Free Will Proves The Sovereignty of God

[Inspector Javert]

Oh yeah, I have been called a Pelagian by the Calvinists here probably a hundred times. Not having read Pelagius, I really don't know if I am a Pelagian or not, but I am not afraid of their name-calling. When folks have to call you names, it just proves they are losing the debate. :thumbs:

I tell you what, I would rather be called a Pelagian than an Augustinian or Calvinist any day of the week. I don't know much about Pelagius, but I know enough about Augustine and Calvin that I would NEVER want to be associated with either.

Meh...nothing he ever said was really that debateable at all actually...there isn't ANY extant writing of his which could reasonably be used to declare him a "heretic" on anything.

Most of his writing is amazingly non-controversial....but, alas....anything he MAY have written which is un-orthodox, has already been burned ......so....good luck.

That's what Calvinists usually do....they burn the works of those who disagree. What's new? Heck, they'll burn your personal body if your name is "Michael Servetus"..

 

[The Biblicist]

Yes, God cannot act inconsistent with His own nature and neither can fallen man. Nature dictates His choices and actions as it does in fallen man.

But your whole argument rests upon justice and that is not a good basis to start from when we are dealing with fallen man as justice has but one verdict and it is not mercy. Mercy is something that justice knows nothing about.

Justice would demand "there is none righteous no not one" and justice would find nothing as a ground of mercy in any fallen human being but condemn all equally and justly and that is not merely God's perogative but that is what justice would demand for all sinners equally. Justice is without partiality in regard to sinners and it has only one just outcome - eternal wrath.

Thus all have sinned and come short of the glory of God and justice has but one outcome equally for all without respect of persons.

Now, what is there in any sinner above another that would cause God to have respect of persons of one over another??? There is NOTHING.

Here is where election enters into view. Election is "to salvation" and "salvation" presupposes a fallen and justly condemned condition. That election is "of grace" and thus an act of "mercy" as the very term "mercy" presuppose just condemnation of all sinners equally without respect of persons then election must be based upon something other JUSTICE. This proper order grounded upon mercy instead of justice is significant to grasp as no one can call upon justice to demand mercy, but that is precisely the Arminian presumptive basis for their charge against unconditional election which is based upon mercy not justice and therefore God can be just in discriminating upon whom he will have mercy, just as long as He satisfies the just demands of His law against them. Therefore the non-elect get pure justice while the elect are saved purely upon the grounds of grace, meaning there is nothing in them that deserves salvation over the non-elect. The cause is found in God's own purpose of grace without violating His justice whatsoever.

Therefore, He can have mercy upon whom he will have mercy and he can hardeneth whom he will hardneth - without violating His justice in the least beacuse ALL EQUALLY deserve condemnation and NONE can demand mercy. Jesus came into the world NOT TO CONDEMN the world BECAUSE IT WAS CONDEMNED ALREADY. He came to save all that the Father gave him (Jn. 17:2; Jn. 6:37-39) to give eternal life unto without violating any justice toward those "condemned ALREADY" or the non-elect who deserve only justice. Who is it that charges God's unconditional elective grace as being unfair? Only Arminians that do not understand the Justice of God

Just a summary note to what I stated above: The elective grace of God is God's undeserving love in saving some when Justice calls for the wholeale just condemnation of all men equally. Apart from God's elective mercy all mankind would only know of God's justice who deserve only justice and no mercy - thus the rest of mankind receiving exactly what they deserve - justice! And so who can cry foul? None! So who are you that replieth against God, that is not fair??? Just Arminians who do not have a true sense of God's Justice.

 

[Luke2427]

So.....if God has already revealed himself as someone who is unlikely to, or wouldn't conduct "chess-matches" with himself...than, it's unlikely that any Theology which purports that he does so is accurate.
Mind you....it's ABSOLUTELY his prerogative if he felt like it or wanted to, to play that very chess. Heck...God can use us as mere pawns and play with himself or even Satan if it were his will and simply sacrifice us pawns as he saw fit....IT's his prerogative for sure.

