Free Will Questions

Let's dissect this:


(Mat 22:37 KJV) Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God:

"with all thy heart," What is the heart of man?

"and with all thy soul," What is the Soul of man?

"and with all thy mind" What is the mind of man?

What does "thy" have reference to? Who is the "thy"?

 

Yelsew,

Good questions. I do not have all the answers but here's something I'm thinking about.

The 1st one introduces the subject.
The 2nd one is a picture of of the subject.
The 3rd one is where a choice is made about the subject.

"In the mouth of two and three witnesses shall every word be established".

 

Yelsew and 4study, you guys are funny together, a regular Martin and Lewis.

Who is this passage written too? Believers or non-believers? You must say believers.

and second, is this how man is saved? No, it is how a saved man is to act. We call this sanctification.

Take your act on the road, because it ain't new material here.

 

The issue is not to whom, but what was said. Jesus' words were spoken to a Pharasee or Sadducee, seminary educated persons, who should have some knowledge of humanity.

So are you unskilled in answering simple questions about a dissected scripture?

 

Hi everyone
If we are regenerated before we have faith as Calvinist say and that we don't have free will because we can't hear with out the regeneration.Show me one place in the Bible that says we have to be born again in order to have faith and do it with out your explanation. Let God's word tell us this... in every scripture I read it's the other way around...Faith always comes before regeneration
Romanbear

 

Yelsew, to interpret what is said, you must interpret to who it was written too. Any seminary student would tell you the same. You are the one avoiding the question however.

Is this the means to Justification, or sanctification? Come on, and answer the question.

 

sturgman,

I think you've misunderstand what I was saying. Regardless, I think this new discussion is being taken out of context of this thread. Hardsheller and I were speaking about nature with regard to choice.

 

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Matthew records an eye-witness event in which religious person's were questioning Jesus. They were believers, but believers in what? They may have believed that Jesus was a "good and powerful teacher" but they did not believe that He is the long awaited Messiah.

So the answer to your question is Jesus' words were said to seminary graduates who had beliefs but did not believe in Jesus.

 

The Will of Man

The soul of man is gifted with a will, which is a faculty by which we can either love or hate. This faculty is called a blind faculty. This does not imply that man ignorantly loves or hates, but rather that it is the intellect, not the will, which judges in a given matter. It is the intellect which presents a matter to the will as being either desirable or contemptible, prescribing the course of action to be taken under the current circumstances. The will embraces this practical judgment blindly and acts accordingly. If one judges erroneously, the will functions erroneously as well. At times the intellect suggests something to the will which is enjoyable and advantageous but not according to truth. The will then embraces it as such, even though it is contrary to God’s law.

The will is free and cannot be compelled. This freedom is not arbitrary in nature; that is, one cannot simultaneously will or not will to do something. The holy angels are free in the exercise of their will, and yet they cannot but do the will of God. Rather, this freedom is one of necessary consequence whereby one is motivated and inclined to either embrace or reject something. Even the will of a child cannot be compelled to function in a certain manner. As long as a child does not want to go to school, he will not go there, no matter what one may try. Although he may not go when considering his situation independently, circumstances, promises, or threats can, however, bring about a change of will, thus causing the child to go because he is now willing.

rufus

 

Yelsew, you did it again, answer my question, for once just answer it without making yourself seem like you don't know what we are talking about.

Here is the one question I want you to answer.

Is this scripture speaking of a means to justification, or about sanctification?

 

Sanctification

The one speaking the words, justified all mankind 2000 years ago in a once for all event.

It is human belief in the one who justified us that sanctifies the human!

 

Unless I misunderstand justification, then you are saying there is no need to preach the Gospel, after all, all men being justified, I mean, aren't we wasting our time? If all are justified, this is a stronger argument against evangelization and missionaries being persecuted, and murdered, etc. than even a hyper-Calvinist suggests.

Bro Dallas

 

YOU ABSOLUTELY MISUNDERSTAND JUSTIFICATION! You equate justification of mankind with individual salvation!

Justification is what the Messiah did for us 2000 years ago. Justification is a done deal, but it does not bring eternal life.

