Free will makes God appear impotent.

[convicted1]

Free will makes God appear impotent..



I keep hearing…and reading…how God has given fallen mankind free will, and with this free will, they can either exercise it and be saved, or refuse to use it and die lost. In this schema, it renders God impotent, bowing to man’s will over His. It puts sinners in the proverbial driver’s seat, and not God…they are the “fulfillers” or their own destiny. Now, before I delve into His Word, let’s learn the definition of “free will” and also “free”.


I fouhd this definiton of free will from the merriam-webster website:

free will noun


: the ability to choose how to act

: the ability to make choices that are not controlled by fate or God



Look closely at that last line; “the ability to make choices that are not controlled by fate or god.” Now, if that doesn’t render God impotent, then what does? I agree that sinners have a will, yet that will is not “free”, but it is bound to it’s nature. An apple tree can produce nothing other than apples. To do so would be contrary to it’s nature. Only outside influences such as grafting can make it produce another type of apple. I touched on this very subject a few blogs ago, so I’ll leave it here.


Now onto the definition of “free” from the merriam-webster website:



free adjective


: not costing any money

: not held as a slave or prisoner

Again, look closely at that last line; “not held as a slave or prisoner.” The record of God easily refutes that notion, and I’ll get to it later on in this blog.


So to be free, means you have no restraints, no restrictions, you are free to go wherever you want, whenever you want. I am free in the United States to go anywhere I choose to go. If I want to go to Kentucky…I live in West Virginia…I don’t have to get prior approval to go there. I can go there at 3:00 PM in the day or 5:00 AM in the morning. Not so with God. In John 6, Jesus states this, “No man can come unto Me, except the Father which sent Me hath drawn him: and I will raise him up at the last day.”(John 6:44) If someone has true freedom of will, then there would be no need of waiting on God’s call…they can come anytime they choose to, be free…free willed creatures. Yet, they can not come unless/until they are drawn. So that shows that sinners aren’t “free” at all. Sinners have sin that holds them back, holds them in bonds, not letting them come to God any time they choose to. They are mastered by sin, by Satan, and his yoke is heavy, and constantly holds them back. Jesus spoke of His yoke that He bestows unto His sheep in this fashion; “For My yoke is easy, and My burden is Light.” (Matthew 11:30) God has to come and break that “yoke of bondage” that Satan has on sinners before they can come to Him. To back up to verse 28 and 29 in Matthew 28, Jesus said, “Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.” God has to first break that “yoke of bondage” and then, He puts His yoke upon them, because you can not have two yokes upon you at the same time. Jesus stated that this way…“No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.” (Matthew 6:24) God has to first, break Satan’s yoke off of sinners, second, draw them to Himself, and third, place His yoke upon them. In all of this, how is a sinner free? How do they have the ability to exercise their free will?



Now onto that which I wanted to discuss concerning the “free” definition stated thusly: “not held as a slave or prisoner.” As sinners, we are slaves unto sin, and there’s no getting around this. We will always have a master/Master. We are going to be slaves to either Satan or God. As sinners, Satan was our master, and we were his slaves. Apostle Paul wrote about this in Romans 6 when he wrote, “But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.” Read closely that portion I put in bold and see what Apostle Paul wrote, and meant. We were servants of sin, and Satan our master, when we were sinners. When God quickened us and called us with an holy calling, through the effectual calling, we then became servants of God. Again, where is the freedom, the freedom of the will being exercised by sinners at? I am just not seeing it being shown here. True freedom in Christ is slavery unto Him. Apostle Paul stated this more than once when he said in Romans 1, “Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,” and in Philippians 1 he wrote, “Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons.” Then in Titus 1 he wrote, “Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness.” And finally in Philemon, he wrote, “Paul, a prisoner of Jesus Christ, and Timothy our brother, unto Philemon our dearly beloved, and fellowlabour.” I have shown you four places where Apostle Paul referred to himself as a servant/prisioner of Jesus Christ. True freedom is being bound to God.


Where sinners are “free” is the movement of their will in restraints to their nature. They will always chose that which is the most pleasing to themselves. They freely choose to go to the ball game over church. They choose to sleep with another person outside their marriage, they choose to take something that does not belong to them. Now, not everyone is a theif, not everyone is a whoremonger, not everyone is a liar, &c. But they will choose that which suits them the best.



I pray that this blog post doesn’t cause any confusion on the reader’s part. I did the very best I could to explain that sinners, being dead in their trespasses and sins, being blinded and deaf, aren’t in the least bit “free” as merriam-webster defines “free”. I leave you with this small passage to ponder on:



“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.In him was life; and the life was the light of men.And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.” (John 1:1-5) I actually like the ESV’s rendering of verse 5 better when it states, “and the darkness has not overcome it.”

