Free Will Questions

I used to think we could "not sin" on our own steam. I hope God is merciful when He exposes this error to you. </font>[/QUOTE]Do you mean to tell me that:

You cannot stop yourself from murdering your wife?
You cannot stop having sex with those of your own gender?
You cannot stop stealing?
You cannot stop defrauding
You cannot stop yourself from total depravity?
You cannot stop yourself from exceeding the speed limit while driving?
You cannot stop yourself from lying?
You cannot stop yourself from beating your children for no reason?
You cannot stop yourself from defaming your parents?

Are you confessing to all these sins by saying you cannot stop from doing them?

The ability to not sin is the basis of civilization and civilizations develop laws intended to keep the society from "sinning". Even the most barbaric societies have "laws" except perhaps Sodom and Gomorrah, and maybe even Rome. Why He continues to spare Amsterdam and the U.S. is a little difficult to understand.

Nevertheless, inspite of Calvin, man does have the capability, responsibility and for most, the desire to not sin, regardless of the consequences of sinning. Through the Gifts and attributes that God gave man in the creation, man is not totally depraved. Because man was given the ability to decide, vast numbers of men abide well in societies all over the face of this earth. Only the blind would not see that!

 

And doescivilization ever succeed in keeping society from sinning?

 

Hi yelsew;
Are you comparing the united states to Amsterdam.Please don't tell me that your one of those who believe that the USA is the Mystery Babylon.
Romanbear

 

Hi russel 55;
A quote from you
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And does civilization ever succeed in keeping society from sinning?
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No is my answer.but it is possible to stop sinning other wise Christ wouldn't have told the woman that men were about to stone for adultery to go and sin no more...I admit that I haven't accomplished this my self but I have eliminated some sins from my life simply for my consciences sake.
Romanbear

 

OK, I won't, neither is Amsterdam the harlot Babylon. I think you read something into what I said that I did not put there!

 

And doescivilization ever succeed in keeping society from sinning? </font>[/QUOTE]I never said that society eleminates sin, but that because we have civil societies, we cannot be Totally Depraved!

 

society; even government hopes to teach us that they are established for such purposes as you imagine; but they really are not.

The devil wants us to think we can legislate our problems away, our racism, our prejudice, our hate, our murders, etc. We cannot, Only the Government that is upon His shoulders can and will accomplish this, the earthly government only serves to divert our depraved minds from the true and living God.

Bro. Dallas

 

(see, even my keyboard is depraved)

double post; sorry folks.

society; even government hopes to teach us that they are established for such purposes as you imagine; but they really are not.

The devil wants us to think we can legislate our problems away, our racism, our prejudice, our hate, our murders, etc. We cannot, Only the Government that is upon His shoulders can and will accomplish this, the earthly government only serves to divert our depraved minds from the true and living God.

why else would govt. support the murder of unborn babies?

Bro. Dallas

 

You Credit society wrongly. Society is the environment in which people support each other, and in which evil can exist, as noted by Pauls teachings to the asian, greek, and roman communities. Evil can even become dominant in society where the influence of the Holy Spirit is non existent. I point out that the bible refers to the new church as communities, communities are societies.

 

I point out that the bible refers to the new church as communities, communities are societies.

your point is taken, Yelsew, with this, but don't depend on society to cure the sinfulness of man.

also remember what God told Samuel, that Israel wanted a King because they rejected Him, (God) and not Samuel.

This is why we have govt. because we reject God's rule over us. And govt. is pleased to make itself gods over us.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

Yelsew; it is your contention that election means that we do not have a choice in whether we accept Christ or not.Then according to that the doctrine of election denies all the gospel invitations that appeal to the will of man and ask people to make a choice in whether to respond to Christ's invitation or not. In response to this,we must affirm that the doctrine of election is fully able to accommodate the idea that we have a voluntary choice and we make willing decisions in accepting or rejecting Christ.Our choices are voluntary because they are what we want to do and what we decide to do.Now this does not mean that our choices are absolutely free,because God can work sovereignly through our desires so that He guarantees that our choices come about as He has ordained,but this can still be understood as a real choice because God has created us and He ordains that such a choice is real.In other words,we can say that God causes us to choose Christ voluntarily.The mistaken assumption (made by non-calvinists)underlying this objection is that a choice must be absolutely free(that is,not in any way caused by God)in order for it to be a genuine human choice.

