Free Grace Theology vs. Armianism vs. Calvinism

[evangelist6589]

I saw a thread that Webdog posted in 2005 and it was very educating. Are most here Free Gracers? In some ways I get confused with Calvinism. Reading Metzger I am just confused on why God would take pleasure in billions of souls suffering in Hell. I know God grants salvation to the elect and does not to others. Perhaps my confusion comes because I read the Bible and just can't find the word pleasure in Gods heart in describing a 100 billion people in Hell. What say you?

 

[pinoybaptist]

I saw a thread that Webdog posted in 2005 and it was very educating. Are most here Free Gracers? In some ways I get confused with Calvinism. Reading Metzger I am just confused on why God would take pleasure in billions of souls suffering in Hell. I know God grants salvation to the elect and does not to others. Perhaps my confusion comes because I read the Bible and just can't find the word pleasure in Gods heart in describing a 100 billion people in Hell. What say you?

where did you get this figure, "100 billion in hell ?".

 

[Revmitchell]

where did you get this figure, "100 billion in hell ?".

So that is what you took in out of that post? Really?

 

[pinoybaptist]

So that is what you took in out of that post? Really?

well, unfortunately, I am not a "Reverend"ly bright and intelligent person like yourself, "Reverend".
Now, IF you are any bit as "reverend" as your title says, maybe you could help me out ?
Or don't you know the answer yourself, so you point out my sorry ignorance to deflect it from yours ?

 

[InTheLight]

Reading Metzger I am just confused on why God would take pleasure in billions of souls suffering in Hell. I know God grants salvation to the elect and does not to others. Perhaps my confusion comes because I read the Bible and just can't find the word pleasure in Gods heart in describing a 100 billion people in Hell. What say you?

1 Tim. 2:3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Rom. 10:13 Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.




[stop reading Metzger]

 

[evangelist6589]

where did you get this figure, "100 billion in hell ?".

Okay I used hyperbole. But is that all you took out of my post???? Seriously?

 

[pinoybaptist]

Okay I used hyperbole. But is that all you took out of my post???? Seriously?

no.
the question could have led to further discussion.
but since both you and the "Reverend" think me dumb, forget about it.

 

[salzer mtn]

I am just confused on why God would take pleasure in billions of souls suffering in Hell.

Pleasure don't have anything to do with it. What does ? Gods word is honored. Nahum 1:2 The Lord will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth wrath for his enemies. Gods justice shall be satisfied and his wrath will be made known to wicked sinners.

 

[Greektim]

I saw a thread that Webdog posted in 2005 and it was very educating. Are most here Free Gracers? In some ways I get confused with Calvinism. Reading Metzger I am just confused on why God would take pleasure in billions of souls suffering in Hell. I know God grants salvation to the elect and does not to others. Perhaps my confusion comes because I read the Bible and just can't find the word pleasure in Gods heart in describing a 100 billion people in Hell. What say you?

What book by Metzger are you referring? Can you also link it from Amazon?

And I would say that God takes pleasure in his own glory. Can God be glorified by those suffering in hell?

I can get there. Hell appeases his justice. That his eternal glory was tainted w/ sin and idolatry demands an eternal punishment. Carrying out that punishment is good because it is just. And thus God is glorified in his attribute of goodness and justice. Therefore God is pleased.

 

[JamesL]

John,
Can you copy and paste Webdog's post from '05 ? That might help.

Both the Calvinist and the Arminian are dead wrong on election, because they are both trying to relate it to justification and "entering" the Kingdom of God

But scripture speaks of election in relation to rewards and inheritance, or "inheriting" the Kingdom of God

 

[JonC]

What book by Metzger are you referring? Can you also link it from Amazon?

And I would say that God takes pleasure in his own glory. Can God be glorified by those suffering in hell?

I can get there. Hell appeases his justice. That his eternal glory was tainted w/ sin and idolatry demands an eternal punishment. Carrying out that punishment is good because it is just. And thus God is glorified in his attribute of goodness and justice. Therefore God is pleased.

This is the book to which John is referring:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0830823220/?tag=baptis04-20

BTW: I think that God is glorified in the exercise of His justice, but not that he takes pleasure in the destruction of the wicked.

 

[Don]

I saw a thread that Webdog posted in 2005 and it was very educating. Are most here Free Gracers? In some ways I get confused with Calvinism. Reading Metzger I am just confused on why God would take pleasure in billions of souls suffering in Hell. I know God grants salvation to the elect and does not to others. Perhaps my confusion comes because I read the Bible and just can't find the word pleasure in Gods heart in describing a 100 billion people in Hell. What say you?

There are several points in your post that indicate you're not as much of a calvinist as you proclaim.

For example, God does not take pleasure in souls suffering in hell; but a just God does not allow sin and the un-just in His presence. It's like the "death penalty" discussions in a different forum: there is no pleasure in souls sent to hell, only justice. (Actually, that point applies to both calvinists and arminians, as well as others)

Second, and you used the previous to lead into this: the calvinist doesn't believe that God withholds salvation from the non-elect. The calvinist believes that it is the total depravity of man that sentences him to hell, not God. It is God's foreknowledge of who will be saved that determines the elect, not His choosing.

