Free Will and Prayer....

[jcjordan]

My question is, if you don't believe that God will violate a man's free will when it comes to salvation, then when you pray for someone's salvation, what are you expecting God to do?

 

[zrs6v4]

My question is, if you don't believe that God will violate a man's free will when it comes to salvation, then when you pray for someone's salvation, what are you expecting God to do?

I like this topic, so here is my imput to further the discussion...

- God is immutable and does not change His mind according to His will although it may appear He does so.

- Because of my first point we really can't expect God to change His mind, but we can pray as if He does and if He be willing to do so according to His purpose.

- I have found prayer is more to line our will to God's rather than His will to ours. When we are closer to God we are more aligned with His Spirit in fellowship and thus are more concerned with what He is doing than our high desires (although for others to be saved is very high). This does not mean that I dont cry to God to save a parent or a friend, but I do so with God intimately and personally because it is how I feel and is what i desire even though it isnt my highest concern. My highest desire is to know and glorify God even if that means all of my family is taken away.

- Lastly, I think it is vital to note that our praying can't really be left alone. If we care, we naturally should go out and tell people about God and the salvation He offers through His Son. So while we are preaching the Gospel we pray that if God is willing He will bless those who we tell. Sometimes God performs Acts chapter 2, other times we may preach a fruitless ministry for years much like Noah did, or anything in between can happen. It is at this point that others may se what Im saying and say, "so its God's fault?" I would reply "No" but it is how desperate man is for God to intervene.

 

[Johnv]

My question is, if you don't believe that God will violate a man's free will when it comes to salvation, then when you pray for someone's salvation, what are you expecting God to do?

The question presumes God is a Genie or a Santa Claus, who grants requests to anyone who rubs his lamp or send a letter to the North Pole. God is not. God is Heavenly Father, who cares for His children. The futility of the question is realized when one rephrases the question as follows: "If you don't believe that JCJordan's Father will violate JCJordan's free will, then when you ask for JCJordan to help his child, what are you expecting JCJordan's Father to do?"

 

[webdog]

James 5:16 says the prayer of the righteous availeth much. It is the mystery finite beings bound by time cannot understand. The cal has the same dilemma.

All I know is God said He was going to kill King Hezekiah. He wasn't making it up or kidding, it was His will to kill Hezekiah. After praying, God relented and granted Hezekiah additional years of life. We see: God decreeing something. Man praying. God responding to prayer and answering prayer. There are many other such passages just like this (Moses and the Israelites come to mind) showing God responding to man's prayer.

 

[Skandelon]

James 5:16 says the prayer of the righteous availeth much. It is the mystery finite beings bound by time cannot understand. The cal has the same dilemma.

All I know is God said He was going to kill King Hezekiah. He wasn't making it up or kidding, it was His will to kill Hezekiah. After praying, God relented and granted Hezekiah additional years of life. We see: God decreeing something. Man praying. God responding to prayer and answering prayer. There are many other such passages just like this (Moses and the Israelites come to mind) showing God responding to man's prayer.

Correct. And I believe when our theological systems attempt to nullify these scriptures (calling them "anthropomorphic" etc) we undermine God's full revelation of Himself and how HE has chosen to interact with mankind in His immanence.

 

[OldRegular]

Correct. And I believe when our theological systems attempt to nullify these scriptures (calling them "anthropomorphic" etc) we undermine God's full revelation of Himself and how HE has chosen to interact with mankind in His immanence.

Certainly you and webdog are more proficient in Scripture than I am. Please reference the Scripture which states that GOD was going to kill Hezekiah.

 

[webdog]

Certainly you and webdog are more proficient in Scripture than I am. Please reference the Scripture which states that GOD was going to kill Hezekiah.

In those days Hezekiah became ill and was at the point of death. The prophet Isaiah son of Amoz went to him and said, "This is what the LORD says: Put your house in order, because you are going to die; you will not recover."
2 Hezekiah turned his face to the wall and prayed to the LORD, 3 "Remember, O LORD, how I have walked before you faithfully and with wholehearted devotion and have done what is good in your eyes." And Hezekiah wept bitterly.

4 Then the word of the LORD came to Isaiah: 5 "Go and tell Hezekiah, 'This is what the LORD, the God of your father David, says: I have heard your prayer and seen your tears; I will add fifteen years to your life. 6 And I will deliver you and this city from the hand of the king of Assyria. I will defend this city.

 

[OldRegular]

I like this topic, so here is my imput to further the discussion...

- God is immutable and does not change His mind according to His will although it may appear He does so.

- Because of my first point we really can't expect God to change His mind, but we can pray as if He does and if He be willing to do so according to His purpose.

- I have found prayer is more to line our will to God's rather than His will to ours. When we are closer to God we are more aligned with His Spirit in fellowship and thus are more concerned with what He is doing than our high desires (although for others to be saved is very high). This does not mean that I dont cry to God to save a parent or a friend, but I do so with God intimately and personally because it is how I feel and is what i desire even though it isnt my highest concern. My highest desire is to know and glorify God even if that means all of my family is taken away.

