Free will isn't free after all

[agedman]

I am posting this in the theology forum, however if the moderators desire it moved elsewhere then they certainly attend to that.

There has been great discussions concerning the matter of "freedom of the will" as it relates to Scripture and decisions. especially that of how one becomes a believer.

There is a short (little less then 7 minutes) video clip that shows how the human mind is not actually free.

I would like for the readers to watch the video and then present some Scripture examples of how the trickery of the mind is shown as factual or not.

This thread isn't to discuss the video, but to see from the psychologically of the human how the will is not free and how then that knowledge expresses itself in Scriptures.

Take some time to watch the video before you comment. Thank you!

Video can be seen here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/reel/video/p0bygzvp/how-magic-helps-us-understand-free-will

 

[Reformed1689]

I am posting this in the theology forum, however if the moderators desire it moved elsewhere then they certainly attend to that.

There has been great discussions concerning the matter of "freedom of the will" as it relates to Scripture and decisions. especially that of how one becomes a believer.

There is a short (little less then 7 minutes) video clip that shows how the human mind is not actually free.

I would like for the readers to watch the video and then present some Scripture examples of how the trickery of the mind is shown as factual or not.

This thread isn't to discuss the video, but to see from the psychologically of the human how the will is not free and how then that knowledge expresses itself in Scriptures.

Take some time to watch the video before you comment. Thank you!

Video can be seen here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/reel/video/p0bygzvp/how-magic-helps-us-understand-free-will

Exactly, free will only exists with parameters, in other words, not absolutely free as in no restrictions. That is the part that people need to understand. There is no such thing as absolute free will.

 

[37818]

Well, two issues. The perception of free will has to do with the fact we are self willed brings. And the Scripture explains our inslavement. Romans 6:19, ". . . I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. . . ."

 

[SavedByGrace]

I am posting this in the theology forum, however if the moderators desire it moved elsewhere then they certainly attend to that.

There has been great discussions concerning the matter of "freedom of the will" as it relates to Scripture and decisions. especially that of how one becomes a believer.

There is a short (little less then 7 minutes) video clip that shows how the human mind is not actually free.

I would like for the readers to watch the video and then present some Scripture examples of how the trickery of the mind is shown as factual or not.

This thread isn't to discuss the video, but to see from the psychologically of the human how the will is not free and how then that knowledge expresses itself in Scriptures.

Take some time to watch the video before you comment. Thank you!

Video can be seen here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/reel/video/p0bygzvp/how-magic-helps-us-understand-free-will

FREE WILL, simply put, is the ability to CHOOSE between options.

When, for example we read in Joshua 24:15-24, "And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, CHOOSE you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, WE WILL SERVE THE LORD. And the people answered and said, God forbid that we should forsake the Lord, to serve other gods.For the Lord our God, he it is that brought us up and our fathers out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage, and which did those great signs in our sight, and preserved us in all the way wherein we went, and among all the people through whom we passed: And the Lord drave out from before us all the people, even the Amorites which dwelt in the land: therefore WE WILL ALSO SERVE THE LORD; for he is our God. And Joshua said unto the people, Ye cannot serve the Lord: for he is an holy God; he is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins. If ye forsake the Lord, and serve strange gods, then he will turn and do you hurt, and consume you, after that he hath done you good. And the people said unto Joshua, Nay; but we will serve the Lord. And Joshua said unto the people, Ye are witnesses against yourselves that ye have CHOSEN you the Lord, to serve him. And they said, We are witnesses. Now therefore put away, said he, the strange gods which are among you, and incline your heart unto the Lord God of Israel. And the people said unto Joshua, The Lord our God WE WILL SERVE, and HIS VOICE WE WILL OBEY.

These people are being asked, not forced, to make their stand, either with the One True God, Yahweh; or the so called "gods" of this evil and corrupt world; whether they would SERVE and be FAITHFUL to Yahweh, or be against Him. It is their CHOICE that they must make. The fact they are asked to CHOOSE, where the Hebrew, "bâchar", means to make a CHOICE after examination. They were given a straight CHOICE between SERVING and FOLLOWING Yahweh, or the FASLSE "gods" of this world. It is very clear, that they CHOSE to follow Yahweh.

