free will vs. election???????

[awaken]

I have read many threads on free will vs. election on this board. I did not realize how many Baptist really believe that only certain ones are chosen and others are rejected, because of what ground? Is it their sin? Is it that God shows favoritism?

I thought we were all sinners? I thought Christ died for all sinners? I thought God called all to repentance? I would like to hear from some of those that believe this. Be elementary with me because I have never discussed or searched this out or saw a need to. (Please give only milk concerning this subject...lol)

First question I have is where does it say Christ only died for a few?

 

[Iconoclast]

awaken

I have read many threads on free will vs. election on this board. I did not realize how many Baptist really believe that only certain ones are chosen and others are rejected, because of what ground?

Awaken.....election is a biblical teaching that is a good study to undertake.You will see in it all of God's Holy attributes manifest..the goodness and severity.

I thought we were all sinners?

We are all sinners,condemned and perishing until and unless God in mercy intervenes. It is called mercy or loving kindness because it is God's loyal covenant love.

I thought Christ died for all sinners?

This is a mistaken and anti biblical idea taught in many places today.No where does the bible teach that. If Christ died for all sinners,all would be saved ...as salvation is of the Lord.
Jesus died for everyone who believes, Jn 3:16 every believing one....
All The Father has Given Jn 6:37....Hebrews 2:16 the seed of Abraham

no more no less.....behold I and the children that God hath given me
hebrews2
13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

I thought God called all to repentance?

God hath commanded all men everywhere to repent.All men are responsible before God to keep the 10 commandments perfectly.....

I would like to hear from some of those that believe this

.

Be elementary with me because I have never discussed or searched this out or saw a need to. (Please give only milk concerning this subject...lol)

Awaken...this a great study and topic to be searched out.God in love rescues His people. God in mercy has provided the one and only means of safety and protection for all men everywhere ...In His Son. The Love of God is only IN CHRIST...to be apart from christ is to be apart from God's love,and instead under His Divine wrath.
The gospel goes out to All men everywhere in the world. he is the only saviour, there is no other. that is why scripture says...he is the saviour of all men. especially those that believe.
there is no other saviour, No other name given..... If anyone is saved,they are saved by Him.
This needs to be kept in mind;
14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Awaken....any question is a GOOD question...there is no foolish question with this. take your time and ask any question on any verse:thumbsup:

First question I have is where does it say Christ only died for a few?

Jesus died for a multitude of sinners.....more than the sand of the sea, more than the stars in heaven...that is hardly a few

Is it that God shows favoritism?

No...God is no respector of persons...all are guilty...God has mercy on Who he wills to have mercy on...For his holy and wise purpose.

Is it their sin?

No...all sinned in Adam...All are guilty and vile.

here from the 1689 confession of faith;
Chapter 3: Of God's Decree
1._____ God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.
( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5 )

2._____ Although God knoweth whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions, yet hath he not decreed anything, because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.
( Acts 15:18; Romans 9:11, 13, 16, 18 )

3._____ By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.
( 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4 )

4.______These angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.
( 2 Timothy 2:19; John 13:18 )

5._____ Those of mankind that are predestinated to life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory, out of his mere free grace and love, without any other thing in the creature as a condition or cause moving him thereunto.
( Ephesians 1:4, 9, 11; Romans 8:30; 2 Timothy 1:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:9; Romans 9:13, 16; Ephesians 2:5, 12 )

6._____ As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so he hath, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto; wherefore they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ, by his Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power through faith unto salvation; neither are any other redeemed by Christ, or effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.
( 1 Peter 1:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 5:9, 10; Romans 8:30; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Peter 1:5; John 10:26; John 17:9; John 6:64 )

7._____ The doctrine of the high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, that men attending the will of God revealed in his Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election; so shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God, and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the gospel.
( 1 Thessalonians 1:4, 5; 2 Peter 1:10; Ephesians 1:6; Romans 11:33; Romans 11:5, 6, 20; Luke 10:20 )

 

[HisWitness]

I have read many threads on free will vs. election on this board. I did not realize how many Baptist really believe that only certain ones are chosen and others are rejected, because of what ground? Is it their sin? Is it that God shows favoritism?

I thought we were all sinners? I thought Christ died for all sinners? I thought God called all to repentance? I would like to hear from some of those that believe this. Be elementary with me because I have never discussed or searched this out or saw a need to. (Please give only milk concerning this subject...lol)

First question I have is where does it say Christ only died for a few?