BUT.....That's not how God's nature has revealed itself to us, Luke. It isn't that we INSIST that "if there were a Sovereign God...he must conform to our preference."....it's that he obviously DOES exist and he has revealed himself to us as one who simply WON'T!
.

No sir, that is patently false. That is not how God has revealed himself in Scripture.

God has revealed himself in Scripture as one who has unbridled, unmitigated control of everything.

God DID reveal himself as a potter and we as nothing but clay that he molds howsoever he chooses.

Notice you just SAID God does not reveal himself that way. You just SAID it. No support for that claim. You just said it. And, brother, let me tell you why. I was a Free Will Baptist for years and I know why you just said it and offered no Scripture and no support for it.

It is because you have never even CONSIDERED that it could be otherwise.

You just thought that the idea of God being in control of everything at all times must not be so, and that is where you started.

But the Bible teaches that that thing which you right now find UNTHINKABLE is absolutely true.

Exod 4:11 Then the Lord said to him, “Who has made man’s mouth? Who makes him mute, or deaf, or seeing, or blind? Is it not I, the Lord?

Deut 32:39 See now that I, even I, am He, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand.

2 Chr 20:6 and said, “O Lord, God of our fathers, are you not God in heaven? You rule over all the kingdoms of the nations. In your hand are power and might, so that none is able to withstand You.

Ps 103:19 The Lord has established His throne in the heavens, and His kingdom rules over all.

Ps 115:3 Our God is in the heavens; He does all that He pleases.

Ps 135:6 Whatever the Lord pleases, He does, in heaven and on earth, in the seas and all deeps.

Isa 45:5-7 I am the Lord, and there is no other, besides Me there is no God; I equip you, though you do not know me, that people may know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is none besides Me; I am the Lord, and there is no other. I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the Lord, who does all these things.

Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all My purpose,’

Dan 4:35 All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and He does according to His will among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay His hand or say to Him, “What have you done?”

Luke 1:37 For nothing will be impossible with God.

Acts 4:27-28 For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your plan had predestined to take place.

Acts 17:26 And He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place

Rev 17:17 For God has put it into their hearts to carry out His purpose by being of one mind and handing over their royal power to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled.

Exod 10:1-2 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Go in to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the heart of his servants, that I may show these signs of mine among them, and that you may tell in the hearing of your son and of your grandson how I have dealt harshly with the Egyptians and what signs I have done among them, that you may know that I am the Lord.”

Exod 12:36 And the Lord had given the people favor in the sight of the Egyptians, so that they let them have what they asked. Thus they plundered the Egyptians.

Exod 14:17 And I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians so that they shall go in after them, and I will get glory over Pharaoh and all his host, his chariots, and his horsemen.

Deut 2:30 But Sihon the king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him, for the Lord your God hardened his spirit and made his heart obstinate, that He might give him into your hand, as He is this day.

Deut 29:4 But to this day the Lord has not given you a heart to understand or eyes to see or ears to hear.

Josh 24:19 But Joshua said to the people, “You are not able to serve the Lord, for He is a holy God. He is a jealous God; He will not forgive your transgressions or your sins. (Note – this is 5 verses after “Choose this day whom you will serve…”)

2 Chr 25:20 But Amaziah would not listen, for it was of God, in order that He might give them into the hand of their enemies, because they had sought the gods of Edom.

Ps 105:25 He turned their hearts to hate His people, to deal craftily with His servants.

Isa 44:28 Who says of Cyrus, ‘He is My shepherd, and he shall fulfill all My purpose’; saying of Jerusalem, ‘She shall be built,’ and of the temple, ‘Your foundation shall be laid.’”

Isa 63:17 O Lord, why do you make us wander from your ways and harden our heart, so that we fear you not? Return for the sake of your servants, the tribes of your heritage.

Prov 21:1 The king’s heart is a stream of water in the hand of the Lord; He turns it wherever He will.

Isa 6:10 Make the heart of this people dull, and their ears heavy, and blind their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed. (Note – this is the 3rd most frequently quoted passage in the NT)

Ezek 36:26-27 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in My statutes and be careful to obey My rules.