Calvinists, please feel free to correct me where I've misrepresented your position.

 

[evangelist6589]

1 Tim. 2:3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Rom. 10:13 Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

[stop reading Metzger]

It also says that we love him because he first loved us (1 Jn 4:19. And no one can come to me unless the father has enabled him. (Jn 6:65)

 

[Greektim]

This is the book to which John is referring:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0830823220/?tag=baptis04-20

BTW: I think that God is glorified in the exercise of His justice, but not that he takes pleasure in the destruction of the wicked.

But follow the logic of what I'm saying. God takes pleasure in his glory. God is glorified when he delivers justice. Justice is achieved when those who have sinned against God's eternal glory are punished eternally.

Thanks for the link, btw. I've been trying to tell evangelist#### to include the book title as well as a link to amazon, but he has yet to figure it out. It is just academic honesty to cite the source you are critiquing.

 

[evangelist6589]

What book by Metzger are you referring? Can you also link it from Amazon?

And I would say that God takes pleasure in his own glory. Can God be glorified by those suffering in hell?

I can get there. Hell appeases his justice. That his eternal glory was tainted w/ sin and idolatry demands an eternal punishment. Carrying out that punishment is good because it is just. And thus God is glorified in his attribute of goodness and justice. Therefore God is pleased.

Tell the Truth. Well he has made some statements and also quoted a Piper book that I do not have called the Pleasures of God (I have Desiring God) and Metzger speaks about God granting the gift of repentance to those whom the father gave to Him, and because it was His pleasure. So by this logic God has allowed billions of people to be born whom He did not desire to save, and those are in Hell. This sounds like double predestination to me. Because God did not grant them faith and repentance and so they will choose evil and go to Hell.

Check out this article.

http://www.gotquestions.org/double-predestination.html

I believe this site owner would fall into the Free Grace side.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I guess I should have read this before getting married :thumbs:

John,
Can you copy and paste Webdog's post from '05 ? That might help.

Both the Calvinist and the Arminian are dead wrong on election, because they are both trying to relate it to justification and "entering" the Kingdom of God

But scripture speaks of election in relation to rewards and inheritance, or "inheriting" the Kingdom of God

Doyou also believe that Christ died for all mankind?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

It also says that we love him because he first loved us (1 Jn 4:19. And no one can come to me unless the father has enabled him. (Jn 6:65)

Bingo:null::applause:

 

[evangelist6589]

John,
Can you copy and paste Webdog's post from '05 ? That might help.

Both the Calvinist and the Arminian are dead wrong on election, because they are both trying to relate it to justification and "entering" the Kingdom of God

But scripture speaks of election in relation to rewards and inheritance, or "inheriting" the Kingdom of God

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=29801

Greetings. It has been said that if you weren't arminian, you were automatically calvinist, and vice versa. Free Grace Theologian has recently been coming up more and more here on the BB. I would like to know the differences in FG compared to both calvinism and arminianism

Calvinism's 5 points:
Total Depravity
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement
Irresistable Grace
Perseverance of the Saints

Arminianism's 5 points:
1. Conditional Election
2. Universal Atonement
3. Saving Faith
4. Resistable Grace
5. Uncertainty of Preservation

How does FG compare to these, and what are the main differences to both of the above doctine's?

Read ascund's reply its very educating.

 

[JonC]

But follow the logic of what I'm saying. God takes pleasure in his glory. God is glorified when he delivers justice. Justice is achieved when those who have sinned against God's eternal glory are punished eternally.

Thanks for the link, btw. I've been trying to tell evangelist#### to include the book title as well as a link to amazon, but he has yet to figure it out. It is just academic honesty to cite the source you are critiquing.

I understand what you are saying, Greektim. At the same time, we know that takes no pleasure in the destruction of the wicked (I won't bother to quote Scripture here...I'm sure you are aware of what I am speaking).

Perhaps the context is different...but I don't think that we can make a blanket statement that it makes God "happy" when He gets to destroy people (which is the idea that I get when some present the topic). When God exercises His wrath, I can understand that it is to His glory, and that He is satisfied with that judgement. At the same time, I have to believe that destroying wicked men does not bring him 'pleasure' or 'delight' not only because Scripture indicates the opposite but also because it seems foreign to the character of God as revealed through Scripture. Does God 'morn' the lost? I believe so. Does He regret their destruction? I think not.

 

[tyndale1946]

I saw a thread that Webdog posted in 2005 and it was very educating. Are most here Free Gracers? In some ways I get confused with Calvinism. Reading Metzger I am just confused on why God would take pleasure in billions of souls suffering in Hell. I know God grants salvation to the elect and does not to others. Perhaps my confusion comes because I read the Bible and just can't find the word pleasure in Gods heart in describing a 100 billion people in Hell. What say you?

I say who counted them?... Must have been a genius to count that high!... I concern myself with Rev 7:9 A great multitude that no man could number... The redeemed of God!... Isn't it funny that carnal men dabble in things that belong to God that they are ignorant of and bang their heads against a wall trying to figure it out:BangHead: