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Featured Free Will

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by crixus, Dec 11, 2016.

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  1. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    Thank you for your responses! :)

    I believe you have articulated them well. Thanks for the discussion and the liberty I had positing some thoughts.
     
    #41 JonShaff, Dec 14, 2016
  2. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    All I'm saying is if I don't have any choice in what I say then the only person your dealing with is someone who has choice over what I say.

    The puppeteer pulls the strings no matter what the puppet says its the puppeteer who authors what he says.

    Those who insist I have no free have to come to grips that my precise nature is directly authored by God.

    Unless you want to contend that I am another GOD who created myself. No God created me, created all choices chosen. Like the puppet I'm no one at all, nothing there, just a tool.


    I have as much free will as the rocks, the trees , the water ect. And I can stake as much claim to innocence. All choices are forced. They are not even mine.
     
    #42 utilyan, Dec 15, 2016
  3. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    That is the problem, isn't it? If we have no choice then we are like robots just following what ever path has been designed for us, without guilt for the path we take. Or, like you say, we are like puppets being pulled along in this direction or that, at the whim of a puppeteer.

    I agree with you, brother. And I never doubted for a moment that men choose freely - I know I did. If my comments have given you the impression that I believe that God did not create men with the freedom to choose, or if my words appeared to frame Calvinism as denying human free agency, then you have my apologies. That is not what I meant to convey at all. In fact, it is quite the opposite. We are accountable to God because of the responsibility inherent in the freedom to choose.

    My point was only that without the work of the Spirit, men only, but freely, choose a path away from God. But the Spirit works within those men in such a way that they freely choose God. No one, insofar as I can tell, has suggested here than men do not make their choices.
     
    #43 JonC, Dec 15, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2016
  4. HeirofSalvation

    HeirofSalvation Well-Known Member
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    As for Peter....

    It's simple and two words:

    "Messianic Secret".

    We don't suffer from it....
    The fullness of Christ's revelation was given to us.
     
    #44 HeirofSalvation, Dec 18, 2016
  5. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    My children have free will - that is until they meet the Board of Education.
     
    #45 Salty, Dec 18, 2016
  6. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    The revelation is there, but it was for Peter as well. This is evidenced through not only the Old Testament but through Jesus' teachings as well (Peter sat under those teachings we read). It was revealed to Peter not as a new special revelation yo humanity but as something yet understood by Peter. God revealed to Peter the truth of what he had heard as a child in the synagogue, and the truth that Jesus had taught from the start of his ministry.

    It is the same with us We may hear, sometimes once and sometimes for years God's revelation of Christ. But salvation comes when God reveals as truth the gospel we have heard.
     
    #46 JonC, Dec 18, 2016
  7. HeirofSalvation

    HeirofSalvation Well-Known Member
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    Well....that's the point isn't it?

    Peter did not have sufficient information until Christ specially taught him, and the Holy Spirit specially revealed the truth of Jesus to him. Jesus was deliberately ambiguous throughout much of his ministry. Simply knowing and even believing the Old Testament wasn't sufficient for most people. It required Christ specifically revealing himself to Peter and as He said, a particular work of the Holy Spirit was involved in order for Peter to understand.

    Peter's situation is not the same as ours and does not apply. That's the point I'm making.
     
    #47 HeirofSalvation, Dec 19, 2016
  8. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    ....hmm, what kind of point do you make from this?:

    4 in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not dawn upon them.
    6 Seeing it is God, that said, Light shall shine out of darkness, who shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 2 Cor 4

    ...while you're at it, who's stronger? God or the devil?

    Christ could have just as easily said, "Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jonah": 'it is God who shined in your heart'.
     
    #48 kyredneck, Dec 19, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2016
  9. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    No, that's not the point. The information was there before the truth was revealed. I knew the gospel message before God revealed it to me as truth.

    For us, like Peter, it takes the required information of Christ and the work of God in revealing this as truth.
     
    #49 JonC, Dec 19, 2016
  10. HeirofSalvation

    HeirofSalvation Well-Known Member
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    But....not for Peter.
    I'm not the only one here who understands that Christ was habitually cryptic and flat-out hid his identity to a great many or even the majority of people.
    Christ was deliberately ambiguous....Collectively, his teaching along with the Holy Spirit were necessary for Peter to understand who he was......because he hid it during much of his ministry.
    Peter didn't.
    It was clear he didn't....he even resisted Christ's announcement that the Son of Man was to be crucified....long after this occurrence. Peter didn't really understand the gospel until after the Passion event......
    This is not our situation.
    I wouldn't debate that....but your statement was that you couldn't see how that statement by Christ could be understood as anything but Universally applicable to all people.

