Free will and a sovereign God

[ILUVLIGHT]

Npetrely;

You didn't create the sun, create the earth and put the earth in an orbit around the sun. God did. So the fact that He foreknows it and foreordained it are the same thing. You're not God, you didn't create the universe, so the fact that you know the sun will rise in the morning is irrelevant to the issue.

You know Nick I never said I was God, But God loves you and so do I. You must be mad at me over something so speak up Nick what's on your mind ?.
May God give you light;
Mike

 

[Travelsong]

The subject of a fully sovereign God sure does chase the free willers away.

No matter how you look at it, free will requires that we take away God's full sovereignty and replace it with a measure of doubt.

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Me2;

even adams destiny was subject to the will of God...

Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected [the same] in hope,

Being made subject to "Vanity" has nothing to do with predestination. Some are more vain than others and because of choice.
What Is "Hope" ? is it predestined?. If predestined, then there is no need for hope is there?.
May God Bless You;
Mike

 

[Skandelon]

Good point Mike!

Who hopes for what he already has? But if we hope for what we do not yet have we wait for it eagerly.

Our hope is for our adoption which all believers have been predestined for.

 

[LaymansTermsPlease]

Originally posted by Travelsong:
No matter how you look at it, free will requires that we take away God's full sovereignty and replace it with a measure of doubt.

Nah, exactly the opposite...the Free Willers believe in a more omnipotent and omniscient God than Calvinists do.

The Calvinist God is in a box...He's obviously not powerful enough to grant his creatures free will and yet still be able to foreknow every decision they will ever make.

The Free Willer's God isn't constrained by space and time, and is never surprised by the choices we make...not because He makes them all for us..but because He knows everything that ever was, is, or will be...every possiblity too.


I heard a redundant comic once sum up pretty well:

"God is omnipotent.. all powerful!"
"He is eternal... all the time!"
"He's omniscient... and He knows it!"

 

[Skandelon]

Hey Travelsong!

Do you believe that Adam had free will when he chose to sin?

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by ILUVLIGHT:
You know Nick I never said I was God, But God loves you and so do I. You must be mad at me over something so speak up Nick what's on your mind ?.

I'm not mad at you at all. I was just pointing out that your illustration doesn't work. Foreknowledge in a creation (like you or me) is not the same thing as foreknowledge in the creator (who designs all things with the perfect knowledge of everything it will say, think or do). While it is true we can create things, ourselves (children, computers, etc.), we do not have perfect foreknowledge of how they will behave -- and we cannot therefore make a different decision based on our foreknowledge.

In short, if we created Adam, we might not know Adam would disobey, so we might be caught off guard and have to come up with a plan to deal with it.

God DID know Adam would disobey. Maybe He could have prevented it by choosing not to let satan into the garden. He could have chosen not to create Adam at all. He could have chosen to create Adam differently. But He chose what He chose knowing, and therefore WILLING in advance that every single minute detail He foreknew would come to pass. Therefore what God foreknows, He also foreordains, because only He can foreknow it perfectly, and only He has the power to will it to be differently one way or another.

That's what I meant when I basically said, "So what if you know the sun comes up in the morning? If you were God that might mean something, but you're not God, so it isn't a valid point."

 

[Me2]

ILUVLIGHT,

Vanity has everything to do with predestination. Man is placed into this environment where he witnesses to the knowledge of evil (death,sin, unrighteousness…). to EVENTUALLY parallel its opposite counterpart of the knowledge of good. (“In Christ”)

The understanding of the knowledge of vanity (evil, etc..) is combined with the understanding of the knowledge of Good. (“in Christ”)

Vanity as God explains himself is the shadowing of truth that is witheld from mans understanding.

Choice is an illusion..

Combining the knowledge of good and evil is described by paul as a woman giving birth.. yet does the woman have the capability from disallowing the child to be delivered?

Does the travail and pain give the woman reason from witholding the delivery of the child?

Point being is that man is a “participating” passenger. He can see and understand yet he cannot stop the journey from occuring. He accumulates knowledge. Wisdom. Understanding. he participates in persecutions and tribulations. He is affected by pressures within and without. All to bring to the delivery of the conclusion God has planned in mans life… the goal is inevitable. It is the will of God.


2Pe 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make [you that ye shall] neither [be] barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Gods creation is formed in an image before time. It was created in this image containing the knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. All of creation was, and is, and will eventually arrive back into absolute time where this image Eternally resides.

Rev 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

If man have free will. Then from arminians and calvinists standards. Many will not arrive to reach this intended Goal. Many in these viewpoints will not glory and please the Lord. This viewpoint makes no logical sense. Unless they view torment and agony as pleasing?
This is an incomplete understanding , proving some are still under the shadow of vanity and lacking truth.