Being Justified does not change one from sinner to saint!
Being Justified does not restore man to a sinless state.
Being justified does not remove the consequences of our individual sins.
Justification is what God's Only begotten Son did 'for' all mankind! Not 'to' mankind! And, it did not take any input from man whatsoever, and it is not something man can claim for himself.
It does not eliminate the need for preaching, evangelism, or missionary work. But indeed is the reason for increased preaching, evangelism and missionary work.

Each of us, individually, must come to belief in Jesus in order to have eternal life (salvation). Salvation is a one-on-one encounter between each individual human and Jesus the Christ. It may happen that many experience this encounter simultaneously, but each one who experiences it, experiences it for him/herself. No on can experience belief for another.

Belief (faith) cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. How shall they hear except a messenger bring the word?

 

O.K., so everyone is saved...right? Justification is made possible by the Cross; not all men enjoy this justification, though.

The Bible says we are justified freely by his grace,

Justification can't be as universal as you claim, though I would accept it in as much as the creation shall be redeemed through the work of Christ on the Cross as is consistent with Romans 8, but in man; who fell through his will (while the creature is made subject to the fallen condition, but not by the will of the creature. Again, Yelsew, we disagree on what justification is.

Yes, Christ made Justification possible by his work of propitiation, but if this is a condition all men are in because of the Cross, then there is no reason to continue to preach the message. Since all are already justified.

Bro. Dallas

 

What is that theory of moral liberty, styled “Liberty of Indifference,”“Self–determining Power of the Will,”“Power of Contrary Choice,”“Liberty of Contingency,” etc., held by Arminians and others?

The true theory of moral certainty, on the other hand, is that the soul is a unit; that the will is not self–determined, but that man, when he wills, is self–determined; and that his volition is certainly determined by his own internal, rational, moral, emotional state at the time, viewed as a whole.

In opposition to the former theory, and in favor of the latter, we argue—

1st. That the character of the agent does certainly determine the character of his free acts, and that the certainty of an act is not inconsistent with the liberty of the agent in his act.

2nd. The Christian doctrines of divine foreknowledge, foreordination, providence, and regeneration. They all show that the volitions of men are neither uncertain nor indeterminate.

3rd. We agree with the advocates of the opposite theory in maintaining that in every free act we are conscious that we had power to perform it, or not to perform it, as we chose. “But we maintain that we are none the less conscious that this intimate conviction that we had power not to perform an act is conditional. That is, we are conscious that the act might have been otherwise, had other views or feelings been present to our minds, or been allowed their due weight. A man cannot prefer against his preference, or choose against his choice. A man may have one preference at one time, and another at another. He may have various conflicting feelings or principles in action at the same time, but he cannot have coexisting opposite preferences.”

4th. The theory of the self–determining power of the will, regards the will, or the mere faculty of volition, as isolated from the other faculties of the soul, as an independent agent within an agent. Now, the soul is a unit. Consciousness and Scripture alike teach us that the man is the free, responsible agent. By this dissociation of the volitional faculty from the moral dispositions and desires, the volitions can have no moral character. By its dissociation from the reason, the volitions can have no rational character. If they are not determined by the inward state of the man himself; they must be fortuitous, and beyond his control. He cannot be free if his will is independent alike of his head and his heart, and he ought not to be held responsible.

May I refer my good brothers and sisters to Romans 3, Ephesians 2, I Corinthians 2, Romans 8, etc.

rufus

 

That's why, IMO, the term "free will" is meaningless.

By the way, IMO, man can have coexisting opposite preferences, but not from a moral perspective. I can want to eat and want to diet (not eat) at the same time, but the motive for both - my "moral will" - is the same. It is self-centered.

 

Rufus,

You are listing your beliefs then placing some bible chapters that say nothing to support your claims.

You listed: Romans 3, Ephesians 2, I Corinthians 2, Romans 8

Nothing in these verses listed speak of man's inability to respond to the call of the gospel. Nothing.

What do these passages say?

1. It speaks of man's inability to seek God. We agree, which is why God has instituted the means of the gospel which continues the work Christ started which was "to seek and to save that which is lost." (NOT seek and to save that which is elect)

2. It speaks of man's inablility to be righteous. We agree, man cannot live up to the holiness that God demands, which is why we rejoice in Grace. Jesus is our righteousness.