    It easily could be unique.........the Messianic Secret (no secret anymore to us) is why it doesn't necessarily speak to our situation today.
     
    #50 HeirofSalvation, Dec 19, 2016
  11. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I think that the biggest obstacle is that Jesus seems to insist that what was revealed in Scripture up to that time should have been enough to evidence the reality of God's Kingdom, and that coupled with the signs testifying about Jesus should have been enough to evidence Jesus was the Christ. The second road block is Jesus' teachings to the Disciples up to this point (not His parables, per se, but that Jesus explained those parables specifically to his Disciples before we arrive to the point of Peter's confession).

    I am not sure about your point of Peter resisting Christ's announcement after this event. Like the Old Testament saints who did not see the Promise during their life time, so Peter also (at that point) did not conceive of the Cross. But from that time forward this is what Jesus taught the Disciples (after rebuking Peter for rejecting the message). And yes, still much remained concealed.

    I apologize if my ambiguity has led to a misunderstanding. I do understand how the passage could be understood to mean many things. I understand how the "keys" given to Peter is taken to be this Universal Church. What I do not understand is how someone can read this (along with numerous passages) and yet believe that it is not God who reveals truth to man. And here I do not mean "gives information", as in provides a textbook, but actually reveals truth (gifts faith).
     
    #51 JonC, Dec 20, 2016
  12. HeirofSalvation

    HeirofSalvation Well-Known Member
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    I agree with you that it is not without the Holy Spirit that we are able to believe....I just don't think that particular passage does much to prove it. That's all I was saying. I don't particularly disagree with your conclusions.
     
    #52 HeirofSalvation, Dec 20, 2016
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  13. Samuels

    Samuels Member
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    Romans 6 is not very complicated to me ... but it is to many others!

    These "others" are blind to many Scriptures because of their biases, false beliefs, etc.
    One must have an OPEN heart and mind to receive spiritual Truth.

    Romans 6 says ... CHOOSE to be a slave of obedience ... or ... a slave of sin.
    Please read the chapter to find out the result of both totally opposite paths!
     
    #53 Samuels, Dec 27, 2016
  14. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    You don't seem to say much with true understanding.
    MB
     
    #54 MB, Dec 27, 2016
  15. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    Romans 6 is answering the Rhetorical Question (Probably from a law keeper) Do we Continue in sin so that Grace may abound?

    Why would they be asking that?

    Paul Drops a Bombshell on them in the Last few verses of Chapter 5 and repeats it at the end of Chapter 6...God's Justification is a Free Gift through Faith in Jesus Christ.

    Chapter 6 is the revelation of The New Reality for believers. Paul is not asking them, "Ok, Choose to be a slave to sin or a slave to righteousness."

    No

    He is saying that as unbelievers you WERE Slaves to unrighteousness. NOW as believers who are CRUCIFIED WITH Christ and Buried with HIM, you can now walk in the newness of Life given to you by His Grace. You are NOW a Slave to Righteousness, by His free gift. He is describing the "newness of Life." New desires, Desires to Walk in step with God's Spirit and With what Pleases God. New Focuses, Focusing on Doing all things to Glorify the Lord.

    This is a revelation of the new Birth and the Power we have to Walk out God's righteousness. We are Risen with Christ! Old things are passed away, behold all things are become new! Sin no longer has dominion over you, you are set free!
     
    #55 JonShaff, Dec 27, 2016
  16. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    I was a saint till I disagreed with you. Perhaps your clouding your judgment based on my character rather then content.
     
    #56 utilyan, Dec 27, 2016
  17. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Nope Perhaps in your own sight
    MB
     
    #57 MB, Dec 27, 2016
  18. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Jesus sets thesinner free, and John states that we are not habitual sinners any longer once saved, so how can real Christians be slaves of sin?
     
    #58 Yeshua1, Dec 28, 2016
  19. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Our friend seems to be the one needing that ole open mind/heart of real understanding!
     
    #59 Yeshua1, Dec 28, 2016
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