Hope as I see it depends on “something desired, yet not received”. In mans vanity he hopes for many things God calls dead. There is a particular kind of hope described by God as “living” Hope. Which is only perceived by true faith within christ. carnal man doesn’t possess this living hope. He relies on dead hope as his desires to receiving his conclusion are in death and are selfish.

1Pe 1:3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

carnal man cannot know of this lively hope for it has been witnessed by the resurrected spirit of Christ which carnal man does not possess. For how can man hope for something not known of or understood.
But the true christian knows of the livley hope for they see the conclusions of what they seek for. And know that their father will give them what they hope for. It is living hope in a living God that allows those to reach their real goals.

Now back to that travailing part. Although man gradually hopes for and receives. He might reach his destination. But there is more to this. Not only is the hope for self reaching the needs of the individual. It also incorporates the hope of reaching the needs of the whole of Gods creation.

Not only do the elect possess the spirit of the Resurrected Christ. They also will someday realize the selfsame spirit is the spirit of the Lord.
The overseer and High Priest of the entirety of Gods creation.
It is His spirit that keeps the Living Hope alive towards All Of Gods Creation. It is his desires to complete the image to its fullness.

It is the elect who contain this spirit of the Lord Jesus Christ who desires with a living hope that all men be saved and come to the knowledge of him.

this is is sovereignty in action. all are placed in vanity. all are placed in christ. there is no free will of any rebellious man disallowing THE LORDS GOALS to be reached.

Me2

 

[Skandelon]

Originally posted by npetreley:
While it is true we can create things, ourselves (children, computers, etc.), we do not have perfect foreknowledge of how they will behave -- and we cannot therefore make a different decision based on our foreknowledge.

In short, if we created Adam, we might not know Adam would disobey, so we might be caught off guard and have to come up with a plan to deal with it.

God DID know Adam would disobey. Maybe He could have prevented it by choosing not to let satan into the garden. He could have chosen not to create Adam at all. He could have chosen to create Adam differently. But He chose what He chose knowing, and therefore WILLING in advance that every single minute detail He foreknew would come to pass. Therefore what God foreknows, He also foreordains, because only He can foreknow it perfectly, and only He has the power to will it to be differently one way or another.

That's what I meant when I basically said, "So what if you know the sun comes up in the morning? If you were God that might mean something, but you're not God, so it isn't a valid point."

You're making a purely theoretical argument based upon our limited view of time, omniscience, omnipotenence, and sovereignity in general. We could speculate all day as to what God created for himself to be "in control" of and what he gave over to others to decide within their own volition. Scripture never indicates that God causes someone to sin, in fact it is clear that God tempts no man to evil. You merely assume based upon your own understanding and reasoning that because God knew it all when he created it that he caused it. That is not a biblical concept, its human reasoning.

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Npetreley;

I was just pointing out that your illustration doesn't work.

The original illustration didn't work either. Speculation is still just that. To assume that everything is predestined simply because God knows what will happen is ridiculous. This is man's speculation nothing more. Speculation doesn't work either.
My speculation is that God views the past present and future at the same time. and is still viewing it the same way. He is infinite with no beginning and no end. We cannot even begin to understand His infinity. It's beyond our understanding. The smartest people who ever lived can't even scratch the surface of the infinity of God. I can't imagine what things would be like with out the rule of time.
May God Bless You;
Mike

 

[npetreley]

To assume that everything is predestined simply because God knows what will happen is ridiculous.

Not at all. If God foreknew every detail of His creation from beginning to end before He created it, then He implicitly "approved" of every event before He actually created the universe.

The only way to get around that is to claim that God didn't mean to create a universe that was imperfect and would include sinful and rebellious creatures. It just happened that way. God was therefore incapable of knowing everything that would happen before He began creation and therefore unable to choose an alternative. God was caught by surprise to find out that His creation was imperfect, but now He's dealing with it the best way He can. Jesus just happened by chance to be part of the Trinity before creation, but luckily, He came in really handy later on when God needed a way to deal with sin on earth.

Is that what you believe?

 

[Skandelon]

You can APPROVE something without being the cause of it. You can ALLOW something without having made it happen. God is able to create a world where people can have a free will. That is possible regardless of what you think based upon your own reason.

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Npetrely;

The only way to get around that is to claim that God didn't mean to create a universe that was imperfect and would include sinful and rebellious creatures. It just happened that way. God was therefore incapable of knowing everything that would happen before He began creation and therefore unable to choose an alternative. God was caught by surprise to find out that His creation was imperfect, but now He's dealing with it the best way He can. Jesus just happened by chance to be part of the Trinity before creation, but luckily, He came in really handy later on when God needed a way to deal with sin on earth.

