The Apostolic Age, Strasburg: 1880.

Robinson, Edward (1794-1863). Bibliotheca Sacra, Vol. 3, pp. 532, 540ff, 1843. Also Harmony of the Four Gospels. Boston: 1853.

Robinson, John A. T. Redating the New Testament, Westminster Press, Philadelphia, 1976.

Salmon, G. Introduction to the New Testament.

Sanday, William. Bampton Lectures, 1893.

Schaff, Philip. History of the Christian Church, Vol. 1, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1910.

Selwyn, Edward Condon. The Authorship of the Apocalypse, and also The Christian Prophets & The Prophetic Apocalypse, both pub. in Cambridge, England, 1900.

Simcox, William Henry. The Revelation of St. John the Divine, Cambridge, 1894.

59

Torrey, Chas. C. The Apocalypse of John, New Haven, Conn. Yale Univ. Press, 1958. Also, The Four Gospels, New York, 1947.

Westcott, B. F. The Gospel According To St. John, London: 1902. Also Epistle to the Hebrews, London: 1889.

 

[asterisktom]

One author outta 1000.

And this is also from the book just cited. Looks like you will have to revise your number.

"
Several of these theologians also believed in a pre-70 fulfillment of most or all of Revelation. And these are not just obscure and unknown persons! Most of these are in the

“Who’s Who” of Biblical scholarship. The ones boldfaced below are especially recommended for further study. Many of their books for which we were able to find information are listed in the Bibliography.

Some of them may still be in print, or else available in digital form online somewhere.

Andreas (fifth century), Arethas (tenth century), Theophylact (1071), Luis De Alcasar (1554-1613), Henry Hammond (1653), John Lightfoot (1658), Hugo Grotius (1664), Sir Isaac Newton (1727), Frank Abauzit (1733), Hardouin (1741), J. J. Wettstein (1751), Bishop Thomas Newton (1754), Harenburg (1759), Johann Gottfried Von Herder(1779), E. G. Hartwig (1780), Eichorn (1791), N. Nisbett (1802), J. C.

L. Gieseler (c. 1820), Frederick Bleek (1820), F. H. A. Ewald (1828), F.

J. Züllig (1834), J. A. Stephenson (1838), Moses Stuart (1845), Albert Schwegler (1846), Wm. M. L. Dewette (1848), Gottfried Friedrich Lücke (1852), Karl A. Auberlen (1857), Düsterdieck (1859), Charles Pettit M’llvaine (1859), F. D. Maurice(1861), Philip S. Desprez (1861), Charles Wordsworth (1866), J. B. Lightfoot (1867), B. Weiss (1869), Henry Cowles (1871), James Glasgow (1872), H. Gebhardt (1873), J. E. Renan (1873), A. Hilgenfeld (1875), A. Immer (1877), Dean Plumptre (1877), James M. McDonald (1877), James Stuart Russell (1878), Robert Young (1822-1888), Israel P. Warren (1878), Alexander Brown, R. W. Dale (1878), J. T. Harris, J. H. Noyes, Thomas Rattray (1878), Edward Reuss (1880), Samuel Davidson (1882), B. F. Westcott (1882), Milton S. Terry (1883), William Hurte (1884), August Neander (1889), F. W. Farrar, C. A. Goodhart (1891), A. Plummer (1891), T. Randell (1891), W. H. Simcox (1893), W.

Sanday (1893), F. J. A. Hort (1894), William Newton Clarke (1894), E. Hampden Cook (1894), G. O. Field (1895), John David Michaelis, Philip Schaff, E. P. Gould (1896), G. Salmon Dean Stanley Tilloch, F.

C. Baur, Aube, Krenkel, Reville, Volkmar, Bunsen, Rudolf Stier, Guericke, Niermeyer, Hentenius, Edward Robinson, Dr. Dollinger, E. C.

Selwyn (1900), William S. Urmy (1900), B. W. Henderson (1903), H.

J. Holtzman (1912), G. Edmundson (1913), A. S. Peake (1919), A.

Weigall (1930), A. D. Momigliano (1934), Ulrich Beeson (1956), C. C.

Torrey (1958), K. A. Eckhardt (1961), James Hamilton (1962), Jay Adams (1966), Foy Wallace(1966), Max R. King (1971), Franklin Camp (1974), J. Massyngberde Ford (1975), Ray Hawk, John A.T.

Robinson (1976), Jessie E. Mills, Jr. (1978), Edward E. Stevens (1978), Cornelius Vanderwaal (1979), Burton Coffman (1979), Timothy A.

James (1982), David H. Chilton (1985), Arthur M. Ogden (1985), Greg L. Bahnsen (1989), Kenneth L. Gentry, Jr. (1989), Ron McRay (1990), Janice E. Leonard (1991), John Noe (1991), Joseph R. Balyeat (1991), Kenneth J. Davies (1992), Don Preston(1992), Gary DeMar (1994), Albert R. Pigeon(1994), Eugene Fadeley (1995), Joseph M.

Daniels (1996), John L. Bray (1996), Arthur Melanson (1998), Robert Charles Sproul (1998), Daniel E. Harden (1999), Randall E. Otto (2000), James A. Henry (2002), Samuel M. Frost (2002), Tom and Steve Kloske (2003), Kurt M. Simmons (2003), Brian L. Martin (2004), Ian D. Harding(2005), Michael Alan Nichols (2010), Glenn L. Hill (2010), Stephen Temple (2012), Tony Everett Denton (2012), Charles S. Meeks (2013), and an ever growing number of many others. It seems that around the beginning of the twenty-first century (A.D. 2001), writers and writings about the preterist view began to increase dramatically, and it shows no signs of slowing down any time soon."

 

[asterisktom]

What sources in particular would be some of these to look at?

This response has mainly to do with the silent period after the Parousia. These are some sources that may be of interest. More can be found at International Preterist Association.


Final Decade, Ed Stevens. PDF 1st. ed.:
"Why is there such a disparity in representation between the heretical writings and the orthodox writings? Surely, if there were any pre-70 Christians still around in the decades immediately after AD 70, they would have been challenging the heretics and claiming the fulfillment. Even if their writings did not survive, we would still know about their testimony from others who knew about it – just like we know about the heretical writings (even though many of them were destroyed). But there is a strange lack of writings here for the true Christians. Church historians have noticed this silence and have labeled the generation right after AD 70 as "an obscure dark period" (Dr. Wayne McCown, lecture on Sept. 16, 2004). The New Testament scholar Dr. Charles Hill noted that “an early Christian writer who is even aware of a hyper-preterist eschatology in the church has yet to be found” (Keith Mathison, When Shall These Things Be? p. 107). p.223-224

"In my study of the history of the first century church, I was profoundly struck by the radical contrast between the intense missionary and literary activity of the saints before AD 66, and their utter silence and absence afterward. Many patristic scholars have noticed this same contrast and commented on it. They refer to the first few decades after AD 70 as being a dark or obscure period. John A. T. Robinson compares it to a train entering a tunnel. When it finally reappeared out of the tunnel, it had undergone some significant changes, but we are at a loss to know how and why those changes occurred. There are no writings from any of the pre-70 saints to tell us what happened during that tunnel period. The church historians refer to this as a strange or awkward silence." p.234

What Happened in AD 70? , Ed Stevens:
"Dr. Robinson says that the absence of all allusions to AD 70 by the NT writers is “as significant as the silence for Sherlock Holmes of the dog that did not bark” (p. 13). The NT writers did not mention AD 70 because it had not happened yet! All of the NT books were written before it happened."

Redating the New Testament, John A. T. Robinson:
“One of the oddest facts about the NT is that ... the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70 ... is never once mentioned as a past fact.” p.13

Expectations Demand a First Century Rapture, Ed Stevens, PDF
Taken to Heaven in A.D. 70, Ian D. Harding
The Early Days of Christianity, Farrar, Frederic W.

 

[robycop3]

And this is also from the book just cited. Looks like you will have to revise your number.

