"Free Choice" - MB

[TCassidy]

Folks, as demonstrated above, all they have is denial, deflection and defeat.

Van, I am terribly sorry you seem unable to follow the discussion and respond accordingly. The constant whining is a sad development. When I knew you 35 years ago I thought of you as a very intelligent man, along with the rest of the management team, Walt, Joe, Don, et. al. But it is beginning to look as if the years have not been kind to you.

 

[Van]

Van, I am terribly sorry you seem unable to follow the discussion and respond accordingly. The constant whining is a sad development. When I knew you 35 years ago I thought of you as a very intelligent man, along with the rest of the management team, Walt, Joe, Don, et. al. But it is beginning to look as if the years have not been kind to you.

Argument against the man posts reveal nothing edifying.
No matter how often the absurdity is repeated, non-choice is not choice.
1 Cor. 2:14 does not say natural people cannot understand all the things of the Spirit,
Matthew 23:13 teaches the fallen have some spiritual ability, they were entering the kingdom.
Calvinism asserts God ordains (predestines) whatsoever comes to pass, including our choice to sin, yet God is not the author of sin. Pure nonsense wrapped in an enigma. Cognitive dissonance on display.

 

[MB]

Van, I am terribly sorry you seem unable to follow the discussion and respond accordingly. The constant whining is a sad development. When I knew you 35 years ago I thought of you as a very intelligent man, along with the rest of the management team, Walt, Joe, Don, et. al. But it is beginning to look as if the years have not been kind to you.

This only because you have invaded the thread with your calvinistic foolishness. Like Jehovah's Witnesses you insist on a barrage of non sense to confuse the topic so you can attempt to protect the false doctrine of Calvinism.
MB

 

[thatbrian]

The venomous posts in this thread from people taking the anti-Calvinist side are breathtaking. Shocking talk for Christians. . . The ignore feature is a necessity here.

 

[MB]

Romans 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, hearing of the word of God.

See there even you can understand the truth.

What I noticed is that you are still running away from my question. 5 times I have asked the same, very simple, question, and still you cannot honestly answer it because you know your answer will prove you don't have a clue what you are talking about.

An answer isn't what you want because I've given it to you. What you want is an agreement with you and that is not going to happen.

"So, again, I ask, for the 6th time, what part of man has not been affected by sin and is still perfectly sinless and able to go to heaven on its own merits? The body? The soul? The spirit? Which one has not been affected by the fall and remains in sinless perfection."

You've never answered the questions I've asked you. I asked you to prove total depravity and you have not done that. All you have done is post scripture that when read in context which doesn't prove it.
MB

 

[MB]

The bible tells us what bondage of the will means.

Romans 8:2 tells us that "The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death."

Prior to salvation the will is in bondage to the law of sin and death.

After salvation the will is been set free by the Law of the Spirit of new life in Christ.

John 8:32 "You will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

John 8:34 Jesus answered them, “Most certainly I tell you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.
35 A slave doesn’t live in the house forever. A son remains forever.
36 If therefore the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.

If we were not in bondage to sin we would not need to be set free.

Slaves in bondage have managed to escape their bonds, by choosing Christ. Just because they are in bondage does not mean they can't hear the gospel or make a decision for Christ.
MB

 

[MB]

The venomous posts in this thread from people taking the anti-Calvinist side are breathtaking. Shocking talk for Christians. . .

These are not just taking the anti Calvinistic view. They're trying to show Calvinist the truth of what Scripture actually says. The fact you and other Calvinist are not able to defend taking scripture out of context and using tactics to confuse and distract from what is so obvious about Calvinism is really denying that God wrote what He wrote. This denial is disrespect of God.
MB

 

[Katarina Von Bora]

I sometimes, don't reflect the Christian witness that I should. But in this thread, I decided to take a few days off to regain my peace.

The biggest problem in most Christian forums is that unbelievers are watching and we are sending the worst possible messages to them.

 

[Katarina Von Bora]

Yes. But there are a few things we must understand. There are some of these that Calvinists do not agree on:
1. We are dead in our trespasses. Since we are born dead spiritually, we CANNOT turn to God on our own. We cannot hear God, see God or choose God unless God intervenes. (Calvinists AGREE on this statement).
2. God calls ALL men to Himself but FEW are chosen. (The Calvinists AGREES on this statement)
3. Those who are chosen were chosen based on the foreknowledge of God. God chose those who WOULD be willing to receive Him. (Calvinist MAY OR MAY NOT agree on this statement).
4. God will give EVERYONE the ability to believe or not believe. This comes at the point of conviction. The Spirit will draw ALL sinners to himself and gives them the ABILITY to choose Jesus or reject Jesus. (The Calvinist will NOT agree on this statement. They believe God only grants the ability to believe to the chosen ones. Hence the reason why they believe in Irresistible Grace.)
5. The minute that the Spirit convicts an individual, that is when free will comes in. That person has to make the choice to believe or not believe. If they believe, the Spirit will grant them eternal life, if they don't they remain in their sin. (The Calvinist does NOT believe in this statement. They believe you must receive eternal life first before one believes).

This post proves that you don't know what reformed theology teaches.

I'd love to see you post a scripture that says men have free will unto salvation. I've read through the Bible many times, and I just can't find it.

 

[JonShaff]

This post proves that you don't know what reformed theology teaches.

I'd love to see you post a scripture that says men have free will unto salvation. I've read through the Bible many times, and I just can't find it.

Hi there!

I'm late to the party

You may have already defined it, but can you explain what you mean when you say "Free will unto salvation" and I will do my best to present a reasonable response. Thanks!

 

[thatbrian]

Hi there!

I'm late to the party

You may have already defined it, but can you explain what you mean when you say "Free will unto salvation" and I will do my best to present a reasonable response. Thanks!

I'll jump in, and try to offer an answer. After Adam, all men are born in bondage to sin. That is why Jesus said, in John 6:44 that, No man *can* come to me. . . Now, Christ did not say that no man *may* come to Him. He said that no man *can* come to Him. Men are not able, nor do they even desire to, come to Christ, unless and until they are set free/made new creatures first.

Sinners sin. It is their nature to sin. They cannot please God. "Those who are in the flesh cannot please God." (Romans 8:8). Worse than that, natural man cannot even see or comprehend the things of God. "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned."(1 Corinthians 2:14).

 

[JonShaff]

I'll jump in, and try to offer an answer. After Adam, all men are born in bondage to sin. That is why Jesus said, in John 6:44 that, No man *can* come to me. . . Now, Christ did not say that no man *may* come to Him. He said that no man *can* come to Him. Men are not able, nor do they even desire to, come to Christ, unless and until they are set free/made new creatures first.

Sinners sin. It is their nature to sin. They cannot please God. "Those who are in the flesh cannot please God." (Romans 8:8). Worse than that, natural man cannot even see or comprehend the things of God. "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned."(1 Corinthians 2:14).

Ok, first, Please explain how the context helps your argument you developed out of John 6:44. Please be specific. This is a Gospel Narrative in which Christ was speaking to specific people at a specific place at a specific time. Thanks in advance.

Secondly,

Right, sinners sin. Saved people sin. What's your point?

Thirdly,

Explain how 1 Corinthians 2:14, in its context, explains that sinners need to be regenerated in order to place their faith in Christ...again, in its context. If it's truly there, you should be able to support your claim without going to other areas of Scripture.

Thanks in advance

 

[thatbrian]

Ok, first, Please explain how the context helps your argument you developed out of John 6:44. Please be specific. This is a Gospel Narrative in which Christ was speaking to specific people at a specific place at a specific time. Thanks in advance.

Secondly,

Right, sinners sin. Saved people sin. What's your point?

