Free Will

[ShotGunWillie]

"And of moral evil the usual story is in terms of free will (or free will and the goods free will makes possible), that God in conferring free will could not guarantee that we abstain from evil, for to do so would be to limit freedom. But have we free will, And if we have, is it so valuable as to justify all the evil caused by men's morally evil acts, i.e. would it really be a worse totatl state of affairs for us to be rational automata? More basically, is it not the case that complete virtue is compatible with the possession of free will, might not God have very easily so have arranged the world and biased man to virtue that men always freely chose what is right? Clearly theists cannot consistently argue that free will and necessitation to virtue are incompatible, for they represent God himself as possessing a free will and as being incapable of acting immorrally. If this can be the case with God, why can it not be so with all free agents?" H J McCloskey "On Being an Atheist"

 

[Marcia]

McCloskey does not recognize that God did not bias man to immorality. Man chose to disobey and thus corrupted his own nature.

If God had biased man so that men would "always freely choose what is right," as McCloskey puts it, then man would be robotic. And, I would ask McCloskey, what choice is there if man is "biased" to always choose right? That is not choice.

 

[Andy T.]

If God had biased man so that men would "always freely choose what is right," as McCloskey puts it, then man would be robotic. And, I would ask McCloskey, what choice is there if man is "biased" to always choose right? That is not choice.

So I guess we are going to be "robotic" in heaven, correct? By your reasoning we will be, because once we as believers are glorified in the eternal state, our natures will be changed (or "biased") to the point that we will no longer want to choose sin or evil. So are we going to be the dreaded robots in heaven? Or do we need to rethink the oft used strawman argument that non-libertarian free will = robotic?

 

[Salamander]

If man was not given a choice then there would be no rebellion, no disobedience, no need for forgiveness of sins and God would be the one accountable for all His creation's sins and shortcomings.

Failures of calvinism deny these facts and leave the hearer no other choice but to believe something radically different from reality.

Then people spend countless hours debating something that is diametrically opposed to its very devices.:sleep:

 

[Marcia]

So I guess we are going to be "robotic" in heaven, correct? By your reasoning we will be, because once we as believers are glorified in the eternal state, our natures will be changed (or "biased") to the point that we will no longer want to choose sin or evil. So are we going to be the dreaded robots in heaven? Or do we need to rethink the oft used strawman argument that non-libertarian free will = robotic?

I do not see not wanting to sin in heaven as robotic since we want to be there. I also think we do not have the understanding to explain this state in heaven, either, but we can explain some things on earth about man.

 

[Alcott]

Free will? If you know a lawyer who offers that service, give me the name. It's about time I filed one.

 

[saturneptune]

Free will? If you know a lawyer who offers that service, give me the name. It's about time I filed one.

The NYC law firm of Dewey, Chetham, and Howle offers this service. The good thing about their service is they make the will so you do not have to sign your name, but can use an "X." That would be of great benefit to you.

 

[Andy T.]

I do not see not wanting to sin in heaven as robotic since we want to be there. I also think we do not have the understanding to explain this state in heaven, either, but we can explain some things on earth about man.

I'm sure Adam and Eve wanted to be in the Garden too - it was a great place. And God could have not placed any temptation in the Garden, and they wouldn't have been any less free than they were with the temptation.

I agree that we will not be robotic in heaven. What I disagreed with was your presupposition stated above that said if God had always biased man to freely choose right, then man would be robotic. But that is exactly what will happen in heaven - he will change our nature - i.e., bias it - to the point we will not want to sin anymore. And I think the Bible is crystal clear on our state in heaven (Rom 8:29; I Cor. 15; I John 3:2) - that we will be like Christ and conformed to his image.

 

[Marcia]

I'm sure Adam and Eve wanted to be in the Garden too - it was a great place. And God could have not placed any temptation in the Garden, and they wouldn't have been any less free than they were with the temptation.

I agree that we will not be robotic in heaven. What I disagreed with was your presupposition stated above that said if God had always biased man to freely choose right, then man would be robotic. But that is exactly what will happen in heaven - he will change our nature - i.e., bias it - to the point we will not want to sin anymore. And I think the Bible is crystal clear on our state in heaven (Rom 8:29; I Cor. 15; I John 3:2) - that we will be like Christ and conformed to his image.

That process doesn't start in heaven - that process has already started now. Regeneration of the believer and being conformed to the image of Christ starts at the moment of faith. It's already happening. So are you feeling robotic? I doubt it.

 

[Dale-c]

That process doesn't start in heaven - that process has already started now. Regeneration of the believer and being conformed to the image of Christ starts at the moment of faith. It's already happening. So are you feeling robotic? I doubt it.