Okay Brothers.....debate......but a heads up to two guys...Winman and Van...I have you on ignore, so you won't be getting any responses from me....

Your incessant ripping the context from the binding has polluted my eyes looooong enough. :thumbsup:



ETA: I wrote this on my blog.......

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Okay Brothers.....debate......but a heads up to two guys...Winman and Van...I have you on ignore, so you won't be getting any responses from me....

Your incessant ripping the context from the binding has polluted my eyes looooong enough. :thumbsup:



ETA: I wrote this on my blog.......

Willis....Where do you have Free Will and where does God intervene? See, there are those who I refer to as "Absoluters" who believe God intervenes in everything we do...that we never choose anything.....the simple scratching of my nose is directed by God for example. Now that would make us mere puppets and I believe would lead us to a truely "Hyper Calvinistic " view of life. Further I believe that most Non Calvinists view Doctrines of Grace theology believers as 'Absoluter ' practitioners. Can you speak to that? Thank you.

 

[convicted1]

Willis....Where do you have Free Will and where does God intervene? See, there are those who I refer to as "Absoluters" who believe God intervenes in everything we do...that we never choose anything.....the simple scratching of my nose is directed by God for example. Now that would make us mere puppets and I believe would lead us to a truely "Hyper Calvinistic " view of life. Further I believe that most Non Calvinists view Doctrines of Grace theology believers as 'Absoluter ' practitioners. Can you speak to that? Thank you.

We act according to our nature. Our will is bound by our nature. We can not not breathe, because it's contrary to our nature. Sure, we can hold our breath, but we'll eventually pass out and automatically start breathing again.

God seeks us out, we were His sheep, having gone astray. Deut. 32:10....

 

[convicted1]

And no, when we scratch our nose, that wasn't part and parcel to His divine plan...

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

We act according to our nature. Our will is bound by our nature. We can not not breathe, because it's contrary to our nature. Sure, we can hold our breath, but we'll eventually pass out and automatically start breathing again.

God seeks us out, we were His sheep, having gone astray. Deut. 32:10....

I'm sorry....you are not answering my question. Again, where do you see God intervening to make humans complete...ie in line with Gods plan.....then, where do you see Him allowing us free will?

 

[Deacon]

“As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today. So do not fear...” (Genesis 50:20–21a, ESV)

 

[convicted1]

I'm sorry....you are not answering my question. Again, where do you see God intervening to make humans complete...ie in line with Gods plan.....then, where do you see Him allowing us free will?

I am not sure I am following you... I thought I answered you....but here goes....


In the lives of sinners, they...and us...were/are fleeing from God. We..and they...enjoyed their sinful lives. God, in His time, seeks us out. He effectually calls us out from amongst the world, via the gospel.

Look at it like this. We're driving in a car headed for hell. We know it, people warn us, and yet, we joyfully are heading there, enjoying our sinning. God then comes in and steers us and turns us around via repentance. The rest He leaves to go on their merry way.


In regards to christians, we don't truly have free will, in regards to will. Because when push comes to shove, we'll say, "Thy will be done on earth, as it is in heaven."

Anything else you need clarified? Please let me know....

 

[convicted1]

We move as freely as the oxen do within their master's yoke, Brother Steve.....

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

We move as freely as the oxen do within their master's yoke, Brother Steve.....

All right then Willis.....were is it vital for God to direct us.....for him to intervene......elsewise we would fall to perdition? Where you cant be trusted to make that selection?

 

[Winman]

When the scriptures say a man is a servant to sin, it is not saying that a man is compelled to always sin. And when the scriptures say a man is a servant to righteousness, it is not saying that man is always compelled to do right.

A servant can be disobedient to his master. A servant of sin can refuse to do wrong and do right. Likewise, a servant of righteousness can refuse to do right and do wrong.

So, how are we servants or slaves of sin or righteousness? We are servants or slaves in the sense that sin or righteousness owns us, as persons were purchased in the ancient slave markets. If you were purchased, your master LEGALLY owned you, you were his POSSESSION. You could run away from your master, but he could send the law after you and apprehend you and you would be returned to your master,

When we sin, we are "sold to sin" as Paul said in Romans 7:14;

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Once you knowingly and willingly sin, you are sold under sin. Now sin owns you, he is your master, and you are his possession. His wage is death, and there is nothing you can do to escape this except DIE.

