Free Will vs. Predestination

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Psalm145 3:
Does God predestinate some people to be saved and go to Heaven and others to be lost and go to Hell so that they have no free choice? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Doesn't appear that you have been following along here pretty well. Everyone does have a free choice and whosoever will may come. The problem for your side is that every free choice of man is made in accordance with his nature and therefore he does not choose God. He does not want to come (Rom 3; 8; Eph 2; etc). If God does not elect out of his sovereign grace and change the will of individuals no one will be saved.

No one can predestinate themselves. In Scripture, the predestining is always done by God without exception.

 

And the problem for your side is that if God predestines some for heaven and they can't resist grace, then He also predestines some for Hell, and there's nothing they can do about it. That warped theology makes God the author of evil--which is why Calvinism is blasphemous.

 

I thank the Lord that He chose me, because I would have never chosen Him.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael Wrenn:
And the problem for your side is that if God predestines some for heaven and they can't resist grace, then He also predestines some for Hell, and there's nothing they can do about it. That warped theology makes God the author of evil--which is why Calvinism is blasphemous.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is a non sequiter. God condemns everyone to hell because everyone is a sinner. There is no exception to that. Out of his sovereign grace, he chooses some to be saved in order to magnify his own grace. The rest he just lets go as they want to go. That is not blasphemous at all (unless you have a strange definition of blasphemy). It is God's way of magnifying his own glory. The people who are not saved do not want to be saved.

He does not force anyone to be saved. He changes their will so that they want to be saved. As for the rest, he simply lets them go the way they want to go. What you refer to is double predestination and I have already rejected that.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pastor Larry:


Doesn't appear that you have been following along here pretty well. Everyone does have a free choice and whosoever will may come. The problem for your side is that every free choice of man is made in accordance with his nature and therefore he does not choose God. He does not want to come (Rom 3; 8; Eph 2; etc). If God does not elect out of his sovereign grace and change the will of individuals no one will be saved.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

For all the Arminian arguments against unconditional election, particular atonement, irresistible grace and preservation of the saints, the core of their misunderstanding always comes back to a basic denial of total depravity. Whether they admit it or not, anti-calvinists adhere closely to a beleif that there is some spark of good in lost sinners, and that sinners want to be saved. Time and again this denial is betrayed by arguments about hypothetical people being "unable to choose", or wanting to be saved "but can't because they are unchosen".

Until one understands that all are depraved, dead in their sins and actual God-haters, the understanding of God's perfect, elective grace will not be understood.

 

Chris,

See my reply under the "General/Free Will/Arminian Baptists" thread.

Larry,

Those of you Calvinists who deny double predestination are contradicting your own theological system because this doctrine is a necessary corollary of Calvin's and your doctrine of election. Calvin held to it, even though he said of it, "It is a horrible decree, I confess."

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Those of you Calvinists who deny double predestination are contradicting your own theological system because this doctrine is a necessary corollary of Calvin's and your doctrine of election. Calvin held to it, even though he said of it, "It is a horrible decree, I confess."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I dont' think you know what Calvinism is about. Double predestination is not a necessary corollary and I don't particularly care what Calvin said about it. I didn't get my beliefs from Calvin; they came from Scripture. If you would spend some time dealing with Scripture, perhaps you too wouldn't care what Calvin said. I don't have anything by him and have read very little of him. I am much more interested in what Scripture says.

Tell me this, if God works all things according to the counsel of his own will, how can you omit salvation from "all things" and still have all things? You have denied the truth of Eph 1:11 among a host of other verses. I use Eph 1.11 becuase it is the first verse that convinced me. I too used to believe differently but there were too many verses that contradicted my former position. I am a "Calvinist" out of necessity. The Scripture affords no other options.

 

Larry,

So, you are a Calvinist, but you don't care what Calvin said--makes a lot of sense.

I haven't denied the "truth" of Eph. 1:11; I simply interpret it differently than you do. And I interpret it in conjunction with other scripture. I'm sure you do, too, but, unlike you, I believe, with traditional Baptists, that it's possible for people to come up with different interpretations of the same scripture passage. Now, of course, somebody's right and somebody's wrong, but, then again, maybe we all have part of the truth and none of us have it all--we all "see through a glass, darkly."

