Freedom/Foreknowledge and Ockham's way out

Knowledge: That which is known!

For God, All that can be known is known!

For man, All that has been revealed to man, is Known. That which man does not know must be believed by the man. That is why "FAITH is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen (known)" Our faith is based on knowledge, however, since we are 2000 years separated from the appearance of God among men, all we have is the knowledge of those who wrote about those days. We today do not have their knowledge we have stories upon which to base our faith in God! Those stories are sufficient unto our salvation through faith!

 

JN 20:29 Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

What does the Greek say?
Because you have seen me, you know; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.

john.

 

True belief is based upon knowledge provided, that is, related facts that were experienced by others, but without substantiating experience with facts. Whereas, knowledge is facts experienced. You can pass on your knowledge, but your cannot pass on your experience.

The difference is this, as a youth we were always passengers in our parents automobiles, as such we gained knowledge of the automobile. As we grew older we became more interested in sitting in the driver's seat, so we would get behind the wheel and pretend we were driving the car. We were gaining knowledge that would prepare us for the time when we would be permitted to actually drive the car with parental supervision. All of what we gained was only knowledge preparing us. It was not until the car was under our control that we gained the EXPERIENTIAL knowledge of driving a car! Everything that preceded the Experiential knowledge was FAITH knowledge, knowledge that when it became our turn to experience, that we would perform well....most of us do!

 

bravo for a stimulating OP!

 

I still do not see what is wrong about my argument and I think that the consequence of my argument is that God's foreknowledge does indeed rob us of our freedom to choose.

I would like to change P1 to "Andre will have tea after supper on May 20, 2006". The problem with the world series version of P1 is that it does not clearly isolate out freedom of choice - the Royals will obviously choose to try to win the Series, but factors beyond their control might thwart their goal.

Let's try to be clear. I would assert that P1 might be an item of knowledge in God's mind "right now" (i.e. on 16 May 2005). Do you agree with this? I do realize that my question contains a number of implicit assumptions, such as the assumption that one can talk of God as having a "knowledge state" at a specific point in time and that the future is an object of possible knowledge for God. As I alluded to earlier, I am a little unconvinced that there is "a" future for God to know about.

If P1 is in fact an item of knowledge in God's mind "right now", then how can I have free will? If God is not confined to the "timeline", I certainly am. Is my freedom to give up tea completely not compromised by the fact that, on 16 May 2005, God holds P1 in his mind as a "true fact". If God knows that I will drink tea on the date in question and, if in any sense at all, we can say that God knows this right now, has not my freedom been taken away to, say, drive my car into a brick wall when a Celine Dion song comes on the radio on my way home from work tonight (thus doing myself in and not being in a position to have anything to drink on 20 May 2006)?

My sense is that you will say there is something I am not "getting" about the whole truthmaker argument. That may be so. If so, please try to explain.

 

Hello Brandon:

I made a key error: When I read your original post, I understood that you supported the "Okhamist" view. I now realize you were actually disagreeing with it.

Cheers,

Andre

 

You haven't seen the movie "the Passion" that clearly depicts that God the Son experienced "bleeding". Yes, HE KNOWS!

 

God the father is spirit! Spirit does not bleed! Bleeding is of the flesh, Jesus, who is God the son, came to us in the flesh so there could be a blood atonement for sin. That does not mean that his spirit bled too! His spirit mourned over those whom he loved so much. The Father who is spirit, mourned for his creation, even grieving that He had made man.

It is not I that is in trouble regarding the Trinity, I am well grounded in it!

 

Absolutely YES!

Correct.

God's foreknowledge is "real"

God's ability to give man free will and thereby disconnect HIMSELF from committing the rebellion and/or obedience of man is REAL.

God's blessing and praise for "good works" is real and legit. See Matt 25

God's condemnation for rebellion is "real" and legit. See Matt 23 end of the chapter.

The fact that it "takes God to BE God" does not change these bounary points.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Hello Bob:

How does this work? I have argued that if God knows in advance that I will do "X" (even if X is a sin), my freedom to do otherwise is taken away. Please refer to my previous posts. Can you point out what is wrong with my argument?

I am presently of the mind that we cannot reconcile free will with God's foreknowledge with the conceptual tools at our disposal. Perhaps some new, as yet undiscovered concept will resolve this problem. I would humbly ask that you directly criticize my argument. In other words, please tell me where I am wrong whether or not you provide your own additional material.

 

Hello Andre.

I do not believe in free will but that aside for now I do not see why your freedom of action is impaired by the foreknowledge of God. Even though a thing is certain to be, to God, it is only certain because He knows the future based on what people freely choose to do.