Who said that God approved of everything that has happened. The whole of man could be just an experiment to see if men would come to Him. Your scenario has God making it all happen the hard way. God didn't have to create the world to make men love Him. He could have just as easily made men right there in Heaven. Why go through all this nonsense of creating the world when the out come is going to be the same anyway. Forced love.Which isn't real love anyway.

God is not incapable of anything He doesn't have to predestined it for it to happen, or approve it for Him to know about it. Only man's limited knowledge would limit God to a nothing happens with out God' approval type scenario Are you really saying that God can't know about something unless He made it happen or approved it?
As far as the trinity is concerned this wasn't an accident because it didn't just happen. God has always been in existence He had no beginning and has no end. Which is why understanding His infinity is impossible for me. I believe in Him and His infinity but I don't understand Infinity or how it's possible. I just believe that it is.
God knows because He is God not because He approves or predestined it.

An example;
How can I give you an example of God. Impossible eh!
May God Bless You;
Mike

 

[billwald]

There is no test for the existance of free will so the debate is moot.

 

[Tumbleweed]

Freewill (IE: The ability to make unforced personal choices) is, at least from our human perspective, a fact of life. A personal, interactive relationship with God (or anyone else) would not be possible otherwise.

In fact, the obviousness of our freewill is such that God takes special care throughout His word to remind us that although He has given man a measure of freedom, His will takes precedence - "There are many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the LORD, that shall stand." (Prov.19:21) How could He be God otherwise?

On the one hand we are told, "The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much" (Jas.5:16 - NASB). On the other hand He tells us, "It is God who worketh in you both to will and to do His good pleasure."

- Paul

 

[BobRyan]

God said "OH HOW I WANTED... but you WOULD NOT" Matt 23..

Luke 7 shows the same as scriptures say that the leaders "rejected GOD's PURPOSE for them".

This shows free will assuming that God is reasonably intelligent. (Something I always assume).

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

On the other hand - if I am writing these things because God is causing every stroke of the keyboard -- then God is causing me to expose the flaws in Calvinism -- and I have no power to stop Him.

IN Christ,

Bob

 

[Skandelon]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
On the other hand - if I am writing these things because God is causing every stroke of the keyboard -- then God is causing me to expose the flaws in Calvinism -- and I have no power to stop Him.

No, No Bob...

God foreknew that you would not be a Calvinist because he neglected to reveal to you what he revealed to all the more intellectually gifted Calvinists out there while He passed by us leaving us to our own devices to come up with our doctrine.

I jest, but you know I think it should be considered. Why didn't the Calvinistic God determine that all believers would believe the same soteriology? Surely being the sovereign God He is He wouldn't have left poor, misguided, depraved men to make that choice for themselves, would He? He must have (unless of course you believe only Calvinists are true Christians). And if God did give us the freedom to choose our own soteriology then that certainly goes to discredit the idea that God works in such a manner as Calvinists presume.

 

[Hardsheller]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
On the other hand - if I am writing these things because God is causing every stroke of the keyboard -- then God is causing me to expose the flaws in Calvinism -- and I have no power to stop Him.

IN Christ,

Bob

God never takes away our ability to sin until we are glorified in heaven. So it probably is pride that is causing you to type these Arminian responses.

 

[Me2]

Skandelon,

there are many dead corpses who lie at the bottom of the sea of the doctrines of men.

But fortunately...

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

out of all "christian" denominations....

Free will of men is but an illusion.

that means if God designs for any mans life to be in hell, or death, or the sea is for his glory.

So be it.

even God receives glory from those who espouse error. for they are serving a purpose of teaching contrast overagainst truth.

If one were to ask these teachers of error. Do you love God. they would answer, "yes, of course!". but if they knew they were teaching error. they would be ashamed. therefore they teach error under the guise of being reprobates and ignorant of their being misguided. yet they still believe they love God and teach truth and are just as adament towards doing so. thus they are teachers of error by mistake and ignorance. is this their free will choice of teaching error?.

NO! they are chosen to teach what they believe to be truth. by the covering over of their understanding and not being allowed to understand any difference. thus held in place of their beliefs...and by Whos choice?...

Gods

If God were to ask for volunteers to be antichrists and False prophets. How many hands would go up?..none. Yet they are needed in teaching and espousing error. So God chooses who they will be. what their parameters of teaching error will be. what they understand. and who they speak to.

man has no free will. It is Gods Plans unfolding before us. to teach us the knowledge of Good and evil.
and God has to be in full sovereign control.

Me2