You say the scripture affords no other options than Calvinism; of course that isn't true--that's why there are so many different denominations and so many different beliefs and interpretations even within those denominations. You may say all Arminian Baptists are wrong and all Calvinist Baptists are right, but that doesn't make it the truth. There is just as much scripture to uphold the Arminian view as you believe there is for the Calvinist view. I have already posted some of these.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>So, you are a Calvinist, but you don't care what Calvin said--makes a lot of sense.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This shows your lack of understanding. Calvinism is a name that describes a set of beliefs about biblical teaching. It does not mean that one is a follower of Calvin. It has become "shorthand." We might call it augustinian theology, Pauline theology, Petrine theology, or just plain Jesus theology. It is what the Bible teaches by whatever name we might call it.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I haven't denied the "truth" of Eph. 1:11; I simply interpret it differently than you do.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I notice you have offered no explanation for how "all things" does not mean "all things." There are much stronger passages than this but I have simply thrown only one out. I am quite sure you interpret it differently. The question is, does your interpretation square with Scripture and it seems clear that you cannot truly believe that God works "all things" in accordance with his purpose since you have left salvation (and all the resultant occurrences) out of it.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> ... unlike you, I believe, with traditional Baptists, that it's possible for people to come up with different interpretations of the same scripture passage. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So is it okay if someone says that Jesus is not really God under the name of a different interpretation? On some issues there is legitimate debate and I can allow for different interpretations. However, I do not know how legitimate debate can be about whether or not God is sovereign.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>There is just as much scripture to uphold the Arminian view as you believe there is for the Calvinist view. I have already posted some of these.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I haven't seen you post any Scripture that supports arminianism. You are still left with a God who is not in control but is simply reacting to man's choices.

 

Larry,

It's really diificult to try to have a debate with someone who resorts to patronizing. And your last sentence of the post shows it is you who has a lack of understanding. That is a complete mischaracterization of my view and the Arminian view. BTW, I have posted scripture that supports Arminianism, and so have others; I don't know if you're just ignoring it, or if you're being disingenuous.

I would be willing to bet that I have studied ALL of the doctrines and theological systems of Christianity as much as you have and likely more, so don't patronizingly tell me I have a lack of understanding. The Bible does not teach Calvinist theology; just because the word "predestine" is used, for instance, does not mean that it should or can be defined and interpreted the way Calvinists do.

I was greatly troubled by Calvinism a good many years ago; I thought that if the Bible really taught this despicable theology, I might have to look elsewhere, but then God showed me something that changed my life. It had to do with 1 Peter 2:8. I might tell you about it, if you were a more respectful person.

I have not attacked anyone personally here, only theologies; the same cannot be said of how some have responded to me.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael Wrenn:
I was greatly troubled by Calvinism a good many years ago; I thought that if the Bible really taught this despicable theology, I might have to look elsewhere<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And herein lies the problem: what you call "despicable theology" the Puritans, Calvin, Luther (who was as much a predestinarian as Calvin) Augustine, Paul and Christ have called The Great and Glorious Gospel.

You have presupposed and prejudged that whatever predestination, grace, election, God's sovereignty and God's will mean, they cannot mean that "All the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; He does according to His will in the army of heaven And among the inhabitants of the earth. No one can restrain His hand Or say to Him, 'What have You done?'" Daniel 4:35

This is because you desire to have man free more than you desire to give all glory to the Only Wise God. There can be only one Sovereign, and man isn't him.

Don't bother to pray, Michael, for unless man sovereignly moves, God can do nothing, according to your theology.

Isa 48:1;9-11 "Hear this, O house of Jacob, Who are called by the name of Israel, And have come forth from the wellsprings of Judah; Who swear by the name of the LORD, And make mention of the God of Israel, But not in truth or in righteousness;
9 "For My name’s sake I will defer My anger, And for My praise I will restrain it from you, So that I do not cut you off.
10 Behold, I have refined you, but not as silver; I have tested you in the furnace of affliction.
11 For My own sake, for My own sake, I will do it; For how should My name be profaned? And I will not give My glory to another.

[ September 09, 2001: Message edited by: Chris Temple ]

 

Chris,

You don't know my theology, and what little of it you THINK you know, you continually mischaracterize it.

So, Paul and Jesus were Calvinists--what a hoot!

 

P.S. Maybe we ought to just stop talking to each other.

I'm about ready to do as the Quakers say: Quietly withdraw from the scene of confusion.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>It's really diificult to try to have a debate with someone who resorts to patronizing.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tell me about it. It even gets worse when they refuse to deal with Scripture. You have now posted another one without Scripture and I and others keep saying the same thing over that you are not even addressing. If you do not want to discuss Scripture then I have nothing to say becuase I am not interested in mens' opinions on this matter.

You have not refuted my last sentence. How is God in control if he is dependent on what man may or may not choose? Can you not see the mutual exclusivity of the two options? On predestination, you can say the word doesn't mean what it means, but that does not change the meaning of the word. I can say all day long that a car has four legs and a mane but you and I both know that is not true. A word does not change meanings because you don't like what it means. You have to use it the way the author uses it.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I have posted scripture that supports Arminianism, and so have others; <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Where?? I haven't seen it. I will address any Scripture you want to put out. You won't like it because it will contradict your ideas but I will address it. Just list it.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I would be willing to bet that I have studied ALL of the doctrines and theological systems of Christianity as much as you have and likely more, so don't patronizingly tell me I have a lack of understanding. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

First, how do you know how much I have studied? and second, Who cares? It does not matter how much you study. When you deny certain truths, study becomes meaningless.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The Bible does not teach Calvinist theology;<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

On this you are right. Calvin taught biblical soteriology. You have yet to show that Paul believed anything other than the sovereignty of God. You haven't showed that Christ believed anything different. To attribute Calvinist theology to Scripture is very anachronistic.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I was greatly troubled by Calvinism a good many years ago; I thought that if the Bible really taught this despicable theology, I might have to look elsewhere, but then God showed me something that changed my life. It had to do with 1 Peter 2:8. I might tell you about it, if you were a more respectful person.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What is "respectful person"? You don't like my conclusions and you don't like me refuting yours so I am disrepectful. If I am not mistaken, you previously liked the way I addressed the issue and you thanked me for it (if I remember correctly). I have made no personal attacks. I have simply argued the facts. I would be very curious to hear what God showed you about 1 Peter 2:8 becuase it seems pretty clear about this "despicable theology." Why don't you share it with us? At least it would get us to Scripture.