 

To continue this from the previous post;someone might object that if a choice is caused by God,it may appear to us to be voluntary and willed by us,but it is nonetheless not a genuine or real choice,because it is not absolutely free.Once again we(Calvinists)must respond by challenging the assumption that a choice must be absolutely free in order to be genuine or valid.If God makes us in a certain way and then tells us that our voluntary choices are real and genuine choices,then we must agree that they are.And by contrast,we might ask where Scripture ever says that our choices have to be free fron God's influence or control in order to be real or genuine choices. I don't think that you'll find Scripture ever speaking in this way.

 

Hardsheller,

I understand what you mean and agree that such a confession is not recorded. However, I think you’re considering Jesus of Nazareth as a person rather than “the fullness of the Godhead bodily”. So I beg to differ with you on this.

So lets go back to Adam before the transgression. How does he know God? Is his relationship through the Son or not? How does Adam know God “in time” as you say.

For this thread, suffice it to say that “Choice is the essence of Man”.

And again I’ll ask, what constitutes the nature of Adam?

 

Brutus,

That is not my contention, but rather the predominate summary of what the Calvinists on the Forum have been posting. To which, I consistantly state, that ALL mankind must come to the father the same way, through Jesus, and that God has no favorites among the gentiles. All mankind comes to Salvation in the same manner, Belief in Jesus, even on his name. Belief is a human choice and many do not and will not believe, but it is of their own choice and not due to some doctrinal condition called election.

Then the doctrine of election is misrepresented by several of the Calvinists posting on the forum, and you should be addressing your comments to them, and not to me.

I have not once stated that human choice is not influenced by either divine or satanic influences. But I have said repeatedly that neither Divinity nor Satanity enters our brain and throws the switches that result in a decision toward the one doing the enfluencing. Both Good and Evil can be rejected by the human spirit, but because the human spirit is tainted by the propensity to disobedience (original sin) and the Evil one knows that, so the choices the human spirit makes tend to be against the greater authority. Who is the greater authority? God of course. So evil wins our choices much of the time. We do have the freedom, that is free will, to choose either the good or the evil. If we choose Good, Divinity is there to support our decision, If we choose evil, Satanity is there to gloat in the capture, and to make us "feel good" so we will want to continue to make the wrong choices. Once we reject Divinity, Satanity gloats for a while, then leaves us alone because he has captured us and now we are on our own, where we continue on the path to destruction making the wrong choices, because "they feel good".

God, however, continues to knock on our heart's door so long as we are alive in the flesh, or until we completely reject him. If we completely reject Him, he turns us over to our own wickedness. Even so, we know he is there knocking, we hear his knocking, and if we will open the door, no matter our evil state, he will come in and sup with us, and help us clean house. Once we make the decision to let God into our heart, his Spirit stays within us helping us through his influence to make the right choices. But he does not do the deciding for us, hense we have "long time christians" who sin, who must confess our sins and be cleansed from all unrighteousness.

For a choice to be absolutely free, there can be nothing enfluencing the choice, and that condition never exists...ever! Even so, man is not "constrained" by the influences to choose one way or another, but is rather "seduced" as was Eve in the garden, to choose one way or the other. Though seduction seems to be of evil, it can be either good or evil.

What makes human choices free will choices is that man chooses for himself based on the options and their influences. God does not control us, neither does Satan. But they both influence us and our choices are based on the facts and the influences. In the struggle to win the man's soul, there are two influences, Good and Evil. Both are contending for each and every human soul. Therefore every human must make choices that are influenced by both good and evil. But as I said earler, because of the original sin of disobedience of God, all mankind has has the propensity to disobey the greater authority and we know who the greater authority is. So if we make our choices based on the influence of the Greater authority, we are making the right choices, for that Greater Authority protects us with his "mark" on our spirit. The evil one cannot touch us once we are so marked. And that sanctifying mark is Belief in Jesus, the one who justified us. So now in choosing to believe in Jesus, we are justified and sanctified by the very same divine person (influence). ALL men must choose to believe in Jesus, or they condemn themselves by openly rejecting Jesus, or by failing to make a choice. Choosing Jesus defies human nature, the nature that disobeys the greater authority.

 

Hardsheller,

Okay.

Well said. However, keeping things within the context of this thread, I ask; What is included in Soul? Does intelligence (which is what I meant by "choice", not to be confused with animal propensities) reside there? Furthermore, does "soul" change or remain the same as a result of Adam's transgression?

 

Hardsheller,

Thanks for your explanation. I gather you believe that the soul of Adam was changed as a result of the transgression. If so, is the soul, as you define it, truly intrinsic to human nature?

To reiterate, I maintain that nature doesn’t change. If you disagree, I would like to understand more of what you believe nature is.