Marcia, that is our point, we are not felling robotic.
We are not robots.

However, we are only free to act within the confines of our wills.

Why does the natural man not receive the things of God?
He does not because they are foolishness to him.

Without regeneration no man ever desires to truly please God or truly seeks after God.

The unsaved sinner sins because that is his nature.
The Saved sinner is in a process of sanctification so that he is being conformed to the Image of God's Son yet still sins.
The Glorified sinner in heaven with have that process complete and no longer sin at all.


I have used this example before but I will say it again:

If I go to Burger King and order a Whopper, I will not order mustard because I do not like it.
Is there any external restraint keeping me from ordering mustard on my whopper? Not at all. Would they put it on if I did order it? Sure they would.
But I have never once in my life ordered mustard on anything. It was simply not my nature to do so.

 

[Andy T.]

That process doesn't start in heaven - that process has already started now. Regeneration of the believer and being conformed to the image of Christ starts at the moment of faith. It's already happening. So are you feeling robotic? I doubt it.

Of course. But it won't be perfected until after we die and completely fulfilled at the resurrection. And at that point, we will no longer have the desire or even temptation to sin - and it won't be robotic. And neither would it have been robotic if God never allowed Adam to face temptation.

 

[Marcia]

Of course. But it won't be perfected until after we die and completely fulfilled at the resurrection. And at that point, we will no longer have the desire or even temptation to sin - and it won't be robotic. And neither would it have been robotic if God never allowed Adam to face temptation.

Right, it will be perfected then. But I think we will feel the same way about regeneration then as we do now. It won't seem forced just as now it does not seem forced.

 

[Me4Him]

That process doesn't start in heaven - that process has already started now. Regeneration of the believer and being conformed to the image of Christ starts at the moment of faith. It's already happening. So are you feeling robotic? I doubt it.

Have you ever consider that free will was the reason God didn't create robots in the beginning.

Having the will to be free from sin and having the ability is entirely different, as Paul pointed out we can have the will but not the ability,

This is where, and the reason, Grace takes over.

Ro 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

Having lost the "sin nature" (flesh) in heaven the "Will" (soul) to serve God still exit, no robots there either.

Robots don't have a "Heart", neither can "Worship/Love" be "ordained" by "Sovereign will", that can only occur as a free will expression of a heart.

And it's the criteria God uses in choosing who he will save.

 

[Victorious]

If man was not given a choice then there would be no rebellion, no disobedience, no need for forgiveness of sins and God would be the one accountable for all His creation's sins and shortcomings.

Failures of calvinism deny these facts and leave the hearer no other choice but to believe something radically different from reality.

Then people spend countless hours debating something that is diametrically opposed to its very devices.:sleep:

Obviously, man was given a choice between good and evil, not salvation. There is a difference. You can choose to sin but you cannot choose to be born or "born again."

Calvinism is just a name. I fit into this category myself, though I have never completely read "The Institutes." I would prefer to call them the "Doctrines of Grace" as did Jonathan Edwards.

 

[Marcia]

Have you ever consider that free will was the reason God didn't create robots in the beginning.

Having the will to be free from sin and having the ability is entirely different, as Paul pointed out we can have the will but not the ability,

This is where, and the reason, Grace takes over.

Ro 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

Having lost the "sin nature" (flesh) in heaven the "Will" (soul) to serve God still exit, no robots there either.

Robots don't have a "Heart", neither can "Worship/Love" be "ordained" by "Sovereign will", that can only occur as a free will expression of a heart.

And it's the criteria God uses in choosing who he will save.

I am not sure why you say all this. Are you addressing me?

 

[Me4Him]

I am not sure why you say all this. Are you addressing me?

Yes, you said:

I do not see not wanting to sin in heaven as robotic since we want to be there.

"Want" to be there, was the point I addressed.

Only those who "Want to be there", will be there,

Our "Will" to obey God (Faith in Jesus) is the criteria God uses to chose whom he wlll save,

Our "Will" in not "Robotic" (programmed/predestined) by "Sovereign will" either way,

Jesus died for the sins of the whole world that the whole world "MIGHT BE" saved.

Obviously, the "option" of "Might be" can't exist where sovereign will has programmed/predestined the future.

"Foreknowledge", Yes, "programmed/predestined", No.

As I said, "Worship/Love" can only exist if it's a "free will" expression of the person's heart,

Like God, we're free to love whomever we chose, that's the only way love can exit.

Ro 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Pr 8:17 I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.

Which is the reason God didn't create Robots in the beginning and placed a "CHOICE" before Adam/Eve, to sin, and us a choice to be free from sin,

And if the "WILL" is there, God will saved, if it's not, God won't save,


Ro 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?


In a "nutshell", it's all about "LOVE".