By self-will that is all and God knows the future choices you will make with certainty but that choice was yours. Determined by your desires.
What about if there was no God? Since what you will do in the future you will do in the future certainly then again you have no freedom to do otherwise whether it is witnessed before hand or not.

Does this help?

john.

 

I do not believe in free will but that aside for now I do not see why your freedom of action is impaired by the foreknowledge of God. Even though a thing is certain to be, to God, it is only certain because He knows the future based on what people freely choose to do.

By self-will that is all and God knows the future choices you will make with certainty but that choice was yours. Determined by your desires.
What about if there was no God? Since what you will do in the future you will do in the future certainly then again you have no freedom to do otherwise whether it is witnessed before hand or not.

Does this help?

john. </font>[/QUOTE]Hello John:

I think you are (understandably) attracted by the intuition that God can know the future "passively" (i.e. without interfering with free will). I think, though, when one considers the necessary implications of such a view, there is a problem of logical inconsistency. Rather than repeat what I have said, I would ask you to point out the specific flaw in the argument I made in a couple of previous posts. I would humbly ask you (and others) to "go beyond" the admitted appeal of the point you are making and consider whether it generates a contradiction when its implications are worked out.

As to the "if there is no God" point: I do not really know my own future, I only know my intentions. So there is a big difference between my intention do "X" and my certain foreknowledge that I will do X. The former does not defintively "pin down" the course of my life while the latter clearly does.

By the way, I am not unaware of the "philosophical" problem of free will. I am also curious as to why you reject it. Thanks for your reply.

 

What if God knows in advance that you will freely choose to do X instead of doing otherwise?

 

Have you ever seen a spirit? Have you ever seen spirit blood?

That should answer any questions you may have. But just in case, when you cut yourself, does your spirit bleed?

 

What if God knows in advance that you will freely choose to do X instead of doing otherwise? </font>[/QUOTE]As I have argued in previous posts, this possibility does not really work out - if you consider its implications, I assert that you will find the problem.

I know this is a repetition, but if God can in any sense be said to exist today and if it is factual that God, at this very moment, knows I will have Captain Crunch for breakfast tomorrow morning, what does this say about my status of this moment?

To me it says that in order to preserve the correctness of God's foreknowledge my life path must inevitably lead to my choice of Captain Crunch. It is simply not possible for me to choose Corn Flakes tomorrow morning. This and other choices have been ruled out. After all, what does it mean for me to have freedom of choice? Among other things, it almost certainly means that at 730 am tomorrow morning, I should have the freedom to choose Corn Flakes. But this option has been taken away from me. So I really do not have free will.

Believe me, I understand the intuition to which a number of you appeal - why can't God simply know what my "free choice" will be? I still think that a study of the implications of such a position forces us to give up either God's foreknowledge or our free will.

Perhaps it is also helpful to add that even if God can "escape" the timeline, I am stuck in it. At every instant of time in my life I have certain freedom of choice (not unlimited, I cannot choose to do things that are impossible for me). If we look at things from my perspective at a given point in time, we can see that God's foreknowledge in some way "fixes" my future. In so doing, my choice is necessarily constrained.

 

Hello Andre.

This puts you in a bad position doesn't it? Your understanding has led you to believe God is the Author of sin. Welcome aboard!

Do not give up free will for the wrong reason.
God foreknew everything that would come to pass and this which is coming to pass is what God foresaw. He is as trapped by the future occurring as we are? Since God forsaw you eating your bowl of Captain Crunch before the creation of the world then He had no choice but cause it to come to pass. He has been constained by Captain Crunch?
Since God knew that Adam would fall yet continued with creation when the creation itself assured the entrance of sin, and God must have had an infinite number of choices to create with different outcomes, then it depends on the initial creation that determines what we do. Is that right? In that case free will seems to be a sham but I don't believe it happened that way.
How can God be constained by what He will do? Is it that God's free will is negated by His free will? If in God's foreknowledge He saw a chap named Judas then God would be compelled to create Judas or fail in knowledge? When I said I did not believe in free will I wasn't actually going that far!
But is it true that God was compelled to create Judas? Yes because Judas was part of His plan which plan He always knew so He was compelled to create the plan as He had foreknown it?
You are saying that your free will negates your free will. The option would still be there and your choice of Captain Crunch is what you desire at the time, your choice at the time. Just because God knew that does not change your desire. Your desire was not influenced by Him but that He created the universe where you eat a certain cereal on a certain day does. Is that right?

I do not believe in free will.

john.