This is how Paul is speaking of us throughout the book of Romans, we were servants or slaves to sin, and the wage of sin is DEATH.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

This does not mean you are compelled to sin, this does not mean that all you can do is sin. A servant or slave can disobey his master. Christians are servants to righteousness, but we sin all the time. So this idea that we are a slave to our nature and this is all we can do is completely false, and that is NOT what the scriptures are saying. No, the scriptures are teaching we are OWNED by sin or righteousness as POSSESSIONS.

Sinners can obey the gospel, it is clearly shown in scripture. And the moment we do, we are baptized into Jesus's death. We die with him to sin. Now sin no longer owns us as a possession. Now we are purchased by the blood of Christ and belong to him. Now Jesus is our master and owns us.

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Romans 6:16-18 demolishes the false doctrine of Total Inability. Paul says to whom we yield ourselves we become servants, whether (option) of sin unto death, or (option) obedience unto righteousness.

This verse clearly shows men have the option and ability to obey either sin or righteousness, sin and righteousness being personified in this scripture.

In verse 17 Paul thanks God that these Romans who were servants or slaves of sin have obeyed the gospel delivered them.

Now this is important, did they have to be regenerated to obey the gospel, or were they able to obey the gospel while they were still servants of sin?

They were able to obey the gospel while they were servants or slaves to sin. So Total Inability is a false doctrine refuted by scripture.

And verse 18 tells us "Being then", that is, the moment they obeyed the gospel, it was THEN that they were made FREE from sin and BECAME the servants or slaves of righteousness. We do not have to be made servants of righteousness to obey the gospel as many falsely teach, we obey the gospel to BECOME servants of righteousness. This is what the scriptures truly teach.

Why were they made free? Because they DIED to sin "in Jesus". Now we belong to Jesus and are his possession, purchased by his blood. Now, we cannot escape Jesus, because we cannot die! He gives us everlasting life, so we cannot die to Jesus and be set free from him, we are his possession FOREVER. That doesn't mean we cannot be disobedient and sin, Christians sin all the time.

So again, this teaching that we are compelled by our nature to sin (or do righteousness) is pure falsehood and not what the scriptures are teaching.

Willis can ignore this, but folks who really want to understand the scriptures can study this and learn.

 

[convicted1]

All right then Willis.....were is it vital for God to direct us.....for him to intervene......elsewise we would fall to perdition? Where you cant be trusted to make that selection?

Psalm 37:22-24 (YLT)

22 For His blessed ones do possess the land, And His reviled ones are cut off.

23 From Jehovah [are] the steps of a man, They have been prepared, And his way he desireth.

24 When he falleth, he is not cast down, For Jehovah is sustaining his hand



2 Cor. 6:17 (YLT) wherefore, come ye forth out of the midst of them, and be separated, saith the Lord, and an unclean thing do not touch, and I -- I will receive you,


James 1:26-27 (YLT)

26 If any one doth think to be religious among you, not bridling his tongue, but deceiving his heart, of this one vain [is] the religion;

27 religion pure and undefiled with the God and Father is this, to look after orphans and widows in their tribulation -- unspotted to keep himself from the world.


I think progressive sanctification is what I am driving at.

 

[Revmitchell]

I keep hearing…and reading…how God has given fallen mankind free will, and with this free will, they can either exercise it and be saved, or refuse to use it and die lost. In this schema, it renders God impotent, bowing to man’s will over His.

Seriously, this is a rather sophomoric statement that, at best, was just not thought out well.

If God is the one who set that up and planned it to be that way then how could one make such a claim? Understanding here that is was God who set it up that way.

Let me say this again: It was God who set it up that way.

That fact alone negates the sophomoric statement from the op.

 

[Rippon]

Seriously, this is a rather sophomoric statement that, at best, was just not thought out well.

Seriously, rm, it was the truth.

If God is the one who set that up and planned it to be that way then how could one make such a claim?

If is the operative word. Calvinists and all biblically-oriented people do not share your view. People don't sit in the driver's seat. We don't have the key to our salvation. God is the Author and Finisher of our faith. Since you believe in free-will you are the one responsible for your own salvation --God is at the mercy of your decision.

Understanding here that it was God who set it up that way.

Let me say this again: It was God who set it up that way.

Repeating an untruth doesn't make it so.

That fact alone negates the sophomoric statement from the op.

It is fact that free-will is not a fact.

 

[Winman]

I keep hearing…and reading…how God has given fallen mankind free will, and with this free will, they can either exercise it and be saved, or refuse to use it and die lost. In this schema, it renders God impotent, bowing to man’s will over His. It puts sinners in the proverbial driver’s seat, and not God…they are the “fulfillers” or their own destiny. Now, before I delve into His Word, let’s learn the definition of “free will” and also “free”.