In John chapter 5, Jesus has a long conversating with some Jews, who wanted to murder Him, for working on the Sabbath Day, and claiming to be equal with God the Father. Jesus tells these same Jews, "But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe. You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life." (verses 38-40). It is very clear from this passage, that Jesus tells these unbelieving Jews, that they were UNWILLING to go to Jesus, so that they could have Eternal Life. Clearly it was their CHOICE, as the Greek does not say, "the COULD NOT come", but, "they WOULD NOT come". It was not that they were somehow RESTRAINED by the Lord in ACCEPTING Jesus as their SAviour; but they CHOSE not to! Big difference.

We have a very similar encounter with the Jews by Paul and Barnabas, who were witnessing to them of the Lord, in Acts 13. In verses 44-46, we read, "On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God. But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy; and contradicting and blaspheming, they opposed the things spoken by Paul. Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, “It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles"

These Jews were CONTRADICTING and OPPOSING what Paul said to them. Note what Paul tells them, "Since you REJECT it", that is, the Gospel Message for their salvation, and then says, "and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life"; it is these Jews, and not God, who "CONSIDERED THEMSELVES not worthy of Eternal Life". Clearly their CHOICE in REJECTING the Gospel of Salvation; and their DECISION that they were UNWORTHY of this salvation. The Reformed/Calvinist will have us believe, that God so considers the non-elect as UNWORTHY! There is zero Bible evidence that these Jews ever got saved, som they are clearly the NON-ELECT!

ALL sinners are GIVEN by the Lord the ABILITY to either CHOOSE to FOLLOW and SERVE Him; or to CHOOSE this wicked world that we live in. NO one is FORCED by the Lord, Who is supposed to ENABLE the WILL of only the ELECT, so that they can believe in Him. This is NOT what the Bible Teaches, and is perverse theology!

Why a video clip for the perverse, anti Christian BBC on FREE WILL???

 

[Reformed1689]

FREE WILL, simply put, is the ability to CHOOSE between options.

When, for example we read in Joshua 24:15-24, "And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, CHOOSE you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, WE WILL SERVE THE LORD. And the people answered and said, God forbid that we should forsake the Lord, to serve other gods.For the Lord our God, he it is that brought us up and our fathers out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage, and which did those great signs in our sight, and preserved us in all the way wherein we went, and among all the people through whom we passed: And the Lord drave out from before us all the people, even the Amorites which dwelt in the land: therefore WE WILL ALSO SERVE THE LORD; for he is our God. And Joshua said unto the people, Ye cannot serve the Lord: for he is an holy God; he is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins. If ye forsake the Lord, and serve strange gods, then he will turn and do you hurt, and consume you, after that he hath done you good. And the people said unto Joshua, Nay; but we will serve the Lord. And Joshua said unto the people, Ye are witnesses against yourselves that ye have CHOSEN you the Lord, to serve him. And they said, We are witnesses. Now therefore put away, said he, the strange gods which are among you, and incline your heart unto the Lord God of Israel. And the people said unto Joshua, The Lord our God WE WILL SERVE, and HIS VOICE WE WILL OBEY.

These people are being asked, not forced, to make their stand, either with the One True God, Yahweh; or the so called "gods" of this evil and corrupt world; whether they would SERVE and be FAITHFUL to Yahweh, or be against Him. It is their CHOICE that they must make. The fact they are asked to CHOOSE, where the Hebrew, "bâchar", means to make a CHOICE after examination. They were given a straight CHOICE between SERVING and FOLLOWING Yahweh, or the FASLSE "gods" of this world. It is very clear, that they CHOSE to follow Yahweh.

