Free will

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

HP: Per chance that GE has overlooked the last post on this thread, I will post yet again and hope for a response.

One issue that cannot be stressed enough is the issue if in fact mans will is involved in the salvation process, does that indicate salvation by works? I say emphatically it does not, and that it is a total and complete misrepresentation of the facts to lay such a charge upon those that believe the will of man is indeed involved in the salvation process. Any thoughts?

 

[hill]

HP: Per chance that GE has overlooked the last post on this thread, I will post yet again and hope for a response.

One issue that cannot be stressed enough is the issue if in fact mans will is involved in the salvation process, does that indicate salvation by works? I say emphatically it does not, and that it is a total and complete misrepresentation of the facts to lay such a charge upon those that believe the will of man is indeed involved in the salvation process. Any thoughts?

Mans part is to believe in Jesus Christs finished work and everything of substance in mans salvation is Gods work. We add exactly nothing to the equation.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Hill: Mans part is to believe in Jesus Christs finished work and everything of substance in mans salvation is Gods work. We add exactly nothing to the equation.

HP: For a man that says he is not a Calvinist or a Baptist, you have a strange way of establishing it. I have never heard such sentiments expressed by any denomination that indeed was not of the two you claim not to be.

You say we add nothing to the equation, but in the other breath you say that man’s part is to believe. I have always thought nothing meant nothing, but here you say that nothing involves believing. You will have to help me understand your true intent.

 

[hill]

HP: For a man that says he is not a Calvinist or a Baptist, you have a strange way of establishing it. I have never heard such sentiments expressed by any denomination that indeed was not of the two you claim not to be.

You say we add nothing to the equation, but in the other breath you say that man’s part is to believe. I have always thought nothing meant nothing, but here you say that nothing involves believing. You will have to help me understand your true intent.

If man does not believe in Christ's finished work, how then must he be saved?

Further, as to your assertion that water baptism (i.e. being a Baptist) fits into the body of Christ today, I completely disagree. That form of Baptism was for Israel and NOT for the church today. We are automatically Baptised into Christ the moment we accept Christ as our Savior.

 

[hill]

Repent and be Baptised, went out when John's ministry failed to bring Israel into the long promised covenant with her Messiah, culminating with her demand to crucify Him. God sent Paul to the rest of the worlds people with a wholy new and gloriously simple plan. Believe on the lord Jesus Christ and though shall be saved, thy and thy household. Acts 16.31,32

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Hill: If man does not believe in Christ's finished work, how then must he be saved?

HP: We seem to agree in that water baptism is not a condition of salvation, nor was it ever. We as believers are indeed baptized into Christ. It is this ‘baptism into Christ’ we are in need of. That is indeed accomplished, BY FAITH, the moment we receive his salvation through the fulfilling of the conditions God has mandated, and those are to repent and believe.

Repentance did not come in or go out with the ministry of John. The prophets of the OT preached repentance. It is true that John preached repentance but it did not stop there. The first words recorded in the ministry of Christ were what? “Repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!” The apostles, including Paul preached the necessity of repentance. No where does Scripture nullify the mandated condition to repent. Something as obvious as that does not need to be repeated in every instance. It is and has always been clearly understood as a condition of forgiveness and salvation

Even the Jews of the OT knew full well that no sacrifice had any ability to make an atonement for sin apart from the condition of heartfelt repentance. The glorious and simple plan of salvation in this dispensation does not preclude the stated and implied condition of sincere repentance.

 

[BobRyan]

It is absolutely contrary to the indications of Scripture that once enlightened one cannot choose to do otherwise or that it is impossible to sin. I believe that GE is a product of the maelstrom of confusion of Calvinism, that any and all that pursue its tenants will land into, IF one carries out such a system to it’s (il) logical ends.

But wouldn't you agree that very few of them go to GE's extremist positions?

What about Johnathan Edwards or Spurgeon?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BR: But wouldn't you agree that very few of them go to GE's extremist positions?

What about Johnathan Edwards or Spurgeon?

HP: It is not my desire to discuss the views of those not associated with this list, due to the fact we cannot interact with them to ascertain the truth. You tell me why it is that you do not believe they held to the extreme views of say GE, and we will discuss if in fact that was possible or reasonable for them to believe as such.

I have not read a lot of Spurgeon, and it has been so long ago that I did read his sermons, that I will have to let you refresh my mind. I know that Jonathan Edwards was indeed Calvinistic in his views as I have read him extensively I the past. I would have to hunt and peck for specific quotes, but hat is such a well known fact I doubt any would disagree with that assessment.

Again, tell me why you feel these men did not hold such extreme Calvinistic views? I would maintain that the views they did hold to of necessity point directly to the beliefs of GE. The difference is that GE does not seem to be bothered by the illogical and even wicked ends of his views, while other men hold to the same basic notions and try their best to avoid the unavoidable, i.e. the logical ends of their beliefs.

Better yet, why do you not answer the questions I posed to you some time ago that you never bothered to answer concerning some of these very issues concerning your own stated beliefs? I see you as leaning hard to the side of Calvinism. Show me why or where I am wrong in believing such.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

HP: I see you as leaning hard to the side of Calvinism. Show me why or where I am wrong in believing such.

​

HP: I made this comment due to the dead log illustration of man that BR seemed to ascribe to. This seems to me to be a Calvinistic notion, that man lacks abilities to repent. It is straight out of the play book of Augustine. He believed that sin lied in the constitution of the flesh, and not in the will where it belongs. He believed that grace was the granting of abilities, whereas I believe that grace is unmerited favor. The granting of abilities I see as mere justice if God is going to blame man for disobedience.