I posted the following on another thread. I believe it is consistent with your remarks above.

It is not unreasonable to question, if God is sovereign why pray at all? The answer to that is simply that Scripture demands that we pray. What should we pray about? Whatever troubles us. However, we are not promised that our prayers will be answered as we desire. Consider the following
record of a prayer, offered in faith, for a temporal need that was not granted:

2 Corinthians 12:8,9, NKJV
8. Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me.
9. And He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

Commenting on the above passage W. Bingham Hunter [The God Who Hears] writes the following:

“Paul’s experience highlights the simple but profound truth that prayer is not the means by which we get what we want, rather it is a means that God uses to give us what he wants.”

I essentially agree with Hunter's explanation of prayer, at least until I hear a better one.

 

[pinoybaptist]

In those days Hezekiah became ill and was at the point of death. The prophet Isaiah son of Amoz went to him and said, "This is what the LORD says: Put your house in order, because you are going to die; you will not recover."
2 Hezekiah turned his face to the wall and prayed to the LORD, 3 "Remember, O LORD, how I have walked before you faithfully and with wholehearted devotion and have done what is good in your eyes." And Hezekiah wept bitterly.

4 Then the word of the LORD came to Isaiah: 5 "Go and tell Hezekiah, 'This is what the LORD, the God of your father David, says: I have heard your prayer and seen your tears; I will add fifteen years to your life. 6 And I will deliver you and this city from the hand of the king of Assyria. I will defend this city.

There's nothing here that supports your statement that God was going to kill Hezekiah.
The passage says that in those days Hezekiah became very ill and was at the point of death.
God merely sent a prophet to him to tell him what could have been inevitable if God does not step in, and God displayed His mercy in not only healing Hezekiah but in fighting his battle for him against the king of Assyria.

 

[Skandelon]

Some seem to ignore the clear intent of the text which says, "I have heard your prayer and seen your tears; I will add fifteen years to your life."

Obviously, the granting of the 15 additional years was in response to the prayer and tears. If that doesn't fit into some people's neat little theological construct, then maybe they should change their theology and stop trying to change the clear rendering of the text.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Some seem to ignore the clear intent of the text which says, "I have heard your prayer and seen your tears; I will add fifteen years to your life."

Obviously, the granting of the 15 additional years was in response to the prayer and tears. If that doesn't fit into some people's neat little theological construct, then maybe they should change their theology and stop trying to change the clear rendering of the text.

Where did it say God intended to kill Hezekiah ?
And where did I deny that God responded to Hezekiah's tears and prayers ?
Oh, my goodness, and you guys accuse us of reading things which are not in Scripture ?

 

[Skandelon]

There are a few other texts that support Webdog's claims:

Ex 32:

9 "I have seen these people," the LORD said to Moses, "and they are a stiff-necked people. 10 Now leave me alone so that my anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them. Then I will make you into a great nation." 11 But Moses sought the favor of the LORD his God. "O Lord," he said, "why should your anger burn against your people, whom you brought out of Egypt with great power and a mighty hand? 12 Why should the Egyptians say, 'It was with evil intent that he brought them out, to kill them in the mountains and to wipe them off the face of the earth'? Turn from your fierce anger; relent and do not bring disaster on your people. 13 Remember your servants Abraham, Isaac and Israel, to whom you swore by your own self: 'I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and I will give your descendants all this land I promised them, and it will be their inheritance forever.' " 14 Then the LORD relented and did not bring on his people the disaster he had threatened.

and

Deut 9:

13 And the LORD said to me, "I have seen this people, and they are a stiff-necked people indeed! 14 Let me alone, so that I may destroy them and blot out their name from under heaven. And I will make you into a nation stronger and more numerous than they." 15 So I turned and went down from the mountain while it was ablaze with fire. And the two tablets of the covenant were in my hands. 16 When I looked, I saw that you had sinned against the LORD your God; you had made for yourselves an idol cast in the shape of a calf. You had turned aside quickly from the way that the LORD had commanded you. 17 So I took the two tablets and threw them out of my hands, breaking them to pieces before your eyes. 18 Then once again I fell prostrate before the LORD for forty days and forty nights; I ate no bread and drank no water, because of all the sin you had committed, doing what was evil in the LORD's sight and so provoking him to anger. 19 I feared the anger and wrath of the LORD, for he was angry enough with you to destroy you. But again the LORD listened to me. 20 And the LORD was angry enough with Aaron to destroy him, but at that time I prayed for Aaron too. 21 Also I took that sinful thing of yours, the calf you had made, and burned it in the fire. Then I crushed it and ground it to powder as fine as dust and threw the dust into a stream that flowed down the mountain. 22 You also made the LORD angry at Taberah, at Massah and at Kibroth Hattaavah. 23 And when the LORD sent you out from Kadesh Barnea, he said, "Go up and take possession of the land I have given you." But you rebelled against the command of the LORD your God. You did not trust him or obey him. 24 You have been rebellious against the LORD ever since I have known you. 25 I lay prostrate before the LORD those forty days and forty nights because the LORD had said he would destroy you. 26 I prayed to the LORD and said, "O Sovereign Lord, do not destroy your people, your own inheritance that you redeemed by your great power and brought out of Egypt with a mighty hand. 27 Remember your servants Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Overlook the stubbornness of this people, their wickedness and their sin.

 

[just-want-peace]

God sez:

I will add fifteen years to your life.

Kinda odd to add 15 years to H's life IF the "NEW" date of death was the same "OLD" date of death; in which case God lied! Now do you want to believe THAT???

God said He was ADDING to, henceforth the original date of death was 15 years earlier than the actual date of death.

(To say that one "is at the point of death", if death is not to be for 15 more years, would be a little strange, to say the least!!)
Why do people try to second guess God??????? :tonofbricks:
JUST ACCEPT WHAT HE SAID, and if it conflicts with your understanding, just accept that you are misunderstanding something - don't try to correct God!!!!

 

[Skandelon]

Where did it say God intended to kill Hezekiah ?

You are missing the point. Fine, God didn't intend to kill him, that wasn't the argument. The point was that he was going to die and God acknowledged that he death was going to be very soon, BUT after prayer God changed that by adding 15 years to his life.

In the verses I just quoted you will see this even more clearly as God clearly intends to destroy the Israelites but He relents after Moses intercedes for them. (remember pinoy, our response wasn't to just your comment, it was also to the other comments)

 

[pinoybaptist]

There are a few other texts that support Webdog's claims:

Ex 32:

and

Deut 9:

Webdog said God intended to kill Hezekiah, and I pointed out there is nothing in the text in that Scripture that God said He is going to kill Hezekiah, and Hezekiah was one of the good kings of Israel, not a stiff-necked Israelite.

 

[OldRegular]

In those days Hezekiah became ill and was at the point of death. The prophet Isaiah son of Amoz went to him and said, "This is what the LORD says: Put your house in order, because you are going to die; you will not recover."
2 Hezekiah turned his face to the wall and prayed to the LORD, 3 "Remember, O LORD, how I have walked before you faithfully and with wholehearted devotion and have done what is good in your eyes." And Hezekiah wept bitterly.

4 Then the word of the LORD came to Isaiah: 5 "Go and tell Hezekiah, 'This is what the LORD, the God of your father David, says: I have heard your prayer and seen your tears; I will add fifteen years to your life. 6 And I will deliver you and this city from the hand of the king of Assyria. I will defend this city.

What is new? No one has got out of this world alive since Elijah. You are going to die [unless the LORD returns first] so I believe you are misusing this Scripture!

 

[OldRegular]

There are a few other texts that support Webdog's claims:

Ex 32:

and

Deut 9:

Yielding to your superior knowledge aren't your comments called eisegesis?

 

[OldRegular]

Some seem to ignore the clear intent of the text which says, "I have heard your prayer and seen your tears; I will add fifteen years to your life."

Obviously, the granting of the 15 additional years was in response to the prayer and tears. If that doesn't fit into some people's neat little theological construct, then maybe they should change their theology and stop trying to change the clear rendering of the text.

Well the Word Faith people yank the LORD GOD's change all the time!

 

[jcjordan]

The question presumes God is a Genie or a Santa Claus, who grants requests to anyone who rubs his lamp or send a letter to the North Pole. God is not. God is Heavenly Father, who cares for His children. The futility of the question is realized when one rephrases the question as follows: "If you don't believe that JCJordan's Father will violate JCJordan's free will, then when you ask for JCJordan to help his child, what are you expecting JCJordan's Father to do?"

JohnnV, I accept your correction. You have worded it better. Now, I'm waiting for an answer.

 

[DHK]

What is new? No one has got out of this world alive since Elijah. You are going to die [unless the LORD returns first] so I believe you are misusing this Scripture!

Perhaps Isaiah puts it more clearly:

Isaiah 38:1-2 In those days was Hezekiah sick unto death. And Isaiah the prophet the son of Amoz came unto him, and said unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Set thine house in order: for thou shalt die, and not live.
2 Then Hezekiah turned his face toward the wall, and prayed unto the LORD,

Hezekiah was sick unto death. He wouldn't have had the possibility of dying right then had he not been sick. Thus it says, he was "sick unto death."
Isaiah said specifically: "thou shalt die, and not live." He was speaking of the here and now, for he told him to put his house in order. Death was imminent.
The fact that the Lord answered his prayer and added 15 years to his life, gives no excuse for one to say: "You're going to die anyway so I guess you are misusing Scripture." The one that is avoiding Scripture OR, is you. Isaiah told Hezekiah he was going to die an early death. God answered his prayer and extended it by 15 years. No misuse of Scripture.