Fourth Estate, the fourth branch of government

EG,

They did not require it as part of their ratification; as I noted and as the link you gave states,

Re your statement that

Virginia's ratification, as stated in the link you sent, notes that they were

Also, you said that

However, it actually states, per the link you sent,

Religious liberty was therefore not the only freedom cited. In fact, the wording re denomination appears rather to validate religious establishment (am curious about that, though, since Va. had essentially done away with an established church by then; hmmmm...)

It was just one of many protections sought. It didn't of itself lead to a Bill of Rights. As I said the ratification debate over the Constitution included repeated and very vocal demands for a Bill of Rights.

 

EG,

For starters, I suggest reading the two volume Debate on the Constitution, published by Library of America.

As I showed, even the link you provided shows that they did not make ratification conditional on amendments, but only proposed them, following the pattern set by Massachusetts and followed thereafter. There is nothing in the historical record to suggest that their ratification was conditional, including their ratification instrument.

They were indeed, but as you stated, they were the tenth state, not the ninth, as required by the Constitution for the Constitution to become effective, New Hampshire being the ninth. Nevertheless they were still key, as their rejection of the Constitution would likely impact North Carolina which rejected it and because they were the largest state in size. They were also very important in which way New York would go, as the anti-Feds dominated the ratification convention there. News of Va.'s ratification was carried quickly to NY by courier and Hamilton (the Constitution's chief proponent in NY) was kept constantly informed of the status of Va.'s convention.

 

Except that in that thread we're not discussing how we came to have the Bill of Rights but what interpretive tools should be used in ascertaining the meaning of the Constitution. We're certainly off topic for this particular thread; I would suggest a new thread. How about I start one on the origin of the Bill of Rights?

 

It's technical. The Religious Freedoms Restoration Act, signed by President Clinton, was overturned by the Rhenquist court, because it limited the power of government to restrict religion. To minimize the effect of that ruling, Clinton issued an executive order to the justice department to intervene in any cases where religious freedom was abused. Bush, to his credit, broke with the right wing and renewed the order. So far, we still have our religious freedoms, but we are already one justice short on the Supreme Court.

Could be, under the Patriot Act.

Turns out that it's legal to tell lies, with a few exceptions.

 

Actually, EG, you started this thread, it's certainly up to you if you want to continue it here rather than going into another one.

 

Aye, will abide by your wish and look forward to discussing the BoR with you on the other thread.

 

This wasn't directed at me, but to whom are you specifically referring when you declare that "lying to the people is just plain wrong?" Would that include the lies of the right wing as well?

By the way, since YOU have introduced them into the conversation, how in the world does the ACLU fit into this discussion? That sounds like a statement I would hear on FoxNews at 8:00 PM EDT.........

BiR (in Charlotte)

 

And speaking of media lying to the public, what about Fox News Channel. :tear:

 

It only took y'all six pages to come up with FNC? I'm disappointed in my liberal brothers here.

 

[Discontinue topic of conversation]

Greetings FTR:

I was told that when I moved to The Commonwealth that the Baptists OWN Virginia. Now that I live here, I would argue that the Old Dominion is a very Episcopal state, and always has been. As a matter of fact, the Episcopal church on the original site of Jamestown Island (the national park, not the replica that sits next to the isthmus, which also has a church in the replica of the original settlement) is still in use to this day, as is Bruton Parish in Williamsburg... on the Duke of Gloucester).

I am currently enrolled at the College of William & Mary. It is so neat to walk the campus where George Wythe taught such brilliant minds as Thomas Jefferson and John Marshall. I just get giddy thinking about it!!

Hope all is well with you and yours,
BiR (actually in Charlotte.... and it is just as HOT as Richmond!)

[Resume topic of conversation]

(revisions in italics)

 

Cut me some slack, Brother: I have been on the road extensively the past few weeks!!

But seriously, why was the ACLU introduced into this discussion?

God's Best to you, FTR,
BiR (your LIBERAL Brother in Christ)

 

Charlotte, another of my old hometowns. OT Tangent follows:

I remember Charlotte in the early 70s, when Big WAYS 61 was the top radio station, followed by the powerhouse signal of 1110 WBT. The Carolina Cougars played ABA Basketball and the Charlotte Checkers kept hockey fans on the edge of their seats at the old Charlotte Coliseum. Ahhh, the good old days.

Off topic tangent over. Carry on.

 

OK, continuing the trend, off topic again:

What are you studying at W & M, BiR? What a beautiful campus. I went to my god-daughter's HS (York County) graduation there. I've never been to Jefferson's UVA, but it would be hard to beat William and Mary for beauty.

Actually being in Virginia does that to me. The home of some of America's first and most wonderful patriots: Washington, Jefferson, Madison, Wythe, Mason, Henry, Randolph, Marshall, on and on, and of course my favorite, Madison...

As always, be careful in your travels, my friend.


Now back to our regularly scheduled programming, in progress...

 

Not so fast......

I am getting ready to take a history course (an elective), and I am laying the groundwork for pursuing my M.B.A. at the school.

Indeed, it is. I really love walking around campus when I get the chance. I have to drive about 45 miles from Richmond for classes, but it's worth it!!

UVA is in Charlottesville (of course), and that is about an hour west of Richmond. I took my mountain bike there one Saturday and drove around the campus. It is definitely worth the trip.

I'm with you on that one - I have been here for three years and still feel like a tourist.

You forgot former President James Monroe - who is buried across the James River from where I live (he is actually buried near former President John Tyler). If you are ever there on the weekend and see a guy cleaning up around their graves, come over and introduce yourself! I usually stop to see them on every other Saturday afternoon.

You really need to come for a visit. I have to take you to the John Marshall House, and to the Capitol building, designed by Thomas Jefferson of course..... just like UVA. Both Jefferson's and Madison's houses are not far from Charlottesville. Patrick Henry's house is just to the north of Richmond, in Hanover County.

Thank you for that.

Sorry: back to the topic at hand!!

 

Not exactly sure that to which you refer, as I was neither on vacation, nor was I enjoying the cool summer air.
Anyhow.....

I suppose this is a half-hearted attempt at humor. The point may be rhetorical, but for the record, I think it was very clear that I did not endorse them in any way shape or form. But thanks anyway.

Okay: as long as you concede that point.

Ummmm.............. okay.

.........or the claim that Iraq has reconstituted their nuclear weapons program.......... and that we should take action before the "smoking gun" comes to us in the form of a "mushroom cloud." Wouldn't you agree?

Well, actually you led yourself to this "digression," as YOU are the one who introduced them into this discussion. Your decision to do this had absolutely nothing to do with me.....
In actuality, the ACLU has nothing to do with the topic of conversation. You simply decided to take the opportunity to take a shot at them. By your own admission, you have theorized as to what their position might be on this topic.

Since you have elaborated and included the right wing, then I would agree with you.

BiR

 

Granted lies do not contribute to any ideal, but are you actually suggesting that expression and commentary should be bound by law to be truthful? How exactly will that be carried out. I cannot even imagine what level of totalinarianism you are talking about there. Furthermore, given that political expression and commentary are opinion by their very nature, what constitutes a lie?