In John chapter 5, Jesus has a long conversating with some Jews, who wanted to murder Him, for working on the Sabbath Day, and claiming to be equal with God the Father. Jesus tells these same Jews, "But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe. You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life." (verses 38-40). It is very clear from this passage, that Jesus tells these unbelieving Jews, that they were UNWILLING to go to Jesus, so that they could have Eternal Life. Clearly it was their CHOICE, as the Greek does not say, "the COULD NOT come", but, "they WOULD NOT come". It was not that they were somehow RESTRAINED by the Lord in ACCEPTING Jesus as their SAviour; but they CHOSE not to! Big difference.

We have a very similar encounter with the Jews by Paul and Barnabas, who were witnessing to them of the Lord, in Acts 13. In verses 44-46, we read, "On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God. But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy; and contradicting and blaspheming, they opposed the things spoken by Paul. Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, “It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles"

These Jews were CONTRADICTING and OPPOSING what Paul said to them. Note what Paul tells them, "Since you REJECT it", that is, the Gospel Message for their salvation, and then says, "and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life"; it is these Jews, and not God, who "CONSIDERED THEMSELVES not worthy of Eternal Life". Clearly their CHOICE in REJECTING the Gospel of Salvation; and their DECISION that they were UNWORTHY of this salvation. The Reformed/Calvinist will have us believe, that God so considers the non-elect as UNWORTHY! There is zero Bible evidence that these Jews ever got saved, som they are clearly the NON-ELECT!

ALL sinners are GIVEN by the Lord the ABILITY to either CHOOSE to FOLLOW and SERVE Him; or to CHOOSE this wicked world that we live in. NO one is FORCED by the Lord, Who is supposed to ENABLE the WILL of only the ELECT, so that they can believe in Him. This is NOT what the Bible Teaches, and is perverse theology!

Why a video clip for the perverse, anti Christian BBC on FREE WILL???

How do any of these examples actually support your view? They don't. There is no such thing as absolute free will.

 

[agedman]

FREE WILL, ...

Why a video clip for the perverse, anti Christian BBC on FREE WILL???

I take it that you didn't watch the video.

So, if that is true, why would you attempt to comment and be able to show from Scriptures examples?

Unless one watches the clip, they really don't know how to appropriately comment.

 

[AustinC]

FREE WILL, simply put, is the ability to CHOOSE between options.

When, for example we read in Joshua 24:15-24, "And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, CHOOSE you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, WE WILL SERVE THE LORD. And the people answered and said, God forbid that we should forsake the Lord, to serve other gods.For the Lord our God, he it is that brought us up and our fathers out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage, and which did those great signs in our sight, and preserved us in all the way wherein we went, and among all the people through whom we passed: And the Lord drave out from before us all the people, even the Amorites which dwelt in the land: therefore WE WILL ALSO SERVE THE LORD; for he is our God. And Joshua said unto the people, Ye cannot serve the Lord: for he is an holy God; he is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins. If ye forsake the Lord, and serve strange gods, then he will turn and do you hurt, and consume you, after that he hath done you good. And the people said unto Joshua, Nay; but we will serve the Lord. And Joshua said unto the people, Ye are witnesses against yourselves that ye have CHOSEN you the Lord, to serve him. And they said, We are witnesses. Now therefore put away, said he, the strange gods which are among you, and incline your heart unto the Lord God of Israel. And the people said unto Joshua, The Lord our God WE WILL SERVE, and HIS VOICE WE WILL OBEY.

These people are being asked, not forced, to make their stand, either with the One True God, Yahweh; or the so called "gods" of this evil and corrupt world; whether they would SERVE and be FAITHFUL to Yahweh, or be against Him. It is their CHOICE that they must make. The fact they are asked to CHOOSE, where the Hebrew, "bâchar", means to make a CHOICE after examination. They were given a straight CHOICE between SERVING and FOLLOWING Yahweh, or the FASLSE "gods" of this world. It is very clear, that they CHOSE to follow Yahweh.