3. It speaks of man's inability to understand. We agree, the Spirit must reveal truth to our hearts, so that we can see and know what it is that we are "considering the cost" to follow. The Spirit working through the gospel helps us to understand and respond.

Once someone has faith in Christ, the Spirit imparts more and more understanding as we grow in Him.

It speaks of the Spirit's work needed to interpret or reveal truth, which we all agree with. But that in no way necessates that the Spirit only does this work for the a few of the "elect" and that it must always be "effectual" as your system claims.

4. It speaks of being dead and being made alive in Christ. We agree. Calvinism assumes that being dead to something must mean that one couldn't respond to the call of the Spirit through the gospel, but it never says that. The bible uses the word dead in other ways that doesn't mean Total Inability. For examle, the bible says that once we are in Christ we are dead to our sin. Does that mean we are unable to sin again. I WISH! The word "dead" is not enough to support a theological premise of Total Inability. As to God making us alive. We also agree. What are means by which this is accomplished? Faith in Christ, which comes by the gospel.

5. It says we cannot submit ourselves to God's Law. We agree. Which is why we rejoice in Grace.

6. It says we, in the flesh, cannot please God. We agree, without faith it's impossible to please God. Those who act in the flesh will not ever please God.

Once again these passages never say what you claim that they say. They never say mankind are unable to respond to the gospel call! With one exception, hardened Israel was "blinded" and "deafened" by God so that they could not "understand" or "turn and be forgiven." This teaching seems redundant at best if all man is "Hardened" from the Fall as Calvinism teaches.

With Respect,
Bill

 

I don't know who has placed a numerical limit on the number who are the elect, other than God, what man can do such things?

Bro. Dallas

 

JUSTIFICATION HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SALVATION! Justification is what Jesus' shed blood does to the sins of mankind's account. INDIVIDUAL BELIEF IN JESUS remains the requirement for Salvation.

Yes, While God's grace prevails, He sent his son to die on the cross to pay the penalty for sin which is death. Thus all mankind is justified by the death of the Holy Son of God. A gift of God to mankind, all mankind. Justification is not salvation? If one dies without confessing Jesus as Saviour, one dies in his sins because he failed to believe in Jesus, not because he wasn't justified. The penalty for the sins of all are atoned for by the death of the one, thus justifying all.

Then stick with the universally accepted definition #4 of Justification (below) and you cannot go wrong.

JUSTIFICATION IS NOT SAVATION! Justification is not credited in Jesus's words as "Giving Life" to man. The average man does not know that he is already Justified! In fact like you, the average Christian cannot explain "justification". Christ's death on the cross is described as an act of propitiation which is appeasement. What needs to be appeased? God's Justice which would be an outpouring of his Wrath upon his creation. The blood atonement that Jesus offered on the altar of the cross did in fact appease God's justice. All of this is divine work performed by divine deity. The Christ's Atonement that Justified us, did not bring with it salvation. Salvation is through belief in Jesus.

Faith cometh by hearing.... If justification = salvation as you believe, why is it necessary to hear and believe? It is necessary to hear and believe because justification does not bring salvation anywhere in the bible. Faith brings salvation, and faith cometh by hearing. The object of such faith must be Jesus, the scriptures say so! If you do not come to faith in Jesus, the justification you already have is of no value to you because you condemn yourself by your own unbelief. Jesus said so! John 3:18. Keep in mind that Jesus said this in the same dissertation where he said, "whosoever believeth on him should not perish but have eternal life." Believing is something that man is capable of doing on his own, using his own free will. If that were not true, man could not choose to sin either! Contrary to what you believe, Free Will has no boundaries. That is, it cannot be used for one purpose without being able to be used for all other purposes. It is not constrained by sin!

If you die, and your name is found in the Lamb's book of life, the penalty of sins is no longer charged against you because Jesus paid the penalty. However if you die an unbeliever, and your name is not found in the Lamb's book of life, it matters not that the penalty for sin is paid, because you will experience the second death.

Here's some help for your understanding:

 

This confirms the question I asked of you...are all men justified?

Above in the other one your definition says 'humankind' it does not say all men are justified. But human kind.

But I thought you said salvation is by faith, and justification was provided to all men on the Cross??


I still do not believe all men are "declared innocent or guiltless" because of the death of Christ, except the elect.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas