Free Will: What's the point?

I expect them to "feel free" because they are free, according to your definition. But Nomad, even though he says he feels free denies that he actually is free. </font>[/QUOTE]I have a feeling you are disagreeing with me here but I am not sure how ... I think you have rightly spoken here.

I am not sure what you are saying here. It seems like a word is missing or something. Nevertheless, there are some differences in how sovereignty is applied among Calvinists, but in general, we agree about it. A person has freedom because their nature is the only thing that constrains them. That is a part of God's sovereignty.

 

A very narrow definition of man's freedom Larry, because man's nature is subject to change based on what man believes.

A person has freedom because God granted that man should have freedom within the constraints of what God put into man and the environment in which God placed man. That is, all the abilities and capabilities that God's design for man allows. Man is physically constrained to a particular, and narrow environment, and must remain within that environment to live. Even so, man has successfully developed some methods of taking his life support system with him to places where man was not destined to live, but it is for temporary periods of time determined by the amount of life support a man can take with him. If man were to leave his life support system, or the system should fail while man is where he was not intended to be, man likewise fails, not his spirit but his flesh. Man's spirit is impervious to his physical environment.

Man's spirit is temporarily constrained by its attachment to flesh, and must operate within the confines of natural life while attached to the flesh. So man's spirit can go where man's body can go, and man's body can go where the spirit leads is within the body's limitations which are subject to environmental considerations. Once the flesh dies, the spirit then is released from the flesh and depending on the faith condition of the spirit is goes one of two places, either to life eternal with the object of faith, or to judgement and being cast into the lake of fire. That is what scriptures reveal.

Therefore, while living this natural life, man has freedom and free will to operate within the constraints of the environment in which God placed his created man. Man can, that is, man has the ability to, choose to be good or evil within those constraints, but because of sin inherited from Adam and Eve, his natural tendency is to evil. A tendancy that can only be overcome by a change in belief. That is why Jesus told Nicodemus, "whosoever believeth in him" will be saved; and, "Whoever believes is not judged, but whoever does not believe is judged by their own unbelief". Then Jesus told us he takes upon himself the sins of the world, and he willingly died on the cross in our stead, thus removing the penalty of sin from us. Yet because we do not believe, we continue in sin. It is only when we truly believe in Jesus, that we have the power to overcome the grip that sin has on our lives, and we can repent from sinning and refuse to continue therein. With sins atoned for, we are no longer bound by them except in our individual belief system. So, change your beliefs from man and man's desires to God and God's desires and you change your behavior! WITHOUT GOD? ABSOLUTELY NOT! However, change, both man wrought and God wrought, is within man and not in God for God changes not! Therefore Man can and does change in accordance with his will and based upon what and in whom man believes.

 

Is there an example of man being given the ability to choose "freely"?.

either inside or outside of Gods preplanned sovereign will for his creation?


Me2

 

ADAM, JUDAS, Both thieves at the crucifixion, Every person when they choose to accept or reject Christ.

 

just-want-peace, you are confusing a legitimate offer, with the free ability to choose between right and wrong.

Everyone is free to choose. However, one will only choose what his nature wants. For a lost person, he will always choose against Christ.

 

Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, BUT BY REASON of him who hath subjected [the same] in hope,

God is responsible. He Planned it.

Adam Had To Fall
Judas Had to Betray

Next....

Me2

 

This is something I think you need to expound upon. Especially in light of all the good that is done toward mankind by people who are not born again Christians.

Of course one needs to understand the meaning of "good". So you need to explain your definition of "Good" too!

Keep in mind what God said about His creation, and "who" just happens to "mysteriously appear" in the Garden.

If true, there is no hope for mankind! Because "decision making" is what believing is all about. Believing is what Jesus demands of us. Believing is not something that comes from outside of man, it comes from within one's inner self, where one's "nature" resides. If an unsaved one will "always choose against the Christ", how does even one person get "born again"?

Ya need to rethink your position here Daniel David.

 

If Salvation were simply a proposition of being confronted with a block of information, thinking about that information, and making an intellectual decision for or against that information then I would believe in Free Will.

BUT IT AIN'T!

Salvation is a God Initiated, God Powered, Unexpected and Overwhelming Event not based on the choice and timing of man but the Choice and timing of God.

Examples: Saul on the Road to Damascus. The Philippian Jailer. The Ethiopian Eunich.

When the Event Occurs in your life, Belief is the outcome. It's as simple as that.

 

No it isn't. The only thing that changes his nature is regeneration. There are some very basic ideas that you keep missing. You are coming to wrong conclusions because you use ideas wrongly. That is unfortunate.

 

That's not the way Jesus says it! "Whosoever believeth in Him Shall have everlasting life". Believe first then salvation comes!

The events you describe are conversion events that resulted in Believer, and Believers receive Salvation.

 

No it isn't. The only thing that changes his nature is regeneration. There are some very basic ideas that you keep missing. You are coming to wrong conclusions because you use ideas wrongly. That is unfortunate. </font>[/QUOTE]Take me through it step by step, Larry. Start with a human who is "totally depraved". Use only the scriptures to describe the process. From beginning, a new infant to the final biblically described event relating to man.

 

That's not the way Jesus says it! "Whosoever believeth in Him Shall have everlasting life". Believe first then salvation comes!

The events you describe are conversion events that resulted in Believer, and Believers receive Salvation. </font>[/QUOTE]

There was a forest but some never see it because of the trees.

 

That's not the way Jesus says it! "Whosoever believeth in Him Shall have everlasting life". Believe first then salvation comes!

The events you describe are conversion events that resulted in Believer, and Believers receive Salvation. </font>[/QUOTE]According to your view of Salvation the Apostle Paul (Saul) could have refused God on the Road to Damascus.

 

Been there, done this so many times it is unbelievable. If you were really interested, you would have listened then. If you want to refresh your memory, just go through the old threads. All the info is there. You have simply rejected the word of God on this issue.

 

Hardsheller,

Of the BILLIONS of humans that have lived, there is ONE (1) recorded event like that of PAUL. Jesus raised more than ONE (1) human from the dead, and that is more significant!

You cannot use Paul's conversion as an example of anything common to man!

 

Been there, done this so many times it is unbelievable. If you were really interested, you would have listened then. If you want to refresh your memory, just go through the old threads. All the info is there. You have simply rejected the word of God on this issue. </font>[/QUOTE]I just thought Larry that since you are so adamant about the subject, that you would like to make it very clear what the steps to salvation of man are in a bulletized list in the order that they "Must" occur. But apparently you don't know.

Maybe a Jack Chick version!

 

I know very well and you know that I know. I have made it clear on numerous occasions. If you were really interested, you could have learned it back then or you could go and look it up. The truth appears to be that you are not really interested in learning anything.

 

Of the BILLIONS of humans that have lived, there is ONE (1) recorded event like that of PAUL. Jesus raised more than ONE (1) human from the dead, and that is more significant!

You cannot use Paul's conversion as an example of anything common to man! </font>[/QUOTE]OH? He didn't participate in the experience? He wasn't really a man?

Either all men have a free will or none have one.

 

Of the BILLIONS of humans that have lived, there is ONE (1) recorded event like that of PAUL. Jesus raised more than ONE (1) human from the dead, and that is more significant!

You cannot use Paul's conversion as an example of anything common to man! </font>[/QUOTE]OH? He didn't participate in the experience? He wasn't really a man?

Either all men have a free will or none have one. </font>[/QUOTE]Were you recruited in a dramatic manner such as what Saul experienced on the road to damascus? God did something out of the ordinary for Paul. Therefore his conversion was quite uncommon, not the norm for humankind!

Let's talk of Leonard Jones's conversion. He was an ordinary guy, quite common in appearance, a high school graduate barely eaking out a livable wage. He worked alongside Little Jimmy Smith, who only a year ago had come to believe in Jesus, and in that year every one noticed the change in Jimmy's demeanor. He was no longer the shy lonely fellow who came to work, did what he had to, because he had a life changing experience with God.... you know the story. The result is that now leonard, like Jimmy had a salvation experience because Jimmy just couldn't keep his mouth shut about what had happened. They both are saved because they believed the Gospel story.

That is quite common among men. Only Paul can give you a testimony of his experience, because Paul is the only one we know of who had such. And that is why you cannot use Paul for an example of the conversion experience. Could Paul have rejected God? Probably! But he didn't, so we will never know.

 

Hello everyone , I thought I would add this here:

Calvinists do not argue about, and do not disagree about, the reality or the psychology of human choice; though Arminians do not altogether see this, and sometimes speak as if determinism involved a doctrine of psychological compulsion. But the Calvinist's denial of ‘free-will’ has nothing to do with the psychology of action. That human choices are spontaneous and not forced, we all know and affirm; it is, indeed, fundamental to the Calvinist's position to do so. It is man’s total inability to save himself, and the sovereignty of Divine grace in his salvation, that Calvinists affirm when they deny ‘free-will’, and it is the contrary that Arminians affirm when they maintain ‘free-will.’ The ‘free-will’ in question is ‘free-will’ in relation to God and the things of God. Calvinists do not say that man through sin has ceased to be man (which is the Arminians’ persistent misconception of this meaning), but that man through sin has ceased to be good. He has now no power to please God. Sin affects every aspect of our being: the body, the soul, the mind, the will, and so forth. Sin reaches into every aspect of our lives, finding no shelter of isolated virtue. We are not sinners because we sin; we sin because we are sinners. To be under sin is to be controlled by our sin nature. Sin is a weight or burden that presses downward on the soul. To be dead in sin is to be in a state of moral and spiritual bondage. By nature we are slaves to sin.

When God works in us, the will is changed under the sweet influence of the Spirit of God. Once more it desires and acts, not of compulsion, but of its own desire and spontaneous inclination. One could wish, indeed, that a better term was available for this discussion than the accepted one, necessity, which cannot accurately be used of either man’s will or God’s. Its meaning is too harsh, and foreign to the subject; for it suggests some sort of compulsion, and something that is against one’s will, which is no part of the view under debate. The will, whether it be God’s or man’s, does what it does, good or bad, under no compulsion, but just as it wants or pleases, as if totally free.

Many insist that the Reformed position teaches irresistible grace on the unwilling. Resurrection is not an action of force against will: it is the bringing of new life to the dead.

Hope this helps a little. Sorry for being a little long.

Felix