In John chapter 5, Jesus has a long conversating with some Jews, who wanted to murder Him, for working on the Sabbath Day, and claiming to be equal with God the Father. Jesus tells these same Jews, "But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe. You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life." (verses 38-40). It is very clear from this passage, that Jesus tells these unbelieving Jews, that they were UNWILLING to go to Jesus, so that they could have Eternal Life. Clearly it was their CHOICE, as the Greek does not say, "the COULD NOT come", but, "they WOULD NOT come". It was not that they were somehow RESTRAINED by the Lord in ACCEPTING Jesus as their SAviour; but they CHOSE not to! Big difference.

We have a very similar encounter with the Jews by Paul and Barnabas, who were witnessing to them of the Lord, in Acts 13. In verses 44-46, we read, "On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God. But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy; and contradicting and blaspheming, they opposed the things spoken by Paul. Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, “It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles"

These Jews were CONTRADICTING and OPPOSING what Paul said to them. Note what Paul tells them, "Since you REJECT it", that is, the Gospel Message for their salvation, and then says, "and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life"; it is these Jews, and not God, who "CONSIDERED THEMSELVES not worthy of Eternal Life". Clearly their CHOICE in REJECTING the Gospel of Salvation; and their DECISION that they were UNWORTHY of this salvation. The Reformed/Calvinist will have us believe, that God so considers the non-elect as UNWORTHY! There is zero Bible evidence that these Jews ever got saved, som they are clearly the NON-ELECT!

ALL sinners are GIVEN by the Lord the ABILITY to either CHOOSE to FOLLOW and SERVE Him; or to CHOOSE this wicked world that we live in. NO one is FORCED by the Lord, Who is supposed to ENABLE the WILL of only the ELECT, so that they can believe in Him. This is NOT what the Bible Teaches, and is perverse theology!

Why a video clip for the perverse, anti Christian BBC on FREE WILL???

You never watched the video, did you.

 

[Silverhair]

Watched the video and does it show that man can be influenced, YES. Does it show that man can not have a free will, NO. We have a few calvinists on here that use the term absolute free will as if that is what non-calvinists mean when we say man has a free will. Those that harp on about no absolute free will are just being disingenuous and they know it, but they will persist in doing so.

But to the matter at hand. Are mans decisions influenced and does man have a real free will? All the decisions that we make are influenced in one way or another, that is obvious. I do have to question your use of the term trickery in relation to scripture.

But to the main point of your question, "free will". It appears that you are saying that man is being manipulated by God to think they have a free will when in fact they do not. You are calling into question the truthfulness of the whole bible. You may not have intended that but that is the end result.

What you are putting forward is that the gospel message is a form of manipulation, even though we see in the bible that man has the ability to make choices and is held responsible for those choices.

Joh 3:17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
Joh 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

[agedman]

Watched the video and does it show that man can be influenced, YES. Does it show that man can not have a free will, NO. We have a few calvinists on here that use the term absolute free will as if that is what non-calvinists mean when we say man has a free will. Those that harp on about no absolute free will are just being disingenuous and they know it, but they will persist in doing so.

But to the matter at hand. Are mans decisions influenced and does man have a real free will? All the decisions that we make are influenced in one way or another, that is obvious. I do have to question your use of the term trickery in relation to scripture.

But to the main point of your question, "free will". It appears that you are saying that man is being manipulated by God to think they have a free will when in fact they do not. You are calling into question the truthfulness of the whole bible. You may not have intended that but that is the end result.

What you are putting forward is that the gospel message is a form of manipulation, even though we see in the bible that man has the ability to make choices and is held responsible for those choices.

Joh 3:17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
Joh 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

The intent of the video was to show, as you also acknowledged, no decision making is without influence.

The better the skill at manipulation the more successful the manipulator.

Now who is the greatest manipulator?

Is it not the very enemy of the saints?

Does that manipulator desire any expression of "free will?"

The video shows small trickery can easily manipulate the person without their conscious mind knowing that manipulation has taken place.

When applied to soteriology how much not powerful the enemy of the saints has a hold upon the unsaved.

Each person was shown in the video as making a "free choice" but was not the choice predetermined by the manipulator?

That is the point.

The greatest manipulator of all, allows the world to think that they can make a free choice, but it is mere trickery.

 

[Silverhair]

The intent of the video was to show, as you also acknowledged, no decision making is without influence.

The better the skill at manipulation the more successful the manipulator.

Now who is the greatest manipulator?

Is it not the very enemy of the saints?

Does that manipulator desire any expression of "free will?"

The video shows small trickery can easily manipulate the person without their conscious mind knowing that manipulation has taken place.

When applied to soteriology how much not powerful the enemy of the saints has a hold upon the unsaved.

Each person was shown in the video as making a "free choice" but was not the choice predetermined by the manipulator?

That is the point.

The greatest manipulator of all, allows the world to think that they can make a free choice, but it is mere trickery.

Do you not trust scripture.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
Joh 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Mat_24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

You want us to believe that Satan, the enemy of God, would just trick people into thinking they have a free will to believe the gospel message. Do you not think that would have him working against himself? Satan wants people to not believe at all.

Real free will is a reality and God will hold man responsible for those free will decisions. The bible is clear man has to make choices and to deny that is to deny the bible.

 

[Silverhair]

Actually, agedman, you need to rethink what you said about Satan. As you say he is a manipulator. He hates God, he does not want anyone to trust in God for their salvation. This you should agree on. So the question is, how best to accomplish that task.

He could, as you say,
teach them that they have a real choice of following God or not, it is up to them to trust the gospel message or reject it.
or
he could convince them that they have to do nothing as God has already picked out the ones to be saved and if your not part of that group then you can not do anything to become part of that group.

Now if you wanted to keep as many people as possible out of heaven which option would you choose? 1] You can make a real choice or 2] You can do nothing.

You have inadvertently made a very good argument for man having a real God given free will and that is just what you find in the bible.

 

[agedman]

Actually, agedman, you need to rethink what you said about Satan. As you say he is a manipulator. He hates God, he does not want anyone to trust in God for their salvation. This you should agree on. So the question is, how best to accomplish that task.

He could, as you say,
teach them that they have a real choice of following God or not, it is up to them to trust the gospel message or reject it.
or
he could convince them that they have to do nothing as God has already picked out the ones to be saved and if your not part of that group then you can not do anything to become part of that group.

Now if you wanted to keep as many people as possible out of heaven which option would you choose? 1] You can make a real choice or 2] You can do nothing.

You have inadvertently made a very good argument for man having a real God given free will and that is just what you find in the bible.

Who does the enemy skulk about see who can be devoured? Those that are already bound in sin and death and those already rebellious to righteousness, or those who are and will be believers?

Do you remember the parable of the seed and sower?

The various “soils” were the state of humans, right?

The question is, who is in charge of the land? Who decides the soil is too rocky or shallow to work into good earth, where the road will be, how much seed is sown, and what preparation and watering is done?

As Paul said, Apollos and he worked together to get the seed out, make sure it was watered, but it was God who gave the increase.

However, this thread isn’t really about those things; rather, the thread is upon the thinking that folks make a choice out of freedom, yet it is just not true. The video shows this from a non-biblical side, and I desired to see who could show from Scriptures biblical examples either supporting or not the video premise.

Sorry we got side tracked a bit into soteriology views.

 

[AustinC]

Do you not trust scripture.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
Joh 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Mat_24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

You want us to believe that Satan, the enemy of God, would just trick people into thinking they have a free will to believe the gospel message. Do you not think that would have him working against himself? Satan wants people to not believe at all.

Real free will is a reality and God will hold man responsible for those free will decisions. The bible is clear man has to make choices and to deny that is to deny the bible.

You quote theses verses (which have already been discussed elsewhere) as though they argue for your philosophy of free will. If you imagine they teach free will, you have a fantasy world created from verses that don't teach what you think they teach.

 

[Silverhair]

You quote theses verses (which have already been discussed elsewhere) as though they argue for your philosophy of free will. If you imagine they teach free will, you have a fantasy world created from verses that don't teach what you think they teach.

Austin if you are ignorant of what the bible says then perhaps you should take more time to educate yourself. I have pointed out your errors but you do not want to learn from me so it would be better if you search for someone that will support your view.