"
Several of these theologians also believed in a pre-70 fulfillment of most or all of Revelation. And these are not just obscure and unknown persons! Most of these are in the

“Who’s Who” of Biblical scholarship. The ones boldfaced below are especially recommended for further study. Many of their books for which we were able to find information are listed in the Bibliography.

Some of them may still be in print, or else available in digital form online somewhere.

Andreas (fifth century), Arethas (tenth century), Theophylact (1071), Luis De Alcasar (1554-1613), Henry Hammond (1653), John Lightfoot (1658), Hugo Grotius (1664), Sir Isaac Newton (1727), Frank Abauzit (1733), Hardouin (1741), J. J. Wettstein (1751), Bishop Thomas Newton (1754), Harenburg (1759), Johann Gottfried Von Herder(1779), E. G. Hartwig (1780), Eichorn (1791), N. Nisbett (1802), J. C.

L. Gieseler (c. 1820), Frederick Bleek (1820), F. H. A. Ewald (1828), F.

J. Züllig (1834), J. A. Stephenson (1838), Moses Stuart (1845), Albert Schwegler (1846), Wm. M. L. Dewette (1848), Gottfried Friedrich Lücke (1852), Karl A. Auberlen (1857), Düsterdieck (1859), Charles Pettit M’llvaine (1859), F. D. Maurice(1861), Philip S. Desprez (1861), Charles Wordsworth (1866), J. B. Lightfoot (1867), B. Weiss (1869), Henry Cowles (1871), James Glasgow (1872), H. Gebhardt (1873), J. E. Renan (1873), A. Hilgenfeld (1875), A. Immer (1877), Dean Plumptre (1877), James M. McDonald (1877), James Stuart Russell (1878), Robert Young (1822-1888), Israel P. Warren (1878), Alexander Brown, R. W. Dale (1878), J. T. Harris, J. H. Noyes, Thomas Rattray (1878), Edward Reuss (1880), Samuel Davidson (1882), B. F. Westcott (1882), Milton S. Terry (1883), William Hurte (1884), August Neander (1889), F. W. Farrar, C. A. Goodhart (1891), A. Plummer (1891), T. Randell (1891), W. H. Simcox (1893), W.

Sanday (1893), F. J. A. Hort (1894), William Newton Clarke (1894), E. Hampden Cook (1894), G. O. Field (1895), John David Michaelis, Philip Schaff, E. P. Gould (1896), G. Salmon Dean Stanley Tilloch, F.

C. Baur, Aube, Krenkel, Reville, Volkmar, Bunsen, Rudolf Stier, Guericke, Niermeyer, Hentenius, Edward Robinson, Dr. Dollinger, E. C.

Selwyn (1900), William S. Urmy (1900), B. W. Henderson (1903), H.

J. Holtzman (1912), G. Edmundson (1913), A. S. Peake (1919), A.

Weigall (1930), A. D. Momigliano (1934), Ulrich Beeson (1956), C. C.

Torrey (1958), K. A. Eckhardt (1961), James Hamilton (1962), Jay Adams (1966), Foy Wallace(1966), Max R. King (1971), Franklin Camp (1974), J. Massyngberde Ford (1975), Ray Hawk, John A.T.

Robinson (1976), Jessie E. Mills, Jr. (1978), Edward E. Stevens (1978), Cornelius Vanderwaal (1979), Burton Coffman (1979), Timothy A.

James (1982), David H. Chilton (1985), Arthur M. Ogden (1985), Greg L. Bahnsen (1989), Kenneth L. Gentry, Jr. (1989), Ron McRay (1990), Janice E. Leonard (1991), John Noe (1991), Joseph R. Balyeat (1991), Kenneth J. Davies (1992), Don Preston(1992), Gary DeMar (1994), Albert R. Pigeon(1994), Eugene Fadeley (1995), Joseph M.

Daniels (1996), John L. Bray (1996), Arthur Melanson (1998), Robert Charles Sproul (1998), Daniel E. Harden (1999), Randall E. Otto (2000), James A. Henry (2002), Samuel M. Frost (2002), Tom and Steve Kloske (2003), Kurt M. Simmons (2003), Brian L. Martin (2004), Ian D. Harding(2005), Michael Alan Nichols (2010), Glenn L. Hill (2010), Stephen Temple (2012), Tony Everett Denton (2012), Charles S.