What we have is the freedom to submit to God and be saved, or to rebel against God and be damned. How does submitting to God usurp his sovereignty?

Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Who made this rule? Man? NO, God is the one who has said he that believes shall be saved, and he that believes not shall be damned. God made the rules, God is calling all the shots.

God is only going to save those persons who believe on Jesus. If you don't believe on Jesus he is going to cast you in the lake of fire.

This argument from Calvinists that believing on Jesus usurps God's sovereignty is pure nonsence. Believing is called "obeying" the gospel.

Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

Believers have obeyed God, how can obeying God usurp his sovereignty? Absurd!

Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

It is unbelievers that do not obey God. It is unbelievers who usurp God's sovereignty.

Calvinism once again teaches the exact opposite of scripture. Calvinism teaches that folks who submit to God and obey him, believing on Jesus are usurping God's sovereignty. Ridiculous.

 

[tyndale1946]

When I think of free will I have to ask myself one question and I don't think anyone will disagree on here that Adam had free will and look what happened. He plunged him and Eve and ALL mankind into SIN! That being said would God now TRUST Adam with that free will after he had sinned come to God on his own volition and live forever? That is what those who claim Free Will are saying! "MAN BY AN ACT OF WILL CAN ATTAIN DIVINITY!"

 

[padredurand]

When I think of free will I have to ask myself one question and I don't think anyone will disagree on here that Adam had free will and look what happened. He plunged him and Eve and ALL mankind into SIN! That being said would God now TRUST Adam with that free will after he had sinned come to God on his own volition and live forever? That is what those who claim Free Will are saying! "MAN BY AN ACT OF WILL CAN ATTAIN DIVINITY!"

Sophistry! That all-in-caps statement is a leap Evel Knievel would not have made. I triple dog dare you to find one single proponent of Free Will that makes the claim of attaining divinity through the act of human will.

It does not depend on any power or merit in man; no, not in any degree, neither in whole, nor in part. It does not in anywise depend either on the good works or righteousness of the receiver; not on anything he has done, or anything he is. It does not depend on his endeavors. It does not depend on his good tempers, or good desires, or good purposes and intentions; for all these flow from the free grace of God; they are the streams only, not the fountain. They are the fruits of free grace, and not the root. They are not the cause, but the effects of it. Whatsoever good is in man, or is done by man, God is the author and doer of it. Thus is his grace free in all; that is, no way depending on any power or merit in man, but on God alone, who freely gave us his own Son, and "with him freely giveth us all things. - "John Wesley

 

[salzer mtn]

Man has a free will but only in the realm of his nature. God gives wicked men freedom of will to operate in the bounds of their wicked mind. Even when it comes to natural ability we are not free to do what we want to do. Most people have limitations of skill, vocabulary, strength and so on. I may want to do something or become something but I must have the power to perform. I will to be rich but do I have the resources ? I may will to be of another nationality but can I change my skin ? Take for example the animal kingdom. A animals diet is controlled by it's nature. Try feeding a cow a steak or a dog hay, they won't eat, Why ? they are controlled by their nature. Now try forcing salvation on a lost man, he will not have it. It's all foolishness to him. What will change this lost man's will ? regeneration when God takes away the stony heart and put's in a heart of flesh.

 

[tyndale1946]

Sophistry! That all-in-caps statement is a leap Evel Knievel would not have made. I triple dog dare you to find one single proponent of Free Will that makes the claim of attaining divinity through the act of human will.

So you don't believe in Total Depravity either? Well I do If you don't. Just stating my position sorry for the caps.

 

[Rippon]

Sophistry! That all-in-caps statement is a leap Evel Knievel would not have made. I triple dog dare you to find one single proponent of Free Will that makes the claim of attaining divinity through the act of human will.

This Calvinist also repudiates that remark by t1946.

 

[padredurand]

If you feel compelled to be critical of any notion of free will take a few moments and educate yourself on how it is viewed by those who hold to it.


Articles of Religion of the Methodist Church (1784)

We believe man is fallen from righteousness and, apart from the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, is destitute of holiness and inclined to evil. Except a man be born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God. In his own strength, without divine grace, man cannot do good works pleasing and acceptable to God. We believe, however, man influenced and empowered by the Holy Spirit is responsible in freedom to exercise his will for good.​

Artice VII of the former Evangelical United Brethren (1963):

We believe man is fallen from righteousness and, apart from the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, is destitute of holiness and inclined to evil. Except a man be born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God. In his own strength, without divine grace, man cannot do good works pleasing and acceptable to God. We believe, however, man influenced and empowered by the Holy Spirit is responsible in freedom to exercise his will for good.​