 

[Silverhair]

Who does the enemy skulk about see who can be devoured? Those that are already bound in sin and death and those already rebellious to righteousness, or those who are and will be believers?

As I said why would the devil waste his time trying devour those that are already his. He would be trying to devour those that trust in God so as to turn them away from God. The devil has limited power so why waste it when he does not need to.

Do you remember the parable of the seed and sower?

The various “soils” were the state of humans, right?

The question is, who is in charge of the land? Who decides the soil is too rocky or shallow to work into good earth, where the road will be, how much seed is sown, and what preparation and watering is done?

As Paul said, Apollos and he worked together to get the seed out, make sure it was watered, but it was God who gave the increase.

However, this thread isn’t really about those things; rather, the thread is upon the thinking that folks make a choice out of freedom, yet it is just not true. The video shows this from a non-biblical side, and I desired to see who could show from Scriptures biblical examples either supporting or not the video premise.

Actually you can see free will displayed each time that they speak about the gospel message. If man does not have a free will then why the gospel message? If God has already pick those that are going to be saved and those that will be condemned then the story of Christ Jesus is unnecessary. You can not say it is so that those that are going to be saved will hear it and believe as according to calvinism those people are already assured of salvation whether Christ was crucified or not.

Man having a free will is the only thing that makes Christ being crucified necessary.

Sorry we got side tracked a bit into soteriology views.

I was looking forward to you getting back so we could continue this discussion.

 

[agedman]

Actually you can see free will displayed each time that they speak about the gospel message. If man does not have a free will then why the gospel message? If God has already pick those that are going to be saved and those that will be condemned then the story of Christ Jesus is unnecessary. You can not say it is so that those that are going to be saved will hear it and believe as according to calvinism those people are already assured of salvation whether Christ was crucified or not.

The Scriptures state that:

19Nevertheless, God’s firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord must turn away from iniquity.”
20A large house contains not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay. Some indeed are for honorable use, but others are for common use. 21So if anyone cleanses himself of what is unfit, he will be a vessel for honor: sanctified, useful to the Master, and prepared for every good work.
​

This verse seems important to the discussion, because it shows the freedom of the will occurs after salvation not prior to salvation. What is the estate of the human prior to salvation? Does not the Scriptures use terms such as bound, blind, slave, conformed, ungodly, rebellious, unrighteous, ...

Paul also presents in the discussion through Romans that one is either redeemed from the law or under the law. Even those who are not Jews are under the law, as he states in Romans 2:14.

Man having a free will is the only thing that makes Christ being crucified necessary.

Not certain why you would consider this thinking as valid, can you present some Scripture foundation for the view?

I was looking forward to you getting back so we could continue this discussion.

I am always thankful that I can still stir folks to think and more firmly hold to Scripture.

 

[Silverhair]

The Scriptures state that:

19Nevertheless, God’s firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord must turn away from iniquity.”
20A large house contains not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay. Some indeed are for honorable use, but others are for common use. 21So if anyone cleanses himself of what is unfit, he will be a vessel for honor: sanctified, useful to the Master, and prepared for every good work.
​

This verse seems important to the discussion, because it shows the freedom of the will occurs after salvation not prior to salvation. What is the estate of the human prior to salvation? Does not the Scriptures use terms such as bound, blind, slave, conformed, ungodly, rebellious, unrighteous, ...

Paul also presents in the discussion through Romans that one is either redeemed from the law or under the law. Even those who are not Jews are under the law, as he states in Romans 2:14.


Not certain why you would consider this thinking as valid, can you present some Scripture foundation for the view?


I am always thankful that I can still stir folks to think and more firmly hold to Scripture.

2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: "The Lord knows those who are His," and, "Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity."

As context will show you, those that are expected to depart from iniquity are those that are already believers. {2Ti 2:15-20} Do you agree?

And yes it does show that they have a God given free will. That is not in question here. The real question is do those that have not yet trusted in Christ Jesus have a God given free will.

