UnchartedSpirit
New Member
too busy to join (another), sorry 
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Free Choice
- Thread starter J.D.
- Start date
I think this is an excellent question. I don't think it is possible to answer it to the satisfaction of a free willer, however.
We are born spiritually dead. One need no more information to understand why we are by nature at emnity with God. This doesn't mean we don't have a free will, but that we will what we are inclined to will, and there is no way a spiritually dead will is going to be inclined toward God. Even our every "good" deed is self-centered.
Someone will say to me, "but I see people being good mothers, etc." What you see are people who are raising kids, and being "good" to them for a variety of selfish reasons. One might be doing it to get a sense of immortality (my family will live on through my kids). Another might be raising kids to be reflections of themselves. All our good deeds are as but filty rags to God as long as they originate from a spiritually dead heart.
I have browsed sharper iron a little bit. Phil Johnson mentioned it in his FUNDIES PART II Seminar at the Shepherd's Conference a few weeks ago. A more balanced perspective from some Fundies than has been more evident among some of the more extreme fundies.
Again, no time. Besides, many of those guys lean toward Dispy and C, at least from what I could tell in a brief perusal of the site... What would I have to argue about?
JD,
Sorry about blending your comment with those of another poster in my reply...
Again, no time. Besides, many of those guys lean toward Dispy and C, at least from what I could tell in a brief perusal of the site... What would I have to argue about?
JD,
Sorry about blending your comment with those of another poster in my reply...
"I am the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt: open thy mouth wide, and I will fill it.
But my people would not hearken to my voice; and Israel would none of me.
So I gave them up unto their own hearts’ lust: and they walked in their own counsels.
Oh that my people had hearkened unto me, and Israel had walked in my ways!
I should soon have subdued their enemies, and turned my hand against their adversaries." Ps. 81:10-14
All this God had said to an unregenerate People. (O.K., a small number of them were regenerate)
I'm sorry but this lament from the LORD doesn't fit the Calvinist model of Total Depravity.
And neither does this:
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy
children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!" Lk 13:34
But my people would not hearken to my voice; and Israel would none of me.
So I gave them up unto their own hearts’ lust: and they walked in their own counsels.
Oh that my people had hearkened unto me, and Israel had walked in my ways!
I should soon have subdued their enemies, and turned my hand against their adversaries." Ps. 81:10-14
All this God had said to an unregenerate People. (O.K., a small number of them were regenerate)
I'm sorry but this lament from the LORD doesn't fit the Calvinist model of Total Depravity.
And neither does this:
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy
children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!" Lk 13:34
JackRUS,
How does this fit with your argument...
Mt 26:39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me:
Mr 14:35 And he went forward a little, and fell on the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him.
Mr 14:36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.
Lu 22:41 And he was withdrawn from them about a stone’s cast, and kneeled down, and prayed,
Lu 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
I would answer that at times God's desire (speaking from an anthropomorhic perspective) seems to differ from His plan in order to accomplish His sovereign will.
As far as fitting the model, are you suggesting that men are NOT totally DEAD in trespasses and sin?
How does this fit with your argument...
Mt 26:39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me:
Mr 14:35 And he went forward a little, and fell on the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him.
Mr 14:36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.
Lu 22:41 And he was withdrawn from them about a stone’s cast, and kneeled down, and prayed,
Lu 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
I would answer that at times God's desire (speaking from an anthropomorhic perspective) seems to differ from His plan in order to accomplish His sovereign will.
As far as fitting the model, are you suggesting that men are NOT totally DEAD in trespasses and sin?
Sure JD. This from the first post:
"So the unregenerate are free to choose sin, and they are free choose what color shirt to wear today; but they are not free to choose God until God regenerates them..."
Any questions?
rjprince asked:
Of course not. But dead in sin does not mean brain dead.
And I don't see your example of Christ's submission to the Father's will having anything to do with God being both disappointed and angry when unregenerate Israel won't hearken to His voice.
I will say that when regenerated we get a much better understanding of God. But still not an even close to full understanding. Note 1 Cor. 13:9-12.
And I might add that even after regeneration we have a free will to either obey and listen to God's will for us in our lives, or to ignore Him like Israel. Agreed?