Thirdly,

Explain how 1 Corinthians 2:14, in its context, explains that sinners need to be regenerated in order to place their faith in Christ...again, in its context. If it's truly there, you should be able to support your claim without going to other areas of Scripture.

Thanks in advance

Both texts are plain, so I don't mean this to be sarcastic because sometimes I am sarcastic, but if you can't see the point of those texts, I am at a loss for trying to explain them to you, especially 1 Corinthians 2:14. That can be made no plainer.

What do you mean by "a specific place and time" when referring to John 6:44? Do you mean that what He said does not apply any longer?

Here's some context. Verses 36 and 37 also prove the same point, as well as the entire section, finishing with 44, which is His wrapping up this pericope.

John 6:35–44

[35] Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. [36] But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. [37] All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. [38] For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. [39] And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. [40] For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

[41] So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” [42] They said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?” [43] Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. [44] No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. (ESV)​

 

[JonShaff]

Both texts are plain, so I don't mean this to be sarcastic because sometimes I am sarcastic, but if you can't see the point of those texts, I am at a loss for trying to explain them to you, especially 1 Corinthians 2:14. That can be made no plainer.

What do you mean by "a specific place and time" when referring to John 6:44? Do you mean that what He said does not apply any longer?

Here's some context. Verses 36 and 37 also prove the same point, as well as the entire section, finishing with 44, which is His wrapping up this pericope.

John 6:35–44

[35] Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. [36] But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. [37] All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. [38] For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. [39] And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. [40] For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

[41] So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” [42] They said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?” [43] Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. [44] No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. (ESV)​

How convenient, you don't include the next verse.

John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who hears and learns from the Father comes to me.

 

[thatbrian]

How convenient, you don't include the next verse.

John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who hears and learns from the Father comes to me.

Are you saying that text negates the previous one? Put them together, Jon, and then read them.

"Everyone who hears". Who are those who hear? "And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables," (John 4:11)

 

[JonShaff]

Are you saying that text negates the previous one? Put them together, Jon, and then read them.

"Everyone who hears". Who are those who hear? "And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables," (John 4:11)

The exercise is for YOU to put the together the verses. He was speaking to people who rejected Christ's teaching BECAUSE they did not truly "listen to the Father." That was their claim "Our Father this, our Father That." And Jesus was saying, "If you were truly born-again, learning of the Father, He would have drawn you to Me."

This passage is a Gospel Narrative and Not an Epistle. You must handle it carefully. Christ is making a statement that is speaking about people who would have already been regenerated AT THAT TIME dealing with Christ's ministry.

 

[MB]

Both texts are plain, so I don't mean this to be sarcastic because sometimes I am sarcastic, but if you can't see the point of those texts, I am at a loss for trying to explain them to you, especially 1 Corinthians 2:14. That can be made no plainer.

What do you mean by "a specific place and time" when referring to John 6:44? Do you mean that what He said does not apply any longer?

Here's some context. Verses 36 and 37 also prove the same point, as well as the entire section, finishing with 44, which is His wrapping up this pericope.

John 6:35–44

[35] Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. [36] But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. [37] All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. [38] For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. [39] And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. [40] For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

[41] So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” [42] They said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?” [43] Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. [44] No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. (ESV)​

How can you believe something that you admit that you can't explain?
MB

 

[TCassidy]

How can you believe something that you admit that you can't explain?
MB

Do you believe in the Trinity? Can you explain the Trinity?

 

[JonShaff]

Jo

Do you believe in the Trinity? Can you explain the Trinity?

He's talking about, in my estimation, texts of Scripture. @thatbrian failed to exegete the texts but is certain as to what they mean.

 

[TCassidy]

Jo

He's talking about, in my estimation, texts of Scripture. @thatbrian failed to exegete the texts but is certain as to what they mean.

Exactly. How can he believe in something (The Trinity), which he cannot explain?