The following verses show that they in fact do. They show that salvation is conditional. People can have an intellectual agreement to the gospel but never put their trust in Christ Jesus for salvation. The person that trusts the gospel message and responds by calling out to God for their salvation will be saved.

Joe 2:32 And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the LORD Shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be deliverance, As the LORD has said, Among the remnant whom the LORD calls

Act 2:21 AND IT SHALL COME TO PASS THAT WHOEVER CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED.'

Rom 10:13 For "WHOEVER CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED.
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?

Rom 10:13-14 is a clear a statement of free will. Those that call out the Lord are those that have heard the message of salvation proclaimed to them. Note that is the person has to call out before they are saved.


Rom 2:14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,
Rom 2:15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)

God created mankind with a conscience. It is from this conscience that man is able to determine good and bad, as Paul points out. So, when the gospel is preached and heard, man is faced with a choice. To either believe the gospel or not.

Once again we see free will prior to salvation. Man has to make choices and he is able to do so because God gives him the free will to do so and will hold man responsible for the choices they make.

Silverhair said: ↑
Man having a free will is the only thing that makes Christ being crucified necessary.​

Not certain why you would consider this thinking as valid, can you present some Scripture foundation for the view?

You ask why I would say that? I will try to clear that up for you.

Logic would dictate that if all that were to be saved were already pick out, as per calvinism, and could not be lost and that their salvation was not based upon anything that they would do but was only because God had chosen them, then why was the cross necessary. In your theology those people could not be lost, they were guaranteed to be saved. It is your theology that makes the cross unnecessary not the bible.

If man does not have a real God given free will where his choices have real consequences then whether he trust in or rejects Christ Jesus really does not matter does it. The future of all mankind is set in stone, so to speak. Another thing you should consider, if your theology says that only the elect can and will be saved then all that are not elect are condemned with no hope of salvation and this because God did not elect them.

“As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so He hath, by the eternal and most free purpose of His will, foreordained all the means thereunto;13 wherefore they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ,14 are effectually called unto faith in Christ, by His Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified,15 and kept by His power through faith unto salvation;16 neither are any other redeemed by Christ, or effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.” {OF GOD’S DECREE Chap 3 Par 6 LBCF}

 

[AustinC]

@Silverhair wrote:
Another thing you should consider, if your theology says that only the elect can and will be saved then all that are not elect are condemned with no hope of salvation and this because God did not elect them.

To the words in red. NO!!!
Do you really believe that nonsense statement of yours???
People are condemned because they are sinners, Silverhair. It's that simple. You cannot blame God for not choosing them and say that is the cause of their condemnation.
Your claim is just wrong.

 

[SovereignGrace]

To the words in red. NO!!!
Do you really believe that nonsense statement of yours???
People are condemned because they are sinners, Silverhair. It's that simple. You cannot blame God for not choosing them and say that is the cause of their condemnation.
Your claim is just wrong.

Pay him no mind...he just makes things up as he goes.

 

[Silverhair]

To the words in red. NO!!!
Do you really believe that nonsense statement of yours???
People are condemned because they are sinners, Silverhair. It's that simple. You cannot blame God for not choosing them and say that is the cause of their condemnation.
Your claim is just wrong.

Excuse me are you not the one that says God is sovereign and nothing happens unless He causes it to happen.
Ar you now going to deny your own confession?

are redeemed by Christ,14 are effectually called unto faith in Christ, by His Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified,15 and kept by His power through faith unto salvation;16 neither are any other redeemed by Christ, or effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.” {OF GOD’S DECREE Chap 3 Par 6 LBCF}

You calvinists are just unbelievable you want God to decree all things, and since sin is a thing, God by your own confession makes that so. Then in the same confession He it says that He will only save the elect, so that means that everyone else is doomed before they are even born or have sinned. Your calvinist god is not the God of the bible, as your confessions make clear, but you will claim that I do not understand those confessions. Your problem is that I do understand what is written there including the attempts to avoid the obvious effect of their words.