 

Amen Pastor Larry and Chris, Spurgeon summed it up well: "I have my own private opinion that there is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified, unless we preach what is nowadays called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the Gospel, and nothing else." (From his autobiography)

Calvinism is the gospel. Or as Pastor Larry pointed out, it is Biblical Soteriology. As I believe Chris said, it is the same theology taught by Luther, by Augustine, by Paul, and by Jesus.

Chick

 

Larry,

Don't have much time right now but I'll touch on 1 Peter 2:8. Mnay years ago when I was under the gloom and doom of Calvinism, God showed me something by this verse that removed the dark cloud of Calvinism from over my head. It may not seem earth-shattering now, but for me as a young man of twenty it was.

God showed me that what he predestines are the rules, so to speak--not our actions, not our choices, and he doesn't coerce us. He does strive with and in all men by the Light of Christ and His Spirit, but He forces no one to come to Him, nor does He forceably keep them away.

1 Peter 2:8 means simply this: they were appointed to stumble because of their disobedience. Keep in mind this distinction: They WERE NOT predestined to be disobedient; neither were they predestined to stumble. Rather, it is a case of actions causing consequences. God did not predestine the action, but He determined that a specific consequence would follow a specific action--the law of cause and effect, if you will.

God does not predestine anyone to heaven or hell; he strives with all men. Those who accept his gracious offer of salvation and endure to the end are promised eternal life and are guaranteed it; those who ultimately refuse this offer are guaranteed a life apart from God--that is, hell. So, what is predestined is the result of our actions and choices. Christ died for all humans, offers salvation to all, strives with all, and draws all. It is up to each individual to decide whom he/she will serve--God or Satan.

I have found this confirmed all throughout scripture.

Calvinists will disagree, of course. But I have a scriptural basis for my beliefs, and guidance by the Holy Spirit, and that's good enough for this Baptist.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Calvinism is the gospel. Or as Pastor Larry pointed out, it is Biblical Soteriology. As I believe Chris said, it is the same theology taught by Luther, by Augustine, by Paul, and by Jesus. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I didn't know Calvinists and Lutherans believe exactly the same things! Calvinists believe in infant baptism? I'm not too sure about what Augustine taught. Do you really believe that Calvinists have what Jesus taught all figured out? Do you really believe that Calvinism is perfect Christianity? That would have to be so, if it teaches what Jesus taught.

 

Tuor,

Roman Catholics also believe that about their doctrines, and Churhes of Christ, Easter Orthodox, etc. Denominations exist because of differences among people; I don't believe denominational divisions are sinful per se. I'm glad not everyone is a Roman Catholic, or Lutheran, or Calvinist Baptist; sometimes we can learn most and have our beliefs clarified by dialoguing with those who are wrong.

 

Forgive the spelling errors; it's been a long day.

 

Tuor:

Your reply is full of so much ad hominem, non sequiter and straw man argument, it is difficult to interact with it at all. Nevertheless:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tuor:

I didn't know Calvinists and Lutherans believe exactly the same things! Calvinists believe in infant baptism? I'm not too sure about what Augustine taught. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Who said they did? No Calvinist here did. They both believe in salvation by grace through faith; to equate that with "exactly the same things" is non sequiter. Even the Calvinists here defending Calvinism do not believe all things the same. Must anti-Calvinists apply universal applications to all statements? We are speaking of soteriology, nothing more, nothing less.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Do you really believe that Calvinists have what Jesus taught all figured out? Do you really believe that Calvinism is perfect Christianity? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

"All figured out" and "perfect Christianity" are your ad hominem terms. No one has claimed to have all things figured out or to have perfect theology. Still, we believe systematic Calvinism to be the closest articulation of what the Bible says about salvation by grace. That is why it is a misnomer to call it Calvinism. Calvin may have articulated it, but it was present in Scripture long before Calvin lived.

Conversely, if you believe that Calvinism is wrong, one can accuse you of believing your system is perfect. Is that fair and accurate?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> That would have to be so, if it teaches what Jesus taught.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know any orthodox theologian who believes that the theology they teach is perfect. That claim is reserved for the cults. the believer must study the Scriptures, come to grips with what it teaches, and rearticulate it as best as an imperfect sinner can. All things considered, Calvinism best portrays what the Bible says about the sovereignty of God in salvation, and the responsibility of man.

[ September 10, 2001: Message edited by: Chris Temple ]