Mark 4:11-12 And He said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, so that “they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven.”

John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

John 6:65 And He said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

John 8:43 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word.

John 10:26 But you do not believe because you are not part of my flock.

John 12:39-40 Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said, “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.”

Rom 6:17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed,

Rom 8:7-8 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Rom 9:18 So then He has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills.

Rom 11:8 As it is written, “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear, down to this very day.”

Rev 17:17 For God has put it into their hearts to carry out His purpose by being of one mind and handing over their royal power to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled.

 

[DrJamesAch]

No sir, that is patently false. That is not how God has revealed himself in Scripture.

Well then that's it isn't it! Quote 20 verse totally out of their context and just build a conclusion around all of them so that folks will think because you sited 20 verses that wallah that supports the conclusion without the possibility that each one of those verses has an entirely different meaning than what you gave it.

Let me show you how that works. I will prove that man is saved by works (for analogy sake) and can lose his salvation based upon what you just did trying to prove that God is a determinist.

Revelation 3:5 "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels."

Exodus 32:33 "And the Lord said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book."

Revelation 3:16 " So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth"

Revelation 2:7 "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God."

Revelation 2:26 "And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:"

Psalm 51:11 "Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me."

Revelation 14:12-13, "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus, And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them"

Matthew 24:13 "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."

James 2:24 "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."

Hebrews 10:38 "Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him."

Hebrews 3:6 "But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end."

1 Corinthians 15:2 "By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain."

Matthew 6:15 "But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

Hebrews 3:14 " For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;"

2 Peter 2:21 "But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction."

Matthew 10:38 "And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me."

Colossians 1:22-23 "In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Matthew 7:19 "Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire."

Matthew 10:22, "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved"

Romans 11:21-22 "For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off"

1 Corinthians 9:27 "But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway."

Hebrews 10:26 "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins"

Ezekiel 33:18 "When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby."

***********
I could list several more like this. Each one of them can be argued to prove that a believer can lose their salvation, and/or that salvation is by faith plus works. Strung together, with the added presupposition, looks pretty overwhelming that there is a case against eternal security.

This is exactly what Calvinists do with verses that appear to support God being a determinist. Take several verses out of their individual contexts, some of which make no mention of the doctrine they are trying to prove, and build a conclusion around the volume of citations, instead of showing the contexts and THEN explaining each context and how it ties to the whole.

But, I will go verse by verse on each on you listed, and show that NONE of them support that God is a determinist.

 

[The Biblicist]

Well then that's it isn't it! Quote 20 verse totally out of their context and just build a conclusion around all of them so that folks will think because you sited 20 verses that wallah that supports the conclusion without the possibility that each one of those verses has an entirely different meaning than what you gave it.

Let me show you how that works. I will prove that man is saved by works (for analogy sake) and can lose his salvation based upon what you just did trying to prove that God is a determinist.

Revelation 3:5 "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels."

Exodus 32:33 "And the Lord said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book."

Revelation 3:16 " So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth"

Revelation 2:7 "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God."

Revelation 2:26 "And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:"

Psalm 51:11 "Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me."

Revelation 14:12-13, "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus, And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them"

Matthew 24:13 "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."

James 2:24 "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."

Hebrews 10:38 "Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him."

Hebrews 3:6 "But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end."

1 Corinthians 15:2 "By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain."

Matthew 6:15 "But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

Hebrews 3:14 " For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;"

2 Peter 2:21 "But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction."

Matthew 10:38 "And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me."

Colossians 1:22-23 "In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Matthew 7:19 "Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire."

Matthew 10:22, "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved"

Romans 11:21-22 "For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off"

1 Corinthians 9:27 "But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway."

Hebrews 10:26 "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins"

Ezekiel 33:18 "When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby."

***********
I could list several more like this. Each one of them can be argued to prove that a believer can lose their salvation, and/or that salvation is by faith plus works. Strung together, with the added presupposition, looks pretty overwhelming that there is a case against eternal security.

This is exactly what Calvinists do with verses that appear to support God being a determinist. Take several verses out of their individual contexts, some of which make no mention of the doctrine they are trying to prove, and build a conclusion around the volume of citations, instead of showing the contexts and THEN explaining each context and how it ties to the whole.

But, I will go verse by verse on each on you listed, and show that NONE of them support that God is a determinist.

Granted, proof texting must be confirmed by immediate and overall context. However, you have not demonstrated he jerked any text out of context. All you have demonstrated is your own ability to jerk these texts out of context with a full confession that you did so intentionally.:BangHead:

 

[Van]

Van

It is not...WHAT ....he did foreknow......

it is WHOM He did foreknow.....

II. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions;[4] yet has He not decreed anything because He foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.

Calvinists shuck and jive using misdirection.

To repeat the question: Does the assertion that God did not decreed anything because He foresaw it as future mean the future is not completely fixed?

It is a simple question and not one Calvinist is willing to actually answer it. Go figure.

 

[webdog]

Granted, proof texting must be confirmed by immediate and overall context. However, you have not demonstrated he jerked any text out of context. All you have demonstrated is your own ability to jerk these texts out of context with a full confession that you did so intentionally.:BangHead:

So Luke does it and you remain silent. Selective gleaning of truth.

 

[Van]

One Calvinist view is simply that God decreed the future, and because He decreed it, He foreknew it. So the WCF point concerns sequence, God's exhaustive knowledge of the future requires by logical necessity that God first decreed that future.

If this interpretation (from a Reformed Theology Website) is correct, then this WCF point does fix the problem of God decreeing each and every sin, thus making God the author of sin.

No wonder I hear crickets rather than Calvinists.

 

[The Biblicist]

So Luke does it and you remain silent. Selective gleaning of truth.

You missed the point! Ach ADMITS he is doing it but does not prove that Luke actually did it but only asserts he did it. Note that you are no better than Ach as you do the very same thing "Luke does it" and yet offer no evidence that is so!

 

[webdog]

You missed the point! Ach ADMITS he is doing it but does not prove that Luke actually did it but only asserts he did it. Note that you are no better than Ach as you do the very same thing "Luke does it" and yet offer no evidence that is so!

I don't respond to anyone posting long lists of single verses. Its pointless.

 

[The Biblicist]

I don't respond to anyone posting long lists of single verses. Its pointless.

Ok, but don't accuse them of jerking texts out of context if you are not prepared to prove it! ACH admitted it and so there was no burden to prove he did. However, neither you or Ach have proved Luke jerked texts out of context but you went ahead and asserted it anyway - empty unproven assertion. He is innocent till proven guilty!

 

[Van]

Sovereign over trivial events, or so-called chance events

1 Kgs 22:23, 34, “The Lord has decreed disaster for you [Ahab]. . . . But someone drew his bow at random and hit the king of Israel between the sections of his armor.”

Prov 16:33, “The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord.”

Matt 10:29, “Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father.”

Here is a typical effort from Calvinists to claim Calvinism is supported from scripture. What these verses show is God can and does intervene in the circumstances occurring as He allows, and altering the outcome to conform to an outcome He has determined to bring about.

Thus they prove "A" and then Calvinism claims they prove "B."

1) God took the random arrow shot of a person, and caused the arrow to fly to the place that fulfilled God's purpose. Had God not intervened, the arrow may not have hit anyone, let alone the King, and let alone between his armor.

2) When lots are cast, either God causes the outcome or He allows the outcome, thus every outcome is "from the Lord." This verse in no way says does not ever allow a chance event.

3) In a similar fashion, each and every event that occurs in His creation, He either causes or allows. Thus a sparrow cannot fall to earth unless God allows it to occur.

Bottom line, these verses illustrate how God rules over His creation, but do not teach exhaustive determinism.

 

[The Biblicist]

Here is a typical effort from Calvinists to claim Calvinism is supported from scripture. What these verses show is God can and does intervene in the circumstances occurring as He allows, and altering the outcome to conform to an outcome He has determined to bring about.

Thus they prove "A" and then Calvinism claims they prove "B."

1) God took the random arrow shot of a person, and caused the arrow to fly to the place that fulfilled God's purpose. Had God not intervened, the arrow may not have hit anyone, let alone the King, and let alone between his armor.

2) When lots are cast, either God causes the outcome or He allows the outcome, thus every outcome is "from the Lord." This verse in no way says does not ever allow a chance event.

3) In a similar fashion, each and every event that occurs in His creation, He either causes or allows. Thus a sparrow cannot fall to earth unless God allows it to occur.

Bottom line, these verses illustrate how God rules over His creation, but do not teach exhaustive determinism.

So you are admitting that God can decree all things by permission (evil) or good pleasure?

 

[SovereignMercy]

My problem with Ache and his friends is that I believe them to suppress the truth in unrighteousness like the text below states. It is the most vile form of ungodliness I know. Free-willism makes God into some kind of helpless spectator, Jesus an impotent beggar, and the Holy Spirit as a mere respondent to the whim of fallen mankind. It's the exact opposite of what the Bible says about our omnipotence God. He is the Potter and we are the clay. He is the Author and Finisher of our faith.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

 

[webdog]

Yet another arrogant cal stating only cal's are saved.

 

[Revmitchell]

Yet another arrogant cal stating only cal's are saved.

Yep...............................

 

[webdog]

Ok, but don't accuse them of jerking texts out of context if you are not prepared to prove it! ACH admitted it and so there was no burden to prove he did. However, neither you or Ach have proved Luke jerked texts out of context but you went ahead and asserted it anyway - empty unproven assertion. He is innocent till proven guilty!

Just because I don't doesn't mean I can't. I have better things to do with my time than to apply the proper hermeneutic to two dozen verses.

 

[The Biblicist]

Just because I don't doesn't mean I can't. I have better things to do with my time than to apply the proper hermeneutic to two dozen verses.

Ok, but we walk to the beat of different drummers because I don't make assertions that I don't at least attempt to demonstrate the truth of what I assert. If this forum just turned into assertions it would prove nothing and be a waste of time to read or engage in.

 

[Monster]

My problem with Ache and his friends is that I believe them to suppress the truth in unrighteousness like the text below states. It is the most vile form of ungodliness I know. Free-willism makes God into some kind of helpless spectator, Jesus an impotent beggar, and the Holy Spirit as a mere respondent to the whim of fallen mankind. It's the exact opposite of what the Bible says about our omnipotence God. He is the Potter and we are the clay. He is the Author and Finisher of our faith.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

First paragraph; that's NOT what they say. It's what you seem to infer. I've stayed out and away from the tail-chasing debates. It's bearing little fruit as far as I can tell. That personal stance doesn't make me better or superior (possibly a wimp, though, according to a few predictable characters here), it's just not worth engaging when the other side or either side is screaming too loud and too often to hear.

The opposite of your poor description would be something like... "5-pointers can only understand/comprehend a God that resides in an easily/clearly defined box of humanistic theology." Which too, is limited inference and incorrect understanding.

So I'll retreat once more to my Pollyanna view that "GOD is bigger". He's bigger than free will and dispensationlism and He's bigger than election and whatever number of points Cals would settle on.

 

[The Biblicist]

First paragraph; that's NOT what they say. It's what you seem to infer. I've stayed out and away from the tail-chasing debates. It's bearing little fruit as far as I can tell. That personal stance doesn't make me better or superior (possibly a wimp, though, according to a few predictable characters here), it's just not worth engaging when the other side or either side is screaming too loud and too often to hear.

The opposite of your poor description would be something like... "5-pointers can only understand/comprehend a God that resides in an easily/clearly defined box of humanistic theology." Which too, is limited inference and incorrect understanding.

So I'll retreat once more to my Pollyanna view that "GOD is bigger". He's bigger than free will and dispensationlism and He's bigger than election and whatever number of points Cals would settle on.

It would be nice to get back to debating substance and leave all this personal nit picking alone. I may not agree with many but I can say I enjoy the debates because they challenge me to think and dig and formalize my position. However, that only works when we are dealing directly with Scriptures and positions rather than persons.