Christ came to undo what Adam brought forth unto all mankind--men want to try and make adam's transgression more powerful than Crist's Atonement--but they are only fooling themselves with false tradition--but its plainly taught that what was lost in Adam was regained in Christ:godisgood:

 

[Thousand Hills]

Christ came to undo what Adam brought forth unto all mankind--men want to try and make adam's transgression more powerful than Crist's Atonement--but they are only fooling themselves with false tradition--but its plainly taught that what was lost in Adam was regained in Christ:godisgood:

Why was it lost in Adam in the first place?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Awaken...a very good book for this is "the Doctrines of Grace" by James Montgomery Voice & Philip Ryken. You can get it in paperback or on kindle.

 

[Thousand Hills]

Jesus died for a multitude of sinners.....more than the sand of the sea, more than the stars in heaven...that is hardly a few

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[Revmitchell]

awaken


This is a mistaken and anti biblical idea taught in many places today.No where does the bible teach that. If Christ died for all sinners,all would be saved ...as salvation is of the Lord.

So where does scripture say this.

 

[HisWitness]

Why was it lost in Adam in the first place?

through 1 Man's disobedience(Adam) many(ALL) were made sinners

 

[InTheLight]

I have read many threads on free will vs. election on this board. I did not realize how many Baptist really believe that only certain ones are chosen and others are rejected, because of what ground? Is it their sin? Is it that God shows favoritism?

Awaken, I am not a Calvinist but I am trying to understand it. There are inconsistencies and flat out contradictions that I am trying to reconcile. Anyway, to answer your question, there is no reason why God elects some and not others. It's a "mystery*."


* "It's a mystery" is a phrase frequently used when the Calvinist has been backed into a corner and can't logically explain their theology.

 

[Iconoclast]

So where does scripture say this.

Hebrews 10:14

4 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever THEM THAT ARE SANCTIFIEDd.

15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

This is speaking of the results of Our Great High Priest.

he did something.......HE HATH PERFECTED FOREVER.....

for someone.......THEM THAT ARE SANCTIFIED.....

he actually accomplished this....FOR THEM...
And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
I will put my laws into their hearts
This is the covenant that I will make with them
Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us

 

[Iconoclast]

Awaken,

simply put....election

Did you save your self or did God do it?.....ans..God did it.

Did he save you on purpose, or was it an accident?....ans....on purpose.

That is election.....He loved you, because He loved you...

 

[Revmitchell]

Awaken,

simply put....election

Did you save your self or did God do it?.....ans..God did it.

Did he save you on purpose, or was it an accident?....ans....on purpose.

That is election.....He loved you, because He loved you...

Awaken you need to know this is a common fallacy and false dichotomy often espoused by the reformed, or Reformed, or Calvinists, or whatever they are calling themselves today. It's anyone's guess which one.

 

[Iconoclast]

Awaken you need to know this is a common fallacy and false dichotomy often espoused by the reformed, or Reformed, or Calvinists, or whatever they are calling themselves today. It's anyone's guess which one.

Perhaps you could explain how?
maybe you could show why you do not think it is so.:type:

 

[Revmitchell]

Perhaps you could explain how?
maybe you could show why you do not think it is so.:type:

Because there are other options. Scripture does not present such a dichotomy.


Add to that this false dichotomy is in direct contradiction to the idea of synergism that is also often espoused by those who hold to John Calvin's view.

 

[preacher4truth]

Perhaps you could explain how?
maybe you could show why you do not think it is so.:type:

Yes, agreed.

For once (like 'once for all time') I'd like to see some substance instead of the arbitrary accusations from this 'rev' who literally brings nothing objective to the table.

:wavey:

 

[DrJamesAch]

I have read many threads on free will vs. election on this board. I did not realize how many Baptist really believe that only certain ones are chosen and others are rejected, because of what ground? Is it their sin? Is it that God shows favoritism?

I thought we were all sinners? I thought Christ died for all sinners? I thought God called all to repentance? I would like to hear from some of those that believe this. Be elementary with me because I have never discussed or searched this out or saw a need to. (Please give only milk concerning this subject...lol)

First question I have is where does it say Christ only died for a few?

Being elementary is a great place to start. 2 Cor 11:3.

"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ."

Ask yourself this: does having several different "creeds" that have to be interpreted and defined outside of the Bible sound simple??

2 Corinthians 5:14 says, " For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead" So who all is dead here? SOME? "ALL is dead". So if only SOME are elected, then the logical implications would be that only SOME are dead. But if ALL means that ALL are dead, that means that Christ died for ALL not just the elect.

This does not mean that just because Christ died for all, that all will be saved. That's why free will is important because God designed His plan of salvation for men to choose freely: "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely" Rev 22:16.

What Calvinism does is reads man-made philosophy and human reasoning into the plain and obvious meaning of Scripture. When John 11:35 says, "Jesus wept", it means Jesus wept! It doesn't mean that Jesus was symbolically sympathizing with the family of Lazarus and this weeping was symptomatic of internal turmoil brought about by deep seeted and historically held pent up repressed memories. THAT is what Calvinism does, takes the plain meaning of a verse and inserts things it does not say.