Meeks (2013), and an ever growing number of many others. It seems that around the beginning of the twenty-first century (A.D. 2001), writers and writings about the preterist view began to increase dramatically, and it shows no signs of slowing down any time soon."

No matter how many authors support the pret view, it's still wrong. History and reality are the ace & king of trumps. No matter who tries to shoehorn what past events into the eschatological prophecies, they're no substitutes for the acrual events as prophesied in Scripture, which haven't yet occurred.

Since Paul's day, when did anyone enter a temple in Jerusalem & declare himself God, or set his statue up in that temple, as a false prophet supernaturally made it speak?

Since the Rev was written, when has anyone brought virtually the entire earth under his rule & demand to be worshipped under pain of death??

When did all life in the sea die?

When did Jesus return, seen by all, to cast the antichrist & false prophet alive into the LOF, & take over the rule of the world?

 

[robycop3]

This response has mainly to do with the silent period after the Parousia. These are some sources that may be of interest. More can be found at International Preterist Association.


Final Decade, Ed Stevens. PDF 1st. ed.:
"Why is there such a disparity in representation between the heretical writings and the orthodox writings? Surely, if there were any pre-70 Christians still around in the decades immediately after AD 70, they would have been challenging the heretics and claiming the fulfillment. Even if their writings did not survive, we would still know about their testimony from others who knew about it – just like we know about the heretical writings (even though many of them were destroyed). But there is a strange lack of writings here for the true Christians. Church historians have noticed this silence and have labeled the generation right after AD 70 as "an obscure dark period" (Dr. Wayne McCown, lecture on Sept. 16, 2004). The New Testament scholar Dr. Charles Hill noted that “an early Christian writer who is even aware of a hyper-preterist eschatology in the church has yet to be found” (Keith Mathison, When Shall These Things Be? p. 107). p.223-224

"In my study of the history of the first century church, I was profoundly struck by the radical contrast between the intense missionary and literary activity of the saints before AD 66, and their utter silence and absence afterward. Many patristic scholars have noticed this same contrast and commented on it. They refer to the first few decades after AD 70 as being a dark or obscure period. John A. T. Robinson compares it to a train entering a tunnel. When it finally reappeared out of the tunnel, it had undergone some significant changes, but we are at a loss to know how and why those changes occurred. There are no writings from any of the pre-70 saints to tell us what happened during that tunnel period. The church historians refer to this as a strange or awkward silence." p.234

What Happened in AD 70? , Ed Stevens:
"Dr. Robinson says that the absence of all allusions to AD 70 by the NT writers is “as significant as the silence for Sherlock Holmes of the dog that did not bark” (p. 13). The NT writers did not mention AD 70 because it had not happened yet! All of the NT books were written before it happened."

Redating the New Testament, John A. T. Robinson:
“One of the oddest facts about the NT is that ... the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70 ... is never once mentioned as a past fact.” p.13

Expectations Demand a First Century Rapture, Ed Stevens, PDF
Taken to Heaven in A.D. 70, Ian D. Harding
The Early Days of Christianity, Farrar, Frederic W.

The parousia hasn't yet happened. When it does, it'll be a physical, visible event, in seen by all, as Jesus said, as He returns in great power & glory..

 

[Salty]

Six hour warning
This thread will be closed no sooner than 1230 am (EDT) Tue, / 930 PM PDT (Mon)

 

[AustinC]

They didn't write about it because it HASN'T happened !

I know. I was oozing sarcasm...

 

[rlvaughn]

The newer edition, TKB, came out in 2016.

What changes were made from the original edition to the newer edition?

This response has mainly to do with the silent period after the Parousia. These are some sources that may be of interest. More can be found at International Preterist Association.

Would this site be a good representative of full preterism? If so, who or where is a good representative of partial preterism?

Finally, does someone have to have a Wordpress account to access your blog?

Thanks.

 

[Salty]

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