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"Free Will" - What is it, and What is it Not?
- Thread starter thatbrian
- Start date
The idea of free will has it origins in greek carnal philosophy,and perhaps the musings of Satan;
isa14;
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
isa14;
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
An ambitious and lofty goal to be sure.
The complete opposite of what Jesus did;
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
Yes, He had his marching orders and He always pointed to The Father as Good.
Great point! I had never thought of that one.
Free will or better communicated human autonomy is not humanity acting independent of God altogether. All our abilities before and after salvation are given to us from God. Paul makes this clear in (I Corinthians 4:7)The disagreement is dependent on whether or not our ability to make decisions both good and bad has been so badly destroyed that the only ability we have left is to oppose God on our own. This is often characterized as the nature of man although scripture does not bear this out. It is simply read into scripture.
Reformed folks suggest that God reaches down and changes our nature and then we respond to the gospel with that changed nature in the only way we can given our now new and spiritual nature. The problem is the changing of this nature is imposed on us (if that were actually true) without any choice available to us as to whether we would want our nature changed. Since we do not get to choose our nature it can rightly be said that we do not get a choice.
There is no conflict with God's divine Sovereignty and man's autonomy as Traditionalists see it. There is scripture after scripture that says God is sovereign (Psalm 115:3). There is also scripture that says man is autonomous (Psalm 115:16). The real debate or question comes down to whether man's nature has been so depraved that man has lost all ability to choose to come to God, after hearing the gospel, on his own or autonomously. (Let's remember human autonomy does not mean man's ability is completely independent of God since God, at birth gave us all that we have)
My God is powerful and remains the ultimate sovereign God even in the midst of human autonomy. The reformed view of God is weak and puny because the autonomy of man diminishes His sovereignty. God is reduced to changing the nature of man so that He can have His way according to the reformed. My God is so wise, powerful, and in control even in the midst of the human autonomy He created.
Reformed folks suggest that God reaches down and changes our nature and then we respond to the gospel with that changed nature in the only way we can given our now new and spiritual nature. The problem is the changing of this nature is imposed on us (if that were actually true) without any choice available to us as to whether we would want our nature changed. Since we do not get to choose our nature it can rightly be said that we do not get a choice.
There is no conflict with God's divine Sovereignty and man's autonomy as Traditionalists see it. There is scripture after scripture that says God is sovereign (Psalm 115:3). There is also scripture that says man is autonomous (Psalm 115:16). The real debate or question comes down to whether man's nature has been so depraved that man has lost all ability to choose to come to God, after hearing the gospel, on his own or autonomously. (Let's remember human autonomy does not mean man's ability is completely independent of God since God, at birth gave us all that we have)
My God is powerful and remains the ultimate sovereign God even in the midst of human autonomy. The reformed view of God is weak and puny because the autonomy of man diminishes His sovereignty. God is reduced to changing the nature of man so that He can have His way according to the reformed. My God is so wise, powerful, and in control even in the midst of the human autonomy He created.
The means and ability to do what one can desire to do and accomplish
God has absolute free will , and we as sinners are restricted to the bondage of our natures, so while we can still do what we desire, there are things no longer able to be desired by us!
"Free Will"... at least in the sense of a 'Libertarian' free will, is that capacity of a sentient being to choose between two or more options or to elect to not make a choice at all, and that that choice is not determined by either internal or external logical necessity.
Which means that only God has real and absolute free will, as there is no external force that can be applied greater than Him to force His will to be made!
No, it means nothing of the sort.
"real" free will is a phrase with no meaning:
"absolute" free will is a phrase with no meaning...
and, inasmuch as you mentioned an "external force" that can be applied, I already cut that off at the pass with my definition wherein I stated it was not determined by:
I get that Calvinists understand the prepositions out, outside, outward, etc......
Apparently, no one taught them in the third grade that prepositions such as in, within, and inside also exist.
Which is why I've headed you off at the pass with my ( I dare-say ingeniously constructed definition):
"Constrained by neither 'internal' nor 'external' logical necessity"
Try again, and thanks for playing.
Well, that's nice. Please explain, as best as you can, the meaning of "internal or external logical necessity." Do you lean toward a Scholastic understanding of necessity and contingency? Certainly not one of the Reformed philosophers.
Do you know anyone in such a state?
Does God Himself have free will then? Do we?No, it means nothing of the sort.
"real" free will is a phrase with no meaning:
"absolute" free will is a phrase with no meaning...
and, inasmuch as you mentioned an "external force" that can be applied, I already cut that off at the pass with my definition wherein I stated it was not determined by:
I get that Calvinists understand the prepositions out, outside, outward, etc......
Apparently, no one taught them in the third grade that prepositions such as in, within, and inside also exist.
Which is why I've headed you off at the pass with my ( I dare-say ingeniously constructed definition):
"Constrained by neither 'internal' nor 'external' logical necessity"
Try again, and thanks for playing.
I believe all persons generally are possessed of that ability.
You, for one.
Myself etc.
And just why do you believe that men have the ability to choose to the contrary?
Freedom of the will is like all freedoms. It is constrained under the authority of the law.
The Scriptures state, “The natural man....”. Therefore, freedom of the will is conformed to nature of the natural man. It cannot freely choose outside of the nature, and conforms all choices made to that nature.
Because believers have both the will of the flesh and the will of the spirit, believers are able to exercise true freedom of will choice.
Freedom of the will is not freedom from the will. Such constraints of the will are not unshackled in any person.
Does not the Scriptures state, “The love of Christ constrains...”. (2 Corinthians 5)?
The Scriptures state, “The natural man....”. Therefore, freedom of the will is conformed to nature of the natural man. It cannot freely choose outside of the nature, and conforms all choices made to that nature.
Because believers have both the will of the flesh and the will of the spirit, believers are able to exercise true freedom of will choice.
Freedom of the will is not freedom from the will. Such constraints of the will are not unshackled in any person.
Does not the Scriptures state, “The love of Christ constrains...”. (2 Corinthians 5)?