When the Bible says, "God so loved the world", you do not dissect it like "well world could mean the soil or only part of those living in Israel because kosmos is often used to describe those relative to a certain location". NO, when the Bible says, God so love the world it means GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD.

Isn't that simple? That is elementary. God never intended for the gospel to be complicated.

One way to prove to yourself how the gospel is applied, is study the sermons that the apostles preached in Acts. The phrase you will hear over and over again is "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ" as in invitation to trust and receive Christ.

If Jesus, Paul, Peter, told their listeners to "COME", why would they appeal to EVERYONE LISTENING, if they KNEW that only some would be saved based on election? If you ever listen to a Calvinist gospel invitation, they are never honest about their Calvinism in their invitation. If they were, they would say, "You have the chance to receive Christ right now, but only if you are elect. Some of you hearing this message are going to hell because you are not elect, so this message really isn't for you". Doesn't that sound absurd? But yet that is exactly the implications of Calvinism. If and when some do give gospel invitations, at that moment they become Free Willers then go back to being Calvinists when the invitation is over.

 

[InTheLight]

Awaken,

Did he save you on purpose, or was it an accident?....ans....on purpose.

That is election.....He loved you, because He loved you...

By necessity, the flip side of this is that God did not love the unelected. He did not love them so he did not elect them. Is that the God of the Bible? I don't think so.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

awaken
Jesus died for a multitude of sinners.....more than the sand of the sea, more than the stars in heaven...that is hardly a few

Awaken.....don't fall for that game.........he is using relative terms for his advantage........I can prove Icon's statement false directly from Scripture see here:
Mat 7:14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Your instinct was correct..............Icon is playing on your inability to distinguish the fallacy of relativity to spot what he is claiming.

Two points are true:
Icon believes that those who find the "narrow-way" are the ONLY people Christ died for..........and, by extension, the only one's God gave a tinker's D_ _n about. Icon believes Christ ONLY died for those who are indeed ultimately saved.
Thus......Icon DOES BELIEVE that Christ only died for a "FEW".

What you mean is obvious to those who do not seek to deceive you.........Icon believes that Christ ONLY died for a "few" and not "all"....he does NOT claim that Christ died for EVERYONE. He is refusing to admit his belief in "limited Atonement" because he knows you won't swallow it. So, he is playing only on the relative definition of "few" or "many".
And those who are saved are indeed "few".....and Icon believes that Christ ONLY died for THEM.


People NEVER become Calvinists unless they can convince you of EVERY point without clearly explaining "Limited Atonement" first. Once they convince you of the other four.........convincing you of Limited Atonement is MUCH easier..........

In order to keep Calvinists honest.......simply DEMAND that they explain "Limited Atonement" FIRST.

 

[DrJamesAch]

Hebrews 10:14

4 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever THEM THAT ARE SANCTIFIEDd.

15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

This is speaking of the results of Our Great High Priest.

he did something.......HE HATH PERFECTED FOREVER.....

for someone.......THEM THAT ARE SANCTIFIED.....

he actually accomplished this....FOR THEM...
And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
I will put my laws into their hearts
This is the covenant that I will make with them
Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us

Another example of Calvinists ripping Hebrews out of context.

What is sanctified? Those who are SET APART, that' s what sanctification means. When do they get set apart? AFTER they are JUSTIFIED. This verse isn't talking about electing someone. Election is not part of the context AT ALL. Sanctification is the process of perfecting one to the image of Christ.

The Calvinist has to INSERT election in here to make it fit their theology.

Secondly, Hebrews is to TRIBULATION JEWS. Go back 2 chapters where Hebrews 10:15-18 was previously quoted based on the same OT passage:

"For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people. Hebrews 8:7-10

This is why Calvinists reject the distinction between the church and Israel, it gives permission to insert their own theology into the text and yank out God's plans for future Israel.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Awaken you need to know this is a common fallacy and false dichotomy often espoused by the reformed, or Reformed, or Calvinists, or whatever they are calling themselves today. It's anyone's guess which one.

:thumbsup:Indeed.......:thumbsup:
What has been expressed to you is a false dichotomy.......The question isn't "Free-will" OR "Election".........it's BOTH. Icon would have you believe that they are contradictory. They are not explicitly contradictory.
Rev. is right.
In a way...the title of your thread is somewhat of a mistake...."free-will" does not exist in contra-distinction to "election".........both are true. A non-Cal would be fair enough and honest enough to submit that to you.........A Calvinist would NOT be willing to demonstrate that distinction, because it wouldn't work in their favour.