Calvibaptist
New Member
How does quoting a scripture that shows that men DON'T choose God go against the quote from the OP that says men are not free to choose God until He regenerates them? If anything it proves the point.
No it doesn't because God shows many times in OT Scripture that He is both angry and diapointed that men don't choose to obey Him and His Word. And that thought is exactly what was conveyed in Psalm 81.
Why would God show such disapointment if the Calvinist model is correct do you suppose?
Jerusalem fell under the covenant of the law, didn't it? That is, it came short of grace, to put it another way. And isn't it true that if Israel had lived in the law, then He would have saved them? And isn't it true that God does not take pleasure in the death of the wicked? So then he would mourn for fallen Israel, the same Israel he had set his affection on, in the last days of the Mosaic covenant, wouldn't he? And how does any of this relate to the elect under grace? The elect ARE INFALLIBLY gathered unto Him.
It is a furtherence of the witness of the law against man. Man, here represented by Jerusalem, has failed once again to repair himself to God, IN SPITE of God's willingness to save him if he would repair, and His anthropomorphic tears pleading for him. Man's failure to keep God's law necessitated grace, the action of God whereby He put His law in their hearts, he circumsized their hearts that they may love him.
So this passage is in full keeping with the doctrine of total depravity.
It is a furtherence of the witness of the law against man. Man, here represented by Jerusalem, has failed once again to repair himself to God, IN SPITE of God's willingness to save him if he would repair, and His anthropomorphic tears pleading for him. Man's failure to keep God's law necessitated grace, the action of God whereby He put His law in their hearts, he circumsized their hearts that they may love him.
So this passage is in full keeping with the doctrine of total depravity.
As far as God grieving about their rebellion, it is the same as the references I cited.
Jesus expressed grief over going to the Cross, yet the cross was not only included in God's plan, it WAS God's plan, from the foundation of the world.
Jesus expressed grief over the rebellion of the Jews. Yet, this also was included in God's plan.
The rebellion of Israel is in no way inconsistent with the doctrines of grace.
Jesus expressed grief over going to the Cross, yet the cross was not only included in God's plan, it WAS God's plan, from the foundation of the world.
Jesus expressed grief over the rebellion of the Jews. Yet, this also was included in God's plan.
The rebellion of Israel is in no way inconsistent with the doctrines of grace.
Hi J.D.,
I've not read the whole thread, because I've been watching basketball and now I'm tired and to lazy to read it, but here's what I mean when I say that the lost make free choices. I mean that they can do whatever they want. Of course that excludes things like flying (without an airplane) or walking on the ceiling. No need to get into that. They could repent and believe, if they wanted to, but what sinner would ever want to turn from his sin to God? So, they remain in their sin.
That may take on many different forms. The sinner could pursue women, or men, or money, or drugs, or power, or laziness, or hundreds of other things, but it's always about a pursuit of what I want, which is always some form of sin, whether it is easily recognizable or not.
If and when God changes that sinner's nature (regeneration) then that person is free to want to repent and believe, and they will do so, every time.
Maybe there's a better way to say it than this, but the bottom line is that everybody gets the destiny that they want, whether that is heaven or hell. Praise God, not everybody gets the destiny that they deserve.
I've not read the whole thread, because I've been watching basketball and now I'm tired and to lazy to read it, but here's what I mean when I say that the lost make free choices. I mean that they can do whatever they want. Of course that excludes things like flying (without an airplane) or walking on the ceiling. No need to get into that. They could repent and believe, if they wanted to, but what sinner would ever want to turn from his sin to God? So, they remain in their sin.
That may take on many different forms. The sinner could pursue women, or men, or money, or drugs, or power, or laziness, or hundreds of other things, but it's always about a pursuit of what I want, which is always some form of sin, whether it is easily recognizable or not.
If and when God changes that sinner's nature (regeneration) then that person is free to want to repent and believe, and they will do so, every time.
Maybe there's a better way to say it than this, but the bottom line is that everybody gets the destiny that they want, whether that is heaven or hell. Praise God, not everybody gets the destiny that they deserve.
whatever,
As long as we are defining sins that keep a person from God, let not forget the big one for the pharisees. They kept the Law of God! That is a big one, thinking we can reach God on the basis of our own effort!
And of course I must insist that this one, as well as turning to God on their own is every bit as much within the sinners power as flying with no mechanical help, or even walking on the ceiling...
As long as we are defining sins that keep a person from God, let not forget the big one for the pharisees. They kept the Law of God! That is a big one, thinking we can reach God on the basis of our own effort!
And of course I must insist that this one, as well as turning to God on their own is every bit as much within the sinners power as flying with no mechanical help, or even walking on the ceiling...
Bill Brown
New Member
Your question gets to the core of an ancient debate, to wit: does man inherit a sin nature from birth or is man born with a "clean slate" and has not inherited a sin nature. As with all things, everyone has an opinion.
Romans 3:21-23 21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, In this passage Paul uses the word "all"(pas - grk). There is no modifer for the word "all." For instance, Paul was not talking about a specific set of people (for example: Jews in Rome) and using the word "all" to refer to only that group. In context "all" means every person who has ever lived. What are the ramifications of "all" in respect to sin? Every person who has ever lived (outside of Christ) has sinned. Now this does not conclusively prove that every person had to sin or was born with a sin nature, but it does state that all (every) person hassinned.
Romans 4:23-25 23 Now not for his sake only was it written, that it was reckoned to him, 24 but for our sake also, to whom it will be reckoned, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 He who was delivered up because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification. "Was delivered up because of our transgressions..."A transgression is sin in a specific category. It means to have taken a "false step." It gives the impression of straying off the path. Paul writes that Jesus Christ was delivered up because of our transgressions...our false steps. Paul makes an assumption in this passage. "Our transgressions" includes himself in that group. Paul identifies himself as a transgressor. Following on the footsteps of Romans 3:23, we see that principle of "all have sinned" is continued.
Romans 5:12-14 12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned-- 13 for until the Law sin was in the world; but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. Here Paul gets to the heart of the matter. Paul states that sin entered into the world through one man. That man was Adam. As a result of Adam's sin death spread to all men. And why did death spread to all men? Well it is not just because Adam sinned but is also because "all sinned." Once again Paul does not modify the word "all." In context it means every person, not just every person of a specific group. Adam is guilty of introducing sin to human race. We are guilty of sin. Adam's sin imparted to each of his posteriety a sin nature. His posteriety (us) sins because it is our nature to sin. It is important to note that Paul does not write, "possibly sin." There is no ambiquity. ALL have sinned.
I don't want to eat all my popcorn before the movie starts (which is another way of saying I don't want to use all my ammunition now!) Suffice to say I am making a case that we not only sin but that we are born with a sin nature. It is part of our character. We sin not just because we are born into sin, we sin because we have a sin nature.
Romans 3:21-23 21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, In this passage Paul uses the word "all"(pas - grk). There is no modifer for the word "all." For instance, Paul was not talking about a specific set of people (for example: Jews in Rome) and using the word "all" to refer to only that group. In context "all" means every person who has ever lived. What are the ramifications of "all" in respect to sin? Every person who has ever lived (outside of Christ) has sinned. Now this does not conclusively prove that every person had to sin or was born with a sin nature, but it does state that all (every) person hassinned.
Romans 4:23-25 23 Now not for his sake only was it written, that it was reckoned to him, 24 but for our sake also, to whom it will be reckoned, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 He who was delivered up because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification. "Was delivered up because of our transgressions..."A transgression is sin in a specific category. It means to have taken a "false step." It gives the impression of straying off the path. Paul writes that Jesus Christ was delivered up because of our transgressions...our false steps. Paul makes an assumption in this passage. "Our transgressions" includes himself in that group. Paul identifies himself as a transgressor. Following on the footsteps of Romans 3:23, we see that principle of "all have sinned" is continued.
Romans 5:12-14 12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned-- 13 for until the Law sin was in the world; but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. Here Paul gets to the heart of the matter. Paul states that sin entered into the world through one man. That man was Adam. As a result of Adam's sin death spread to all men. And why did death spread to all men? Well it is not just because Adam sinned but is also because "all sinned." Once again Paul does not modify the word "all." In context it means every person, not just every person of a specific group. Adam is guilty of introducing sin to human race. We are guilty of sin. Adam's sin imparted to each of his posteriety a sin nature. His posteriety (us) sins because it is our nature to sin. It is important to note that Paul does not write, "possibly sin." There is no ambiquity. ALL have sinned.
I don't want to eat all my popcorn before the movie starts (which is another way of saying I don't want to use all my ammunition now!)
Suffice to say I am making a case that we not only sin but that we are born with a sin nature. It is part of our character. We sin not just because we are born into sin, we sin because we have a sin nature.Calvibaptist
New Member
Just to play devil's advocate...Isn't the modifier for "all" found in the previous verse - "all those who believe?" Wouldn't it make sense that when Paul begins the next verse with for (gar), that he is referring to the same group? This is the only way to make sense of the flow into the next verse, which says those same "all" are "being justified freely by His grace. If it is every person who has ever lived, you are saying that every person who ever lived is justified freely by His grace.
I'm not completely positive about this line of thinking. I would have to look at the passage more thoroughly to work this out, but it is just something that piqued my curiosity.
Bluefalcon
Member
Let us all be like Josiah, who wisely chose to turn to God with all his might like no king before him or after him!
BillB,
Excellent post. Welcome to the board. Thanks for the popcorn comment. I like that. I do it, and have seen it done, but never seen it stated quite like that. A little bit of wit from time to time helps keep this from turning into the Baptist Bored!
CB,
I follow your thinking on this, but is it possible that Paul, in verse 23, has picked back up on what he said in 9-12?
It does not follow that every person is justified freely by his grace, but it is consistent with all of Scripture to declare that "all mankind has sinned".
Whether or not you can argue you point from the technical aspects of the Greek is beyond my three years of Greek, and not worth my time to develop at this point. In any case, any linguistic arguement must be kept subservient to the context and to the testimony of the rest of the Word.
Blue,
Are you suggesting that Josiah had inherent rigteousness apart from the working of God's grace in his life? Or some kind of internal wisdom that was untainted by a sin nature?
Excellent post. Welcome to the board. Thanks for the popcorn comment. I like that. I do it, and have seen it done, but never seen it stated quite like that. A little bit of wit from time to time helps keep this from turning into the Baptist Bored!
CB,
I follow your thinking on this, but is it possible that Paul, in verse 23, has picked back up on what he said in 9-12?
It does not follow that every person is justified freely by his grace, but it is consistent with all of Scripture to declare that "all mankind has sinned".
Whether or not you can argue you point from the technical aspects of the Greek is beyond my three years of Greek, and not worth my time to develop at this point. In any case, any linguistic arguement must be kept subservient to the context and to the testimony of the rest of the Word.
Blue,
Are you suggesting that Josiah had inherent rigteousness apart from the working of God's grace in his life? Or some kind of internal wisdom that was untainted by a sin nature?
Calvibaptist
New Member
Bill, you will find that most on this board agree that man is born with a sin nature. Some, however, use the term but redefine it. They do not believe that anyone is responsible for sin until they fully understand the law. We have refuted them many times, but still they persist.
Hello JD.
I have worked out my salvation with fear and trembling and cannot go back to fear. Love knows no fear.
I remember when I surrendered to the Lord. I kept saying, "I've done, I've done it. After all these years!" I was in that condition a couple of weeks before I learnt that He did it not me.
God is Sovereign.
I took the Sovereignty of God to heart and believed that choice is sovereignty. Everything forever is planned down to the smallest element. The smalls are important.
That ain't normal adnormal.
john.
Not me brother, God picked the socks I wear before the creation of the world.
I have worked out my salvation with fear and trembling and cannot go back to fear. Love knows no fear.I remember when I surrendered to the Lord. I kept saying, "I've done, I've done it. After all these years!" I was in that condition a couple of weeks before I learnt that He did it not me.
Serious.
God is Sovereign.I've not heard of Zanchius. Jerome is it? http://www.ondoctrine.com/2zanchiu.htm
I took the Sovereignty of God to heart and believed that choice is sovereignty. Everything forever is planned down to the smallest element. The smalls are important.
I believe God is the Author and Perfector of sin